Project "AZM" :Building Knowledge Base & Road Map

[CriticalThought]

Ok.. too much derailing the thread.
there could be some hidden motives. But Italy had been fascist country. The rights of workers and students are important there. before 2014, they had law that you can never fire your employee..
Anyway, Italy got funded by UN and EU as compensation for that too. Even now when they get no fund but still they induct Asian, African, eastern EU students and teach them free.

First of all there is no thread derailment here. Calling out people who are making slaves out of Pakistanis in the name Azm is hardly thread derailment.

Secondly, mark my word, these free benefactors will never teach you so much that you become independent. They will only teach you enough so you can serve them.

 

[Armchair]

I think the method of development followed should be based on the blue print of the nuclear program. In addition, focus on sending students abroad has little to no meaning in the world of the internet. What can be learned from abroad is not at the university level but in actually working at places like LM, Boeing, Airbus, etc.

So, we should get the sharpest brains we have at the age of 20, and pair them with experts with industry experience, who we will have to pay good money to come to Pak and run the thousand and one subsystem projects.

Now, this has to be at the grand level of:
1. Metallurgy
2. IT
3. Aerodynamics
4. "Skunk works"
5. and various other fields.

It is, like the nuclear program, simply a matter of running these various subsystem projects, and making sure they deliver, and then putting them all together to create the end product.

With the JFT and nuclear program projects, Pak has the experience needed to get the job done. The question is, can the people doing it be motivated the way the nuclear program workers were motivated to work?

 

[JamD]

I've taken the liberty to summarize in one place what I thought was looking like a coherent plan. Apologies for omissions.

Project Goal:

build from ground up HumanCapital and TechnoCapital and at the sametime leverage what is already out there.. creating a Synthesis which creates a Industerialismo...both in Thinking and Doing.

1-Short-Term Plan:

We need mature professionals at PAC. These are Pakistanis all over the world with PhDs and who have worked in international aerospace companies. We have some right now but maybe 10-15 in total lol. These people even in small numbers can have a BIG impact. On how to attract mature professionals:
No need to drain the foreign reserves dry. They (we) don't want palaces and special treatment. We are Pakistanis and know our auqat (worth).
1. We need job security
2. We need decent pay. I would wager around 3lakh at least for a fresh PhD.
3. Freedom to research and publish. I understand the need for secrecy but research doesn't do well in isolation. Collaboration requires openness. I think Air University Kamra Campus is a step in the right direction for this. Have some part of researchers that can publish freely. This is very UNLIKE SPD organizations. Their research is extremely local and there is bound to be a lot of inefficiency and duplication.
4. Leaders and managers that have vision and knowledge and not babas that are insecure/jealous.

one of the hurdles in the way will be our own attitude and misguided people who are ill fitted for the top positions they are sitting on. they will bully and discourage new talent, innovations and out of box solutions. if our foreign and local talent is not cared for properly then it will erode and we will be left with empty building and overheads of good for nothing titleholders .

if the channels of communication are open and two way between our talent and the top decision makers then a lot of red tape and bureaucratic bottlenecks can be overcome.
progress is promising Godspeed I say

The babas will not voluntarily let go their positions of powers. So you can:
1. Wait for them to retire in a couple of decades.
2. Make a VERY conscious policy decision to give rapid promotions to talented engineers that prove themselves. This needs to be policy otherwise babas will use it as a tool for favoritism. The babas should not have the power to do these. There should be an independent board of engineers that decides who deserves this.
3. The armed forces need to STOP thinking of these organizations as a place to park dead end career soldiers to live out the rest of their lives. This happens way to often and needs to stop. Nontechnical people have no place leading these organizations.
4. Pecking order of competence needs to be respected. A PhD with 10 years of experience should not be taking orders from a colonel with a masters degrees in war theory or something. Again this needs to be policy. If you're a PhD with 10 years of experience should shouldn't be hired at assistant manager. You should be hired as a general manager at the very least. Respect technical competence.

These things can never happen in SPD organizations I know but thankfully PAC isnt an SPD organization (yet lol).

2-Medium-Term Plan:

This things may or may not help AZM directly.

Now what is expert/scholars for.
They know the theory and advances in that research. They can help with the initial design, by going through theory. (Dr Attiq actually cut, as bullet has ripped through it, the boom part in such a way that it left no stress concentration near hole @JamD and he said he did it after going back to theory). Then they just point out, lets say after you present them results (contours, graph, trends) that whether the physics behind simulation is right or not. Normally they don't know software as much (just 1 or 2).

