The A-5
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RAFALE'S MINI ENCYLOPEDIA FOR IT'S FANBOYZ
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Jason bourne
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DrSomnath999
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DEBUNKING OF CHINESE WET DREAMS ABOUT J 10B SUPERIOTY OVER RAFALE
Chinese claims that i quote
I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,
ans:
well
1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power,
but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif
AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module
well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??
As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.
also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source
)
in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment
meanwhile
rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.
advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar
1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)
2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules
in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission
4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.
5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further
6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming
7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation
Conclusion
U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese
II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES
ans:
& thats absolutely B.S
J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
Optimized airframe
Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
Hexcel Composites - France
Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial
III)BETTER RAM COATING
Ans:
another garbage assumption!!
rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
photoshop pics only.
infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
like external refuelling probe ,
IV)DSI
ANs:
yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade
& fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.
But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around
MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have
V)136 Kn ENGINE
ans:
WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .
infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine
u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane
which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to
J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter
other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines
1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no
2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels
3) it's better engine TBO
4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a
VI)Mach 2 speed
Ans:
another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .
well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed
VII)20300 m service ceiling
ANS:
i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ
well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's
kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest
BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ)
&
MICA IR
bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.
& for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty
Chinese claims that i quote
I)The J-10B incorporates 1200 T/R AESA, which is larger than the 880 T/R RBE-2,
ans:
well
1st of all there is a lot of uncertanity about whether J10b really poses AESA or PESA .ok lets us assume what NIET claims is
correct that J10b indeed has an AESA radar but still we dont have any accurate infos about it's specification like detection range ,scan rate ,peak power,
but we do get some idea about china's AESA radar from this chinese source that it may be having 1152 T/R modules
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055450.gif
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055619.gif
http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard/uploads/20110723111055270.gif
AESA radar for J-10B will have 1152 T/R module
well it's didn't signify any thing about it's detection range ,scan rate ,peak power, T/R modules compostion whther GaAs or GaN ??
As the article described, the aesa radar configuration can be changed according to the nose size of the aircraft, for example, different T/R number for J-10 and J-11 .But still a long way to go for china to build an AESA radar of a fighter comparable in technology with US or European standard especially in terms of LPI(low probabilty of intercept) & electronic jamming.
also J 10b radar which we saw in net is a test model of AESA radar not a full production AESA radar which has around 8 IFF
dipole antenna in the main array each having capabilty of handling 2 targets at the same time which means 16 targets simultaneosly(according to WIKIpedia which the chinese members often say a very reliable source
) in comparsiion RBE 2 aesa radar can track upto 40 air targets in look down & look up aspects in all weather under intense electronic environment
meanwhile
rafale though claimed to have 1000 T/R modules but Pics say it has around 880 T/R modules but that doesnt mean J10's aesa radar becomes superior as greater size radar may be powerful but that doesnt mean technologically superior.
Well the quality of /or technology used to built T/R module of an AESA radar is more important than numbers as it should be more reliable .Well Su 30 mki bars radar even if it's a PESA radar is a very powerful radar with long detection range but it is technologically inferior to AESA radar.
advantage of RBE 2 AESA radar
1) SAR (synthetic aperature mode)
2)MMIC (mono lithic microwave integrated circuits )/GaAs (gallium arsenide) technology T/R modules
in future it may be built with GAllium nitride modules with sat com abilty
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
3) it creates a 3 dimensional ground map covering wide area forward of the aircraft during low altitude penetration mission
4) It's has much better LPI which is more important in todays aerial combat as todays fighter /Awacs ESM (electronic support
measures) or RWR (radar warning receiver) system are more powerful in detecting radar waves of fighter aircraft exposing it's cover or location in air which can be fatal in aerial combat.
