Rajoana Hanging case,Punjab on alert,a curious case of Indian system

[deckingraj]

That doesnt make a difference to the loved ones of the killed...Does it ?

No it doesn't ....However scores of terrorists are being killed on day to day basis...This is the only way we can revenge those killings...but what about the killings done by people in system??? Those scum bags are surely being protected by people who offices are in/nearby Delhi, no???

 

[KS]

No it doesn't ....However scores of terrorists are being killed on day to day basis...This is the only way we can revenge those killings...but what about the killings done by people in system??? Those scum bags are surely being protected by people who offices are in/nearby Delhi, no???

Yes they are...just like how Yasin Malik, Syed Geelani and such murderers are being given state security and medical treatment when they have the blood of thousands of Hindus on their hands.

The Kashmiri Pandits were never an influential political group to make their voice heard...but the Sikhs are influential anyet they did not attempt to make their voice heard.

 

[deckingraj]

That's why I mentioned the case of the Punjabi Hindus who suffered at the hands of the Khalistanis, the Kashmiri Pandits who siffered at the hands of Islamic extremists...have they got justice...no.

I;m not saying that is correct...but just its not a victimization of just one community.

ps.: For the bolded part, I will blame the Punjabis as much as I blame anyone. Try not voting for Congress in one election - and by not voting I mean, no Sikh votes for them, and I'm sure Jagdish tytler and all those sacrificial bakras will be lined up for sacrifice in no time.

Nope....BJP was in power for 6 years...How many Tytler's were hanged??? Once you do that you are forcing orthodox hindu's to vote for congress....Keep in mind after 84 Congress won with the biggest margin in the history of Indian politics.....Modi is another example...However atleast he is trying to wash his hands with economic activity(Mind it not trying to justify his acts)...

Yes they are...just like how Yasin Malik, Syed Geelani and such murderers are being given state security and medical treatment when they have the blood of thousands of Hindus on their hands.

The Kashmiri Pandits were never an influential political group to make their voice heard...but the Sikhs are influential anyet they did not attempt to make their voice heard.

I disagree...We have just 13 seats in LS...Apart from that where is the influence??? As far as punjab goes look at the history...We have changed govt. everytime (but this time)....Our issue is that we have only two choices...One in congress and other in Akalis...Both have robbed us...

 

[Bang Galore]

Step by step answer-

A democratically elected Prime minister was killed and his killers got clemancy.I believe CM is junior to PM of India.

Only one woman's sentence(Nalini) was commuted, the others stand as on date thought there is an attempt to have it commuted by the Supreme Court.

No need to hang him and make another Martyr out of a hardliner...Let him enjoy the rest of his life in Jail.. Far too more serious issues are staring at us.

Beant singh was no saint himself.

17 people died in that bomb blast. What value their lives (even if u don't value Beant Singh's)?

Extracts from Rajoana's letter to his foster sister shed light on his thoughts and his reasons for not asking for mercy.

I think his sentence should be commuted to life imprisonment. Since he has already spent 17 years behind bars, this would mean he would be out free very soon. This will help diffuse the tense situation developing in Punjab.

A death sentence commuted would mean life with no parole. The guy won't leave the jail alive.

Commutation is very difficult. The Supreme Court rules for such commutation is very restrictive. Public sentiments will be given no credence, if the Punjab government cites law & order, they will probably be advised to resign & go if they are incapable of governing.

 

[Prometheus]

That doesnt make a difference to the loved ones of the killed...Does it ?

That doesnt make a difference to the loved ones of the killed...Does it ?

Well ,its does when killers are enjoying in parliament.
What happened to sikhs was state terrorism....period.

It doenot matter ,if rajoana is hanged or not........but the youth of Punjab who were born after that dark age of militancy in Punjab will start treating him as saint and our neighbour might take advantage of it.

PS.....30,000 sikhs were killed in Punjab during militancy from total of 40,000 ........many from innocents , many from police side, many from army, and from insurgents side.

 

[KS]

Nope....BJP was in power for 6 years...How many Tytler's were hanged??? Once you do that you are forcing orthodox hindu's to vote for congress....Keep in mind after 84 Congress won with the biggest margin in the history of Indian politics.....Modi is another example...However atleast he is trying to wash his hands with economic activity(Mind it not trying to justify his acts)...

I disagree...We have just 13 seats in LS...Apart from that where is the influence??? As far as punjab goes look at the history...We have changed govt. everytime (but this time)....Our issue is that we have only two choices...One in congress and other in Akalis...Both have robbed us...

Well what can I say, except repeat Indian legal system need a bottom-up revamp ?

p.s. Regarding Modi, lets not divert the topic as I disagree with your inference there.

 

[Nalwa]

And coming to the other side - to those defending Rajaona, saying that whether the killers of Sikhs have been punished...have the culprits who butchered thousands of Hindus in Punjab been punished ? Have the killers of Kashmiri pundits been punished..?

That is Indian legal system for you.

I understand where you are coming from, but please can we avoid exaggerations like these here?

 

[KS]

Well ,its does when killers are enjoying in parliament.
What happened to sikhs was state terrorism....period.