In west no company set a complete plant for everything. A car manufacturer imports tyres from somewhere else, seats, dashboards, even bonnet or body (BIW), and all that he does is just makes engines and assembly. I worked in a company who just made design and moulds for any new part. They had 40 people just for just design, in one of its office. So imagine people induction per part of car, overall.

Indians are quite far in automotive sector. They are building cheap and standard products. The point is when they need, they can import that workforce to their HAL etc. Then scholar/expert can guide them (as temperature, speed, pressure are different for aircraft so sure), and that workforce is ready for making aircraft and sub system (idk why they messed up).

So I was emphasising that we just need workforce in west to be trained and educated. Run smart city along with. The crumbs from that 'workforce' may return and work in AZM. We cannot compete the schemes, machines, manufacturing technology, etc west have.

Now whose job is that. Its Govt job. To prepare students after FSc for Europeans countries. Lets say Germany. Teach student german, one programming language say Python, then First year courses of the Graduation (all are same in 1st year). Then tech students about culture of the country and norms (1-2 years time). @CriticalThought FSs is the test who is capable or not so no need of separate tests for sending the pupils abroad. For AZM may be your test suggestion is ok.

As the country are fees free or nearly free so Pak govt do not have to spend on public university as much. I repeat, grad education in Pakistan is waste, compared to west. Main reason is we lack Professors and scholar who can teach grad students. However, we have plenty of Masters etc who can teach lower/higher secondary, so that is why we break records of O/A level A grades.

Now, the target countries should be China, Italy, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany. As they are advanced and cheap. Then also target Korea and Japan for their extra ordinary advancement in electronics (their unis are expensive).
This will at least prepare future workforce ready in abroad industries and unis. Can be induced for any project in Pak.
Overall, we will have:
1. Pool of researchers/workforce abroad and some remittance of it in Pak.
2. Then their monetary remittance.
3. Contacts for suppliers, research work, etc
4. Political, social, academic influence.
@StormBreaker @MastanKhan your input Sir

3-Long-Term Plan:

I think the best thing Pakistan can do to improve the productivity of its younger generation is through bringing substantial change to the system of Metric and FSC.
The teaching methods are ineffective, the syllabus is out dated. These books we read, were almost the same a decade or two back. Half of the time , the focus isn't even on learning, it's only about passing the exams. This produces candidates who are unfit for their job. Urdu and English shouldn't be taught past 10th grade. Especially Urdu, this subject is literally of no use past 10th grade because all it really demands of us is writing long summaries of Ghazals and stupid topics of Mehab and Mehboob. what's the use of memorizing all these poets and their autobiographies? Focus of FSC should purely be science subjects instead of literature unless it's your chosen subject.
Another sad thing is that, the bar of marks required to get into a good university is set impossibly high. Such that people who score 80% or even 90%+ are facing immense issues in getting into good universities. There are many talented people who can't rattafy everything they read in books, so a large amount of our youth's talent is wasted because of this.
Oh and more good quality Universities should be made aside from a handful few, to accumulate the maximum graduating youth. After this, we need investment in different job sectors that could generate money. All problems of Pakistan can be solved if Pakistan learns how to utilize its youth well.
I don't know if this is related to AZM project, but hopefully this contributes.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Would be nice to hear any new release on progress of the planning for this not so secret project

What are possibility that Project Azm , a 100% local Pakistani Effort might get merged with the Project Turkey is doing with their partnership with British for the Engine?

Are we also making our own power plant for the platform?

 

[Kabotar]

@airomerix @messiach

 

[StormBreaker]

Would be nice to hear any new release on progress of the planning for this not so secret project

What are possibility that Project Azm , a 100% local Pakistani Effort might get merged with the Project Turkey is doing with their partnership with British for the Engine?

Are we also making our own power plant for the platform?

This thread is meant for expertise building instead of AZM speculations in terms of specs, for that, we have AZM updates thread

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Encouragement is the key to achieve such. A young engineer is anxious, restless, uncertain about future, having responsibilities of family and kitchen, hence can’t study further due to lack of time, motivation but most importantly uncertainty of actually getting hired after post graduate studies or Phds after investing a handsome amount on studies. So PAF must consider sponsoring some gems, book nerds, and creatives, get them on table, give them assurance of providing job if they being sponsored by PAF for studies abroad bore good results in academics as well as experiences. This will give a boost to morales of our students and in turn will encourage them to pursue studies just for the sake of good potential future. To prevent these sponsored students getting away outside after studies, PAF must arrange some sort of specific visa which is based on contract directly between university, embassy of that country and PAF. The contract must highlight that the student has been sponsored by PAF, will not be provided job or nationality unless NOC provided by PAF for a certain period of years. A good measure would be to also sign a contract with student which might result in some of the student’s property in Pakistan seized and handed over to PAF, could be residence or something...

all measures are good but its understandable that there will be some desertion no matter how much economic and emotional cost is imposed on these people.
a certain kind of such individuals who are extremely talented are very selfish and self centered and don't like restrictions and thinking they are better than others they would just do the opposite to their understanding just to spite people. if they are really talented then the western movements might facilitate them to desert us.
we have to acknowledge it as an plausible risk. sending them only to say Russia, China and Turkey will really sap and weed out the opportunists though.

much has been discussed in attracting and retaining the good talent so we can move the discussion.