5) It along with spectra system increases rafale's electronic jamming capabilty even further
6) enhanced detection of low observable targets & improved resistance to electronic jamming
7) much better 5th gen System core / COTS for faster computation
Conclusion
U just cant compare the technological experience of china in buiding AESA radar with the french Thales which have decades of experience in building radar starting from Mirage 2000 to rafale rbe radar.If thats was not the case why would have pak airforce officials died to have french avionics in their JF17 in comparision to chinese
II)INCREASED CONCENTRATION OF COMPOSITES
ans:
& thats absolutely B.S
J10b' s composites concentration is no way greater than Rafale infact dassault itself claims rafale's composite concentration is more than 70 %
Optimized airframe
Hexcel company of france which supplies composties to rafale are pioneer in developing composites for aircraft meanwhile god knows what is the standard of chinese composites .????
Hexcel Composites - France
Hexcel.com - Carbon fiber and composites for aerospace, wind energy and industrial
III)BETTER RAM COATING
Ans:
another garbage assumption!!
rafale has much high quality RAM coating than j10 ,and what cheap quality RAM coating china uses we can see from the
pics of J20 when white flecks or patches are visible on plane surface when RAM shed off it's surface.Only J20 looks shiny in
photoshop pics only.
infact RAM coating can be seen in such places in rafale where u dont find in j10b
like external refuelling probe ,
IV)DSI
ANs:
yes 1 innovative thing for J10b
DSI has an advantage in performance & some aspects in stealth as it removes the gap present in between the diverter blade
& fuselarge of the plane.but to be fair enough it has no major role in combat.
But some analyst says DSI cant withstand mach 2+ Speeds which is yet to be proven ???? optimum speed for DSI is around
MACh 1.6-1.7 like that we see in jf 17 & F-35 So it needs to be seen can J10b achieve mach 2+ speed which J10A claims to have
V)136 Kn ENGINE
ans:
WS 10A 132 Kn engine right from the very beginnning has been under lot of scrutiny though chinese are determined to induct it no matter how good or bad it performs.Though WS 10b has been boasting of 136 Kn along with TVC which is still in development .Yes they have inducted WS 10a engines in J11b & even j-15 is going to have those engines ,but those are twin engine fighters
meanwhile inducting a single INDIGENIOUS engine fighter hasnt been so easy for chinese may be inducting a twin engine fighter with indigeniuos engines is more safer & reliable in comparision to a single indigenous engine fighter.Well same goes for WS 13engines i think for Jf17 also .& that too rumours ofchinese buying russian engines keep on popping in the media or internet every now & then .
infact serious misconception exists in the mind of our chinese friends about WS 10A 136kn advantage over Scnema M88 3 engine
u should understand thrust to weight ratio of plane is more important than thrust of engine of a plane
which rafale Thrust/weight ratio : 1.10 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) excels in comparision to
J10b Thrust/weight ratio : 0.96 (with AL-31); 1.017 (with WS-10A) thaanks to it's twin engines fighter
other advantages of Rafale's M88 3 /M88 eco engines
1) it can supercruise but WS 10A no
2) it has far less IR signature than WS 10A thanks to it's 2 cooling channels
3) it's better engine TBO
4) scenema FADEC is much superior to WS 10a
VI)Mach 2 speed
Ans:
another funny ideology i think one should understand that plane cannot attain mach 2 speed every time if it does that it would be through help of after burner the plane would ran out of entire fuel stored in it & it would increase plane's IR
signature a lot which would be visible by enemy' IRST like rafale's FSO which is claimed to be capable of detecting IR signatures of plane from 120km .
well it is much better to have supercruise planes which doent need after burners to maintain speed which rafale has .If thats
the case then Mirage 2000 which has a top speed well above mach2+ would be superior to F-35 which has mach 1.7 as top speed
VII)20300 m service ceiling
ANS:
i would rather say it's vintage aerial combat ideology our chinese friends beleive that having a faster plane with higher ceiling would help them to release BVR missiles at such height which would give their BVR missiles more kinetic energy with more range & they would destroy rafale with it's SD 10 A or B misssiles at much longer range & rafale pilots would be sitting ducks & would not be having any self protection suite like SPECTRA in order to save their A$$es .LOOLLZ
well it's true that indeed BVR missiles range increase at high altitudes & with increased speed but it doent increase it's
kill probabilty of BVraam missile . Infact Kill probabilty of a missile depends upon the quality of seeker(IR or EM) of missile & abilty of ECM of enemy target plane rather than range of a missile.Meanwhile Rafale has one of the most deadliest
BVRAAM of this planet the Meteor worlds 1st ramjet powered missile having one of the largest No escape zone (NEZ)
&
MICA IR
bvaam missile which is one of longest IR missile availabe right now.
