What's new

Project "AZM" :Building Knowledge Base & Road Map

Overall package FBW,Sensor suit,Comms and sensor fusion is a lot difficult than Engine.F-35 as X-35 flew in 2000,as F-35A flew in 2006 and first production engine was used in 2009 but F-35 got introduced into service in 2015.

No practical chance of success. @StormBreaker post is accurate.
Thanks JamD.
In my personal opinion it's better for us to go on J-31 at this stage and develop it further tailored for our own needs.
To me AZM looks like something we can't do right now.
 
.
Overall package FBW,Sensor suit,Comms and sensor fusion is a lot difficult than Engine.F-35 as X-35 flew in 2000,as F-35A flew in 2006 and first production engine was used in 2009 but F-35 got introduced into service in 2015.


Thanks JamD.
In my personal opinion it's better for us to go on J-31 at this stage and develop it further tailored for our own needs.
To me AZM looks like something we can't do right now.
Practically and realistically speaking, transition from 4/4.5 to 5th generation is not just about upgrading the avionics but an altogether different design concept on the basis of extremely low RCS as well as the Radar Absorbent coatings And their application in the airframe layer by layer.

PAC is not at the position to do such at the moment but the cooperation with Turkish experience in F-35 and CAC’s experience of J-20 and not to forget, some years ago, Rtd ACM was presented with a souvenir model of FC-31, something is definitely going on which time will reveal. Abandoning FC-31 would be the greatest mistake of PAF, even if they just go there for the sake of expertise training, however, acquiring FC-31 in small numbers, experiencing them first hand or even J-20 so that you have first hand experience of flying a true 5th Gen fighter and in turn take steps to further up your AZM program in terms of features and design improvements as well as innovation to functionality just like PAF’s experience of F-16 led to improved aspects in JF-17 which as per PAF weren’t upto PAF’s requirement on F-16s.

@JamD
 
.
Overall package FBW,Sensor suit,Comms and sensor fusion is a lot difficult than Engine.F-35 as X-35 flew in 2000,as F-35A flew in 2006 and first production engine was used in 2009 but F-35 got introduced into service in 2015.


Thanks JamD.
In my personal opinion it's better for us to go on J-31 at this stage and develop it further tailored for our own needs.
To me AZM looks like something we can't do right now.

Here's the thing. Azm is not the name of the aircraft. It's the name of the all-encompassing project to develop the infrastructure and human resource needed to develop (in the future) a 5th gen aircraft, UAVs, other allied equipment and weapons. The 5th gen aircraft comes much later.

Practically and realistically speaking, transition from 4/4.5 to 5th generation is not just about upgrading the avionics but an altogether different design concept on the basis of extremely low RCS as well as the Radar Absorbent coatings And their application in the airframe layer by layer.

PAC is not at the position to do such at the moment but the cooperation with Turkish experience in F-35 and CAC’s experience of J-20 and not to forget, some years ago, Rtd ACM was presented with a souvenir model of FC-31, something is definitely going on which time will reveal. Abandoning FC-31 would be the greatest mistake of PAF, even if they just go there for the sake of expertise training, however, acquiring FC-31 in small numbers, experiencing them first hand or even J-20 so that you have first hand experience of flying a true 5th Gen fighter and in turn take steps to further up your AZM program in terms of features and design improvements as well as innovation to functionality just like PAF’s experience of F-16 led to improved aspects in JF-17 which as per PAF weren’t upto PAF’s requirement on F-16s.

@JamD
Like I said, project Azm is about building the capacity to absorb such technology. We are in no position to absorb even the FC-31 right now, unfortunately.
 