T
I still think it would be odd for the PAF to hedge its bets on only one basket, especially one as (frankly) untested and unknown as Turkey. We don't 100% know where the current drive from Turkey is even coming from, e.g., is it Erdogan/AKP, or is it systemic? Things can easily take a 180 if Turkey's political leadership changes.

With the Chinese at least, we can always bank on two axioms: (1) we can connect the Chinese to the Gulf in case things get nasty in the Pacific and (2) India's basically now a US ally. While the surface aspects of our ties with China can change, the cold hard interests won't shift.

So, to put it another way, what are the chances that the PAF's ASR for a twin-engine fighter has rolled into the TF-X, and now Project AZM is something else? Perhaps a new baseline?

In China, you have a huge base comprising of working turbofan engines, radars, avionics, etc that you can pull together to develop a new solution. So, what are the chances of also seeing a next-gen single engine fighter to basically supplant the JF-17 (while TF-X replaces the F-16)?

I agree with you.
last time the Western sponsored Coup against Erdogan failed I don't know about future, our concerns are genuine. will Turkey continue with its current course or dismantle its Russian missile defense and request forgiveness from the Americans to be allowed back in the fold. the Turks allegedly didn't show much enthusiasm when PAF leadership approached them to partner with their TF-X program and this is claimed to be one of the reason Pakistan went with its own. if the Turks have a change of heart for better then it is great.

to me the attraction to towards Turks their exposure to Western technology and their edge over our aviation expertise. re question about time and tested reliability and successful partnership of past and present, there is no second opinion about the Chinese my only (ill informed and limited ) hesitation towards Chinese technology is that its a Russian clone of few years back that Russians have moved on from and some alleged leaked, hacked incomplete blueprints of Western technology.
since both are not mutually exclusive I would favor going the Chinese route and on the parallel have working relationship with Turks even if at limited or observer level (if there is any such thing). so I fully agree that PAF must not hedge all its bets on one source only.

I can attest to the fact that merely sending kids abroad to get a degree is a recipe for disaster atleast at the bachelors and masters level. The greatest amount of learning happens when that person works in the industry and comes out of the theoretical world of the academia.
.

when I suggested sending students abroad I had in mind experienced professionals with some PAF or commercial aviation experience who would not only kick start the project beyond the drawing boards but in parallel become teachers and instructors of fresh lot of engineers, designers and technicians.
the only reason they would be sent out will be to complement what their colleagues are doing and have faced a technological barrier which needs to be resolved.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

build from ground up HumanCapital and TechnoCapital and at the sametime leverage what is already out there.. creating a Synthesis which creates a Industerialismo...both in Thinking and Doing.

for me
this is the mission statement of Project Azm

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Now have a look at the Thunder production.. our FTE cost is lower than the Chinese.. which adds up to price/cost of Thunder... if/when we can bring the entire production in PAC this cost shall go down... in other words there is something holding back the transfer of production to PAC... I don't know why that is. Part of the Deal? @airomerix @messiach

its a pleasant surprise if our FTE is lower than Chinese although given the already existing infrastructure and low setup cost the Chinese should've had economies of scale. how did we achieve lower FTE per unit produced is a miracle and I hope the example can be applied to this ambitious project which as you said is a living system and to get it going there will be much more costs to get it going to a point where there is something tangible and breaking even will be realistic in terms of resources spent.

 

[airomerix]

First of all there is no thread derailment here. Calling out people who are making slaves out of Pakistanis in the name Azm is hardly thread derailment.

Secondly, mark my word, these free benefactors will never teach you so much that you become independent. They will only teach you enough so you can serve them.

This is by far the most appalling conspiracy theory I've come across (second to Zaid Hamid's)

You have absolutely no idea how is PAF managing Project AZM. What is going into it. What is Pakistan gaining and giving up throughout the duration of the project.

Nobody should mark your words. Why? Because just 20 years ago, this country was at the brink of becoming a failed state. Today, it has the capacity to manufacture hi-tech gear and state of the art aerospace products.

I know you must be deeply impressed with Australians or wherever you live. But to learn to appreciate the limited R&D Pakistani engineers are striving to achieve.

AZM will be a success. And I hope you dont disappear from the forum once again and miss all the fun.

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

its a pleasant surprise if our FTE is lower than Chinese although given the already existing infrastructure and low setup cost the Chinese should've had economies of scale. how did we achieve lower FTE per unit produced is a miracle and I hope the example can be applied to this ambitious project which as you said is a living system and to get it going there will be much more costs to get it going to a point where there is something tangible and breaking even will be realistic in terms of resources spent.

Brother mine,

Indeed, we both ... same Pak cloth... @The Eagle was correct about right buttion pushing...

Now, regarding the FTE is the overall CostStructure bewteen the two relevant enterprises .. PAC and the Chinese ones....

I did mention in my piece about productivity gains within our FTE and proper employment IT systems.. although PAC is LSS compliant but it can also lead to self deception... and more Chiefs than Indians Syndrome.

Please, do note that our salaries structure, lodging, schooling, educaiton of offsprings, healthcare for the families and then the pensions... you know far better about the LifeCycleCosts of our FTEs...which I did hint in my piece.

The Chinese FTE structure has changed as part of their MilitaryReforms..which were/are not mere technology driven but also cost driven... they too have a pension bumb... just like ours...but of mega ton proportions.

I do appologise if I apear to be counting beans here...but unless we structure our enterprise... shall I dare going as far as sayting our PakArmedForces.. in a FTE Utility and Productivity paradim ... it shall keep us in present CostStructure which is not sustainable even when in couple of years our economy starts about 5% trajectory... but then it is equally PakState/Porvinicial matter as well... which has even least FTE utility/porductivity structure with per capita higher costs of FTEs... and then a MASSIVE PensionBomb which NO One is talking aobut.

Everything, as you know much better than I, is interlinked.

The rise in the Chinese FTE costs due to higher cost of living hence salaries increase pushes lower cost structure enterprises to countries like ours ... hence CPEC SEZs... their aviation industry has also gone massive restructuring not only for better management/alignment but also in reducing cost... which we know very well in our own experience that the Chinese companies will make profit at all costs!

Once again as you know only too well..most of our defence budget goes to salaries/pensions and keeping the machine going hence...the disappointment of many of us, Fanboyz to critics alike ...of not spending much in RnD and bigger, shiny toys...

I do believe that we can achieve much better utility/productivity from our existing cost-structure and have higher output per FTEs..with help of IT-systems..which goes beyond the ERP and other Supply/Produciton Managment System in the play.

What I wish to see is a better integeration of PAC/HIT in the Chinese Supply Chain..for production of things which the Chinese enterprises might be making at higher costs...

Overhead costs, facilities costs, tooling/retooling costs, ...all Should build upto making the overall CostStructure of our FTEs..now whether its calculated as such or not is a QuestionMark. I look at the open data.

The Chinese have adopted the model of entirety of CostStructure and not just direct production FTEs...we see clear application of AcitivityBasedCosting in many of the Chinese SOEs.

Even if we look in the same manner...given our lower salaries and comparatively cheaper cost of living.. our FTE cost is lower.. hence, if the tooling is not barring it... we must try to gain more prodution % for Thunders...with clearly designed/calculated RoI of such an investment ...which must be leveraged for all other projects..inclduing Azm.

If we want to 'break even' then we need to question our CostStructure first!

Creative accounting are not uncommon things in SOEs... hence, I prefer, wish, that Defence related SOEs have AI driven CostStructure/FTE management...cutting out the middleman so to speak.

I do appologise if this piece appears out of place... but then, Brother mine, you pushed the 'button'.

But to create a Sustainable and perhaps SelfSustaining Ecosystem...we need to think more than just a fighter jet... its entire life cycle costs...starting from the first FTE who joins in it.. A DifferentParadigm... boring..but much needed.

Mangus

 

[CriticalThought]

This is by far the most appalling conspiracy theory I've come across (second to Zaid Hamid's)

You have absolutely no idea how is PAF managing Project AZM. What is going into it. What is Pakistan gaining and giving up throughout the duration of the project.

Nobody should mark your words. Why? Because just 20 years ago, this country was at the brink of becoming a failed state. Today, it has the capacity to manufacture hi-tech gear and state of the art aerospace products.

I know you must be deeply impressed with Australians or wherever you live. But to learn to appreciate the limited R&D Pakistani engineers are striving to achieve.

