Project "AZM" :Building Knowledge Base & Road Map

[S A L M A N.]

Gentlemen, while I realize that you all are wayy more experienced and educated than I am currently (BE-EE 3rd year), I would like to add my own viewpoint to this very interesting discussion.
We have EXCELLENT people. US educated, patriotic, dedicated (can't stress this enough). And I'm not just making a grand statement, I have been taught by them. They are so good that people almost always forget to take notes in their lectures. AND, most importantly, they are working to solve Pakistani problems with Pakistani solutions. And, they have the vision to mentor the young generation.

This photograph is from the recent inauguration of the National Science and Technology Park at NUST, Islamabad.
NUST and a private Pakistani company signed an MoU which transferred the intellectual property rights of an indigenously designed 'Transformer Health Monitoring System' to the private industry - for the first time in Pakistan. The professor who led this project is in the picture. And I have the honor of being taught by him. And would you believe that this project was done entirely by 4 batches of undergrad students who were mentored by him.

So, all is not lost. We need the right people, the right environment and the right motivation. With these ingredients present, I'm 100% certain that we undergrads alone would be able to solve most of our common problems in the 4 years of our BE degree programs.

 

[M.AsfandYar]

The only thing these babas know about aircraft design is what all aerospace engineers in Pakistan learn in Aero Vehicle Design course (@Goenitz lol).

HAHA. True that one lol. (So Far)

if there's no one to direct students they can't just discover things on their own. They need to be aimed.

This one is also very true. (Worse there is no one practically in IST apart from a couple or so who does this.)

 

[Sine Nomine]

@JamD man thanks for doing such a huge contribution to this thread.I have a question
Is it possible to build a system if one get's access to it's blue prints,softwares and everything which led it to manufacturing?
I mean to say bypassing all research and test involved.
@messiach Madam your input is needed on this subject.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Unfortunately, we do NOT have these people IN ENOUGH NUMBERS yet. There's two kinds of people right now in PAC:
1. Old-timer PAF people that got their aerospace engineering degrees in the 90s at CAE, maybe spent some years in the US but otherwise spent time on maintenance and overhaul of jets. They are great at their jobs but they are not the kind of people that will give you Azm. Unfortunately, these people tend to think they can (because frankly they don't know any better because of lack of exposure). @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that flying wing childish concept on the other thread was actually PAF engineers who had worked in PAC all their lives. They were making designs on Google Sketchup (I saw with my own eyes). They were convinced they could do what they were planning to do or they were just duping the people at UAS-G (who only import stuff and don't have super technical background). The only thing these babas know about aircraft design is what all aerospace engineers in Pakistan learn in Aero Vehicle Design course (@Goenitz lol). Frankly those courses are out of date by about 4 decades at least.
2. Very young fresh graduates of places like various NUSTs, IST, Air etc. These people might be bright and motivated and a little more in touch with modern stuff but they have been taught by the same babas. And just like the babas all they know about aircraft design is AVD course.

0+0 still equals 0.

So what do we really NEED?

We need mature professionals at PAC. These are Pakistanis all over the world with PhDs and who have worked in international aerospace companies. We have some right now but maybe 10-15 in total lol. These people even in small numbers can have a BIG impact.
1. They will put the R&D at PAC on the right track. I am VERY afraid that the R&D is in the hands of babas I described above right now. I don't doubt their intentions, just their capability.
2. They can teach and mentor new generations of local talents that will be actually USEFUL to PAC instead of just younger versions of the aforementioned babas.

I did my undergrad in Pakistan and I thought I knew a lot but honestly after going through a lot of experience through my PhD I know realize that I literally knew nothing. I would not trust me with from 6 years ago to work on anything serious. This is actually one of my personal drives as well: to impart what I know to young minds in Pakistan. It isn't too hard. What people have said about information availability is true but if there's no one to direct students they can't just discover things on their own. They need to be aimed.

The analogy in bringing in mature professionals or sending students abroad is:
1- Sending students abroad: building entire airforce with SU-30. Expensive and flakey but is one way to do it.
2. Attracting mature professionals: building airforce wih JF-17 and buying a small number of F16, AWACS, DA-20 force multipliers etc. Much more bang for the buck.

On how to attract mature professionals:
No need to drain the foreign reserves dry. They (we) don't want palaces and special treatment. We are Pakistanis and know our auqat (worth).
1. We need job security
2. We need decent pay. I would wager around 3lakh at least for a fresh PhD.
3. Freedom to research and publish. I understand the need for secrecy but research doesn't do well in isolation. Collaboration requires openness. I think Air University Kamra Campus is a step in the right direction for this. Have some part of researchers that can publish freely. This is very UNLIKE SPD organizations. Their research is extremely local and there is bound to be a lot of inefficiency and duplication.
4. Leaders and managers that have vision and knowledge and not babas that are insecure/jealous.


You do all 4 you will literally see PAC do wonders I promise. But this isn't easy and takes time.

this discussion has triggered some very in depth and quality discussion among so many members of this forum and my positive rating ability might be taken away. for me almost all posts deserve positive rating.

Freedom to research and publish. I understand the need for secrecy