& for self protection against chinese missiles rafale has SPECTRA electronic warfare suite which i hope doent need introduction as everyone knows about it's capabilty
DrSomnath999
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Dassault Rafale Solo Display 36th International Sanicole Airshow 2012
Dassault Rafale Solo Display 36th International Sanicole Airshow 2012 on Vimeo
Dassault Rafale Solo Display 36th International Sanicole Airshow 2012 on Vimeo
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DrSomnath999
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an old article but very interesting
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
Thales has revealed the first details of its new technology roadmap for the Dassault Rafale's radar and electronic warfare systems, which it believes could create opportunities to equip several other aircraft types over the next 20 years.
The new concept allows for the insertion of future technologies, such as gallium nitride transmit/receive modules, by using a so-called "cloud" architecture, says Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, head of electronic combat systems for Thales Airborne Systems.
Likely to be available within the next several years, the new T/R modules would enable Thales to reduce the depth of the antenna on the Rafale's RBE2 active electronically scanned array radar. Within a period of 10-12 years, it could also allow additional sensors to be embedded elsewhere within an aircraft's structure to enhance its overall sensor coverage.
The advance would also deliver increases in processing power, bandwidth capability and electronic counter-countermeasures characteristics, Thales claims.
For the Rafale, Chaltiel says a key benefit of the "cloud" concept would be to allow technologies to be added without having to re-qualify all the software used in the fighter's radar and Spectra EW packages. "The key is the systems knowledge - the processing power coupled with the radar and overall aircraft integration," he says.
The same technology could also be adopted for use by maritime patrol aircraft and airborne early warning platforms, or even offered as part of future mid-life upgrades for the Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen under a possible co-operation agreement with other European radar manufacturers, Chaltiel believes. "Thales is ready and open for co-operation," he says.
French industry and the nation's DGA defence procurement agency have made combined investments worth over €1 billion ($1.2 billion) in sensor development for the Rafale over the last decade or so, and Chaltiel confirms that the nation is "already working on advanced technology demonstrators for the future".
Meanwhile, Thales will in August deliver the first of three production-standard AESA RBE2 arrays to the defence ministry to support test activities with the Rafale. The new sensor will enter squadron service in 2012 as part of France's December 2009 order for a fourth tranche of 60 Rafales.
"The system is far different, in range and capacity of intercept in a multi-threat environment," Chaltiel says.
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
COURTESY: MR DARE
THANK U FOR THE INFO MATE
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
Thales has revealed the first details of its new technology roadmap for the Dassault Rafale's radar and electronic warfare systems, which it believes could create opportunities to equip several other aircraft types over the next 20 years.
The new concept allows for the insertion of future technologies, such as gallium nitride transmit/receive modules, by using a so-called "cloud" architecture, says Pierre-Yves Chaltiel, head of electronic combat systems for Thales Airborne Systems.
Likely to be available within the next several years, the new T/R modules would enable Thales to reduce the depth of the antenna on the Rafale's RBE2 active electronically scanned array radar. Within a period of 10-12 years, it could also allow additional sensors to be embedded elsewhere within an aircraft's structure to enhance its overall sensor coverage.
The advance would also deliver increases in processing power, bandwidth capability and electronic counter-countermeasures characteristics, Thales claims.
For the Rafale, Chaltiel says a key benefit of the "cloud" concept would be to allow technologies to be added without having to re-qualify all the software used in the fighter's radar and Spectra EW packages. "The key is the systems knowledge - the processing power coupled with the radar and overall aircraft integration," he says.
The same technology could also be adopted for use by maritime patrol aircraft and airborne early warning platforms, or even offered as part of future mid-life upgrades for the Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen under a possible co-operation agreement with other European radar manufacturers, Chaltiel believes. "Thales is ready and open for co-operation," he says.
French industry and the nation's DGA defence procurement agency have made combined investments worth over €1 billion ($1.2 billion) in sensor development for the Rafale over the last decade or so, and Chaltiel confirms that the nation is "already working on advanced technology demonstrators for the future".