AZM will be a success. And I hope you dont disappear from the forum once again and miss all the fun.

I don't even see the point of your post. I did not say Azm will fail. I did not try to portray how Azm is being run, or will be run. And I have nowhere criticized the honest efforts of Pakistanis in any field.

I have simply tried to present one way in which we can nurture local talent. And I have stated very clearly that in order to achieve Azm, we must learn to stand on our own feet.

Let us review how people around the world have fared in trying to import technological know how. We have the example of Saudi Arabia with their investment of 100 billion dollars, and their sharp rise in R&D output in recent years. Does anyone believe that Saudi Arabia can pull off something like Azm till 2045?

We have the example of India and their various indigenous efforts. Here is a nation that has already sent its brightest to the West, and they have come back to serve India. Does anyone believe India can pull off something like Azm till 2045?

Both India and Saudi Arabia are servile, mentally subjugated nations. Then we have the examples of South Korea, China, and Germany. These are all nations that have a strong educational setup within their own country along with indigenous R&D. None of them have relied on sending students at 12 euros a year to learn advanced technology (note the reference to the post which I replied to, and which you quoted). And especially with China, we have all seen the increased hostility and allegations of stealing technologies.

I work in organizations that have Russian theoretical physicists, French PhDs that I closely interact with. I have personally been involved in a discussion where a Chinese person was rejected just because he belonged to a certain Chinese company. People guard their intellectual property with vengeance, and I have seen this vengeance first hand.

All I am saying, is that we need to change our begging mentality, and rise up us a nation with full confidence in our own abilities.

Finally, my postings on the forum are constrained by a busy schedule.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

You have to build all the testing facilities required to design and validate the design of the 5th gen aircraft right now to even think about having a prototype running down the line.

 

[The Eagle]

did it happen inside Pakistan? that is awesome news.

Yes Chief. In-fact, a military grade processor working with FO and proven to be accurate. 6-8 students demonstrated the skills and there were some special persons present.

 

[The Eagle]

one of the hurdles in the way will be our own attitude and misguided people who are ill fitted for the top positions they are sitting on. they will bully and discourage new talent, innovations and out of box solutions. if our foreign and local talent is not cared for properly then it will erode and we will be left with empty building and overheads of good for nothing titleholders .

if the channels of communication are open and two way between our talent and the top decision makers then a lot of red tape and bureaucratic bottlenecks can be overcome.
progress is promising Godspeed I say

The Babu Mentality with fear of loosing control in respective organization. What I have learnt throughout the experience and even expressed myself in a blunt way that dividing workload, responsibilities & assigning one office to one senior at a time will actually result in far better outcome as compare to a Babu don't wanted to be challenged at all, needs people to bow down every time he/she enters office & a force which continues with buttering while institute produces standard level talent.

The fear of loosing protocol and a king like treatment is the mental issue with them sometimes. These heads actually think that if he isn't supervising more than one department or he has been assigned with one area of supervision while similar cadre official will be looking the other department; they feel like insulted. Most of them are busy and always fighting hard to keep their control regardless of talent, academic & progress loss which cost us more than their egos. Despite of advises as such, professional representations & higher level counseling; most of them couldn't help themselves to stop it. What I am saying is that most of such pedigree in reducing that had such "I am" mentality hence, all I see is possible change. The change on administrative level make take some more years but there is a day to come that we will not just produce competent talent but also a track will be set for no more babus.

Unfortunately, the incompetent supervisors & heads are somehow connected to the influencing & powerful people. As & when they are pinned; you will be receiving calls and even some grievances by friends as well. We really need the most transparent laws this regard. Interference has to go away. Academic level supervision be handed over to the most capable & talented person instead of choosing one that will actually always reply in Yes Sir. What they wanted was a yes man and as their thoughts & capability was only revolving around their own kind; we never had such higher amount of talented people coming out of institutes.

Most of education system was firstly plagued with political based appointments, then corruption and favouritism and in the end, the favour so their relatives kids can be appointed in different government institutes etc after completion of education. What you will find that if there is an opportunity for talented students and a foreign or local entity contacts for the students to be recommended that will be paid back as well as given a career opportunity; Babus will actually then show their real skills of manipulation and selecting the lot that somehow benefits them by any mean... relative, son or daughter, personal benefits and or reference from higher ups that the Babu can utilize in future for some other gains. This is where the capable & eligible candidates dies under the shadow of plagued system.

The picture remained disappointing for decades and been worsening with every passing year. Currently, there is a ray of hope and no doubt, we do have potential as well as the capability but what the youth lack is actually the real time, serious & fair opportunities as well as backing and intelligent supervision.