.
Here's the thing. Azm is not the name of the aircraft. It's the name of the all-encompassing project to develop the infrastructure and human resource needed to develop (in the future) a 5th gen aircraft, UAVs, other allied equipment and weapons. The 5th gen aircraft comes much later.
This is the most interesting and challenging part
 
.
For some previous posts:
Yes, sending people abroad for PhDs was a wasteful idea, though US was paying for it.
1. Because project was funded by Pak, Advisers didn't bother for any scientific contribution from PhD candidate but worried about deadline more.
2. Many didn't come back.
3. They jump in world of research just after MSc from Pak, where plagiarism is common. So they don't learn much as PhD is mainly personal thing. Advisers just advise you and the candidate has to do all research.
4. Yes, they still learn and can teach a little better when they come back but can't to research. Mainly bc of no labs, scientific culture and environment. Plus no post-doc or industrial experience.
5. Anyway, any program like this will have leakages i.e. People won't return, less quality candidate will be selected etc.. So don't bother about it. Just send more to compensate.
Lastly, take all things together. but focus more on recruiting 'on-shelf' expert and focus sending our youth abroad. Study demographic, developed countries need people and we can provide or someone else will fill the gap. see UK new visa policy.
 
.
One of the most important aspect of creating an ecosystem of innovation and knowledge are hobbyists and amateurs. People who can tinker for the whole day, just absorbed in their pet project in their garages.

These people are not afraid to break things, challenge the existent way of doing things and experiment. Hobbyists are eager to share their finding with others in their fields.

One of the main reason America so far ahead in innovation is because of its hobbyists. Americans have number of online and offline communities in almost every field you can imagine. Where clash and exchange of ideas are going on. Open source communities, DIY movement, hacker-space and Fablabs have increased the pace of innovation in America.

Look at APPLE, Google, Microsoft and Amazon, they all were started in garages.

Technology like 3d printers, CNC machine, online courses has decreased the learning curve and cost for prototyping and testing new products.

Innovation does not depend on how much knowledge you have but how fast and easily that knowledge dissipates and circulate in the ecosystem.
 
.
Talking about azm , there was the initiative of an operating system - what happened with that ?
 
.
One of the most important aspect of creating an ecosystem of innovation and knowledge are hobbyists and amateurs. People who can tinker for the whole day, just absorbed in their pet project in their garages.

These people are not afraid to break things, challenge the existent way of doing things and experiment. Hobbyists are eager to share their finding with others in their fields.

One of the main reason America so far ahead in innovation is because of its hobbyists. Americans have number of online and offline communities in almost every field you can imagine. Where clash and exchange of ideas are going on. Open source communities, DIY movement, hacker-space and Fablabs have increased the pace of innovation in America.

Look at APPLE, Google, Microsoft and Amazon, they all were started in garages.

Technology like 3d printers, CNC machine, online courses has decreased the learning curve and cost for prototyping and testing new products.

Innovation does not depend on how much knowledge you have but how fast and easily that knowledge dissipates and circulate in the ecosystem.

This is what geekdom is like !!!
These type of people are those who eventually achieve great in life later on in terms of science

Don’t get distracted by the title, check out how they play with Van De Graff Generator to replicate Thor’s Thunders

Talking about azm , there was the initiative of an operating system - what happened with that ?
Separate thread, unnecessary here and there are many who start such initiatives but ultimately they lose hope as well as seriousness and end up with NOTHING.
 
.
Here's the thing. Azm is not the name of the aircraft. It's the name of the all-encompassing project to develop the infrastructure and human resource needed to develop (in the future) a 5th gen aircraft, UAVs, other allied equipment and weapons. The 5th gen aircraft comes much later.
I was rather jumping at result which is production of a home grown next gen platforms.
Like I said, project Azm is about building the capacity to absorb such technology. We are in no position to absorb even the FC-31 right now, unfortunately.
RAM is no go for us along with propulsion but can't we produce a LO airframe and avionics package with help of PRC?
 
.
@Irfan Baloch @JamD @Goenitz and others

I would like to address a couple of things in one post. First of all, parallels have been drawn to our nuclear program. I would like readers to reflect upon the situation. Just recently, Pakistan has again made the news on account of nuclear proliferation and smuggling of nuclear technology. We remain forever dependent on black market purchases to ensure our security. Lastly, when you purchase something on the black market, do you think you can remain an angel? Pakistan today is associated with child pornography on the dark web, drug smuggling, money laundering etc. Could this be consequences of our dealings on the black market? I have no idea, but I invite readers to reflect upon this.