I disagree...it wasn't state terrorism because it was not a unilateral show of violence. What happened in Punjab is not black and white to just blame any one group squarely..its in shades of grey with each side having culpability in it. Let's not forget that.

It doenot matter ,if rajoana is hanged or not........but the youth of Punjab who were born after that dark age of militancy in Punjab will start treating him as saint and our neighbour might take advantage of it.

So because of that fear can we just stop punishing all criminals ?

I stand with every Sikh in demanding that culprits who indulged in 84 riots be punished..I even feel that he (Rajaona) be granted life sentence if the Sikhs feel strongly about it.

But saying he will be treated as a sant and that the neighbour will utilize it is like you yourself questioning the patriotism of Sikhs..

PS.....30,000 sikhs were killed in Punjab during militancy from total of 40,000 ........many from innocents , many from police side, many from army, and from insurgents side.

I feel the numbers are bloated. Even if they are true..as I said blame rests with both sides and it must be acknowledged as such.

 

[deckingraj]

Only one woman's sentence(Nalini) was commuted, the others stand as on date thought there is an attempt to have it commuted by the Supreme Court.

Doesn't make a difference...Whether only one women or more...If law is same for all then it should be same for all....If humanitarian grounds were taken up there then not sure why it can't be put here...

17 people died in that bomb blast. What value their lives (even if u don't value Beant Singh's)?

Then probably you have failed to get the vibe of the argument...No one is justifying killings of Beant Singh...Even if he was a scum bag still no one has right to kill him...The point is that were there only those 17 killings that happened in Punjab??? What about the thousands of killings of other innocents who were rumbled by the state??? Why is nation so charged up only on these 17 people???

A death sentence commuted would mean life with no parole. The guy won't leave the jail alive.

Not really...Anyhow that is not the point of debate...

Commutation is very difficult. The Supreme Court rules for such commutation is very restrictive. Public sentiments will be given no credence, if the Punjab government cites law & order, they will probably be advised to resign & go if they are incapable of governing.

Again a little illogical...If there is something that disturbs the law and order and the issue avoidable then one should go for it...Punjab govt. has the power to create jallianwala bagh incidents and in fact 100 times on a larger scale...If that is what you mean by showing spine then i have little to argue...

 

[Subramanian]

Nope....BJP was in power for 6 years...How many Tytler's were hanged??? Once you do that you are forcing orthodox hindu's to vote for congress....Keep in mind after 84 Congress won with the biggest margin in the history of Indian politics.....Modi is another example...However atleast he is trying to wash his hands with economic activity(Mind it not trying to justify his acts)...



I disagree...We have just 13 seats in LS...Apart from that where is the influence??? As far as punjab goes look at the history...We have changed govt. everytime (but this time)....Our issue is that we have only two choices...One in congress and other in Akalis...Both have robbed us...

Hanging Tytler and all wont make orthodox hindus vote for Congress,People sympathized with Indra Gandhi and thats why they voted for the Congress,same thing happened with Rajiv Gandhi's death too.

I understand where you are coming from, but please can we avoid exaggerations like these here?

yeah it wasn't that bad but the whole idea for me that hindus and sikhs in Punjab ll be at each other's throats is sickening for me.

 

[deckingraj]

I feel the numbers are bloated. Even if they are true..as I said blame rests with both sides and it must be acknowledged as such.

This argument holds no ground...You are comparing terrorist with state...Terrorist has no constitutional jurisdiction to respect...However state cannot and shouldn't forget that part...A terrorist will not hesitate to kill innocents to prove a point...If state follow the norm then what is the difference???

Hanging Tytler and all wont make orthodox hindus vote for Congress,People sympathized with Indra Gandhi and thats why they voted for the Congress,same thing happened with Rajiv Gandhi's death too.

You missed the point..if Sikhs unite against congress then this will be a fodder for getting votes on communal ground from orthodox Hindus...

 

[Bang Galore]

Doesn't make a difference...Whether only one women or more...If law is same for all then it should be same for all....If humanitarian grounds were taken up there then not sure why it can't be put here...

No clemency was asked for & simply cannot be given here. How can a mercy petition not exist but still be considered? This gentleman also has shown no remorse & no court will take that as positive factor when weighing clemency.

Then probably you have failed to get the vibe of the argument...No one is justifying killings of Beant Singh...Even if he was a scum bag still no one has right to kill him...The point is that were there only those 17 killings that happened in Punjab??? What about the thousands of killings of other innocents who were rumbled by the state??? Why is nation so charged up only on these 17 people???

Kind of irrelevant. Beant Singh was the head of the government fighting an insurgency, what do you think he should have done? So, the state is at fault ?,which is true then as an argument even of Kasab (- if India had not killed Kashmiris & solved Kashmir issue then Kasab would not have been brainwashed). No end to that line of argument.

Why also then should the nation be so charged up with the death of those on 26/11; a small number when compared to those that have died in Kashmir? What kind of suicidal argument is that?

Not really...Anyhow that is not the point of debate...

Actually really. The Supreme Court made it clear that life is life & as the Nalini case has shown, the Courts are not inclined to give a second commutation ( the first being from death to life).

Again a little illogical...If there is something that disturbs the law and order and the issue avoidable then one should go for it...Punjab govt. has the power to create jallianwala bagh incidents and in fact 100 times on a larger scale...If that is what you mean by showing spine then i have little to argue...

Actually your argument has no basis in law. The Supreme Court has made it clear that extraneous political reasoning (including law & order arguments)will not be acceptable as a reason for commutation of a death sentence. Maybe you should read that carefully.

In any case that is a silly argument. You are suggesting that vested interests only have to up the tension meter to get what they want. How crazy is that? Can pretty much wind up the state then, since the state is pretty much useless in implementing anything due to fear of the mob. Mobs in India are a dime a dozen, no case, no judgment will ever be free of that reasoning if u go down that path.

 

[livingdead]

You missed the point..if Sikhs unite against congress then this will be a fodder for getting votes on communal ground from orthodox Hindus...

Tell me why it has not happened due to strategic voting of musims against BJP. Has it united hindus to vote BJP?
Nope.
Even during communal frenzy of 90s along with charisma of Vajpayee, BJP barely got few seats ahead of congress but nowhere near majority.

 

[Nalwa]

Well all things said and done, the Rajoana case shows that there are still festering wounds on the Sikh psychic, directly or indirectly caused by the events of the last 30 years. It again points to fault-lines in our democracy. Sometimes the state forgets its own principles and its tough to differentiate between the state and the criminal. You might say the Sikhs are unpatriotic or you may say they are the most patriotic, but wrongs were committed by the state, excesses were carried out and rights were tramples upon.

This may not be evident from the relative prosperity of Punjab, but deep within many Sikh youth hold grudges. They might simply be busy with carrying on with the business of life but scratch the surface and emotions will burst out. Almost everybody who saw the 80s knows a budding student, a bright scholar or a family member or a neighbor who picked up a gun and ended up in an encounter. Or another who was picked up late by the police, never to be seen again. And indirect result is the continued unabated migration of Jatt Sikhs, the backbone of Punjab. Stemming from a relative mistrust of the sate, a sense of alienation and of course stories of the better life abroad, the Jatt youth at some level do not trust they will find reasonable employment in India. And about 99% of Sikhs abroad share feelings that could be describes as unpatriotic. And these people are closely linked with their brethren back home. So what they feel and express is bound to impact what Sikhs in India feel.

I only hope the govt./state/people in power can learn from their mistakes and avoid such a turn of events in the future. Punjab was irreversibly changed in the 80s, hope the same doesn't happen for any other state or community.

 

[deckingraj]

First of all i want to thank you for putting up a good argument...Atleast you are putting some logic..Now let me reply..

No clemency was asked for & simply cannot be given here. How can a mercy petition not exist but still be considered? This gentleman also has shown no remorse & no court will take that as positive factor when weighing clemency.

You are absolutely right about the situation as far as the law of the land is concerned...i have not once challenged it..

Kind of irrelevant. Beant Singh was the head of the government fighting an insurgency, what do you think he should have done?

Sorry to say but this is epic wrong...On one hand you are justifying acts of Beant Singh but on the same side you are ridiculing act of this chap who killed him due to outrage..Why are you doing this??? Are you saying that the state which is suffering from terrorism has the right to kill innocents in order to curb terrorism???

So, the state is at fault ,which is true as an argument even of Kasab (- if India had not killed Kashmiris & solved Kashmir issue then Kasab would not have been brainwashed). No end to that line of argument.

There is no end to it if you don't want to see it....There is no analogy b/w Kasab and guy in question here...Looking at your intellectual level i can easily say you know where i am coming from...Still you want to me to write let me know, i will....

Actually really. The Supreme Court made it clear that life is life & as the Nalini case has shown, the Courts are not inclined to give a second commutation ( the first being from death to life).

Once again you are not getting my point...I not for once is saying that our courts are partial...

Actually your argument has no basis in law. The Supreme Court has made it clear that extraneous political reasoning (including law & order arguments)will not be acceptable as a reason for commutation of a death sentence. Maybe you should read that carefully.

As said we are on different pages...You are citing judicial system here and i am talking about the political system...

In any case that is a silly argument. You are suggesting that vested interests only have to up the tension meter to get what they want. How crazy is that? Can pretty much wind up the state then, since the state is pretty much useless in implementing anything due to fear of the mob. Mobs in India are a dime a dozen, no case, no judgment will ever be free of that reasoning if u go down that path.

It is not a silly argument...However unfortunately people like you have the spine to say that law of land must prevail but at the same time back the state for breaking it like anything...Read my previous arguments on the topic...Why people have so much resent??? Please get your facts straight....There is no vested interests here...it is a people's movement and not a political one.....People are angry because till date they have not seen any conviction in 84 rights and scores of human rights violation during Beant and Gill Era...However when it comes to put the writ of Law and Order they do see putting killers of IG and Beant Singh to gallows and people across nation citing all the things in the book to prove how important it is to let the law takes it own coarse...Hypocrisy at its best!!!