Meanwhile, Thales will in August deliver the first of three production-standard AESA RBE2 arrays to the defence ministry to support test activities with the Rafale. The new sensor will enter squadron service in 2012 as part of France's December 2009 order for a fourth tranche of 60 Rafales.
"The system is far different, in range and capacity of intercept in a multi-threat environment," Chaltiel says.
Thales reveals 'cloud' concept for Rafale radar technologies
COURTESY: MR DARE
THANK U FOR THE INFO MATE
DrSomnath999
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6 GBU, 3 Mica:
(Source: Air&Cosmos special edition)
COURTESY:OLYBRIUS
THANK U FOR THE PICS MATE
(Source: Air&Cosmos special edition)
COURTESY:OLYBRIUS
THANK U FOR THE PICS MATE
sancho
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Link
This news has to interesting points for India, one after loosing the Swiss deal, a hold in the UAE, this decision is another big downer for Dassault and puts more pressure on them to seal the Indian deal, which puts us in the better position to negotiate.
The other point is, that IF Russia could get back in the competition, their offer to Brazil beeing another partner in the Pak Fa program could be renewed. Russias defence relations to Brazil are increasing and this would be a big chance for Brazil too. See also:
Link
Abingdonboy
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Brazil is really taking the pi$$! This entire saga really is an anatomy in incompetance and unprofessional selection procedures.
Broccoli
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Fighters with DSI can achieve mach 2, but better question is that how many times there has been air-to-air fights in mach 2+ speeds?
Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet
There has been rumors that future variants of Rafale could use DSI instead of the conventional intakes it has today. It seems that most new fighters will use DSI and manufacturers are looking to incorporate it to future variants of their existing fighters.
SAAB has been studying DSI too.
1000VA
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No way....Its Rafale itself.Look at the picture once again its landing on a aircraft carrier and you say it is Typhoon
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The A-5
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No way....Its Rafale itself.Look at the picture once again its landing on a aircraft carrier and you say it is Typhoon
He removed the first picture afterwards. There used to be a pic of Typhoon above the Rafale-M pic.
Otherwise why do you think @SpArK thanked my post?
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sancho
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The problem in many competitions today is, that the countries want more than they can afford. Swiss had no money (and not even a real requirement for fighters), but thought they could procure EF or Rafales. Brazils growth is stumbling a bit and there are too many players with different preferences (Air force wants F18SH, Embraer Gripen, the Government Rafale).
arp2041
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Really?? If this is true, than India should oppose any Russian move to make Brazil another partner in the program as this will considerably reduce our say in the project, this after we are giving 50% of money for developmental costs & have already pledged $30 billion for the entire project.
sancho
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They would partner the Pak Fa, while we have our own version the FGFA and those parts that India jointly funded and might be procured by Brazil, would benefit India as well, not to mention that higher numbers also reduces the unit costs.
However, I would prefer them to join AMCA and IAC 2 development, althought they might not have the money at the moment.
DrSomnath999
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Hmm
so u have indeed googled nicely eh!!! Good
actually i had also seen the same link before i had posted this point & thats why i had said "that is yet to be proven"????
what i mean is it is still not proven that DSI cant withstand such speeds like MACH 2 speeds??So it can attain such speeds but some analyst say it can have aerodyamic penalty at such speeds .But j20 is a twin engine fighter i think it indeed can attain such speeds but it is no compulsion /mandatory thing that only twin engine fighter can attain such speed & single engine dsi fighter couldnt .
But at end
CONCLUSION
it is still not proven that "DSI cant attain mach 2 speeds"as the link u posted above indeed speaks DSI can achieve mach2 speeds but ideal value is around mach 1.7-mach 1.8
There has been rumors that future variants of Rafale could use DSI instead of the conventional intakes it has today. It seems that most new fighters will use DSI and manufacturers are looking to incorporate it to future variants of their existing fighters.
SAAB has been studying DSI too.
1) rafale:
yes they are going to redesign air intake for it's new engine thats true but whther it is DSI or not thats not clear yet.
We will have to wait
2) SAAB
the pics u posted above doent look like classical bump style DSI intake more resembles Y duct intake
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