We on this thread our reasonable, rational, and educated people. The consensus we reach here should reflect the consensus of Pakistan as a nation. Are we agreeing to rely on foreign experts, black market dealings, and shortcuts for the long term prosperity, security, and prosperity of our country?

A point was raised about the bottom up approach requiring decades upon decades. The official target date for Azm is 2045. The bottom up approach isn't a mindless investment without short term fruits. As I explained in my approach, it promises long term success while providing short term wins.

I would like you to envision what a prosperous Pakistan would look like. A Pakistan that contributes key technologies to the world which are only found in Pakistan, and as a result the world reciprocates by sharing its own unique technologies. A Pakistan where innovative solutions are indigenously created using wide ranging engineering disciples such as nanotechnology, quantum machines, solid state devices which are created in factories and plants within Pakistan.

The time to work towards this Pakistan is today, not twenty years from now. And the key thing is that it is not impossible. We don't need to overhaul the entire obsolete infrastructure around the country. The bottom up approach takes a small number of highly talented young people and carefully nurtures them away from the corruption, politics, and mediocrity of the rest of the country. Once we obtain a critical mass of talent, they can start to impart their knowledge and skills on the rest of the country.

Keep in mind that I am not proposing a single track strategy of grooming local talent. I am all for importing foreign expertise as needed. But I want to emphasize the high importance of getting our own house in order. Some may object that we don't have the money to do all this. I counter that if we don't do this, we will never have any money. In the modern world, innovation and technical excellence play a major role in your brand. And it is Brand Pakistan that sells.

I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
 
.
Could this be consequences of our dealings on the black market?
high end smugglers do not sell smuggle things, lets say diaper, nor support such group. That is mainly due to economy that people try to sell 'anything'. During German depression post WW1, father became pimp. And there is saying (may not be Hadith), that hunger leads to infidelity "iflas kufar tak la jata ha" .
A Pakistan where innovative solutions are indigenously created using wide ranging engineering disciples such as nanotechnology

The bottom up approach

we don't have the money to do all this
for above 3, as I suggested that for higher education BS and MS, some countries are free. Just prepare your FSc ones and send them. In summary taxpayers of that country will be supporting our children for higher education.
Keep in mind that I am not proposing a single track strategy of grooming local talent
that is the way 'never put our eggs in one basket" Warren Buffet
so its not like I will only observe fast, when I pray regularly 5 times. Point is, you have to take all good things together even if small in size and number.
 
.
high end smugglers do not sell smuggle things, lets say diaper, nor support such group. That is mainly due to economy that people try to sell 'anything'. During German depression post WW1, father became pimp. And there is saying (may not be Hadith), that hunger leads to infidelity "iflas kufar tak la jata ha" .

You certainly seem to know more about high end smugglers than I do. If this is the conclusion you reach, so be it.

for above 3, as I suggested that for higher education BS and MS, some countries are free. Just prepare your FSc ones and send them. In summary taxpayers of that country will be supporting our children for higher education.

My friend, no one can support you because you are not prepared to stand on your own feet and work for your own prosperity. In so many words, behind so many plans, I still see a beggar with begging bowl in hand.
 
.
You certainly seem to know more about high end smugglers than I do.
its just a conjecture. Nuclear stuff is very expensive and the other is not and no excuse for that. I mean smugglers can get away that this steel is for construction and not for centrifuge etc
My friend, no one can support you because you are not prepared to stand on your own feet and work for your own prosperity
I paid 18 euro annually as Tuition fee in Italy (Polito) for my master. It was public university so rest of the expenditures are met by Italian tax payers money. Travelling ticket cost 21 euro for 6 months.
 
Last edited:
. .
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Ok.. too much derailing the thread.
there could be some hidden motives. But Italy had been fascist country. The rights of workers and students are important there. before 2014, they had law that you can never fire your employee..
Anyway, Italy got funded by UN and EU as compensation for that too. Even now when they get no fund but still they induct Asian, African, eastern EU students and teach them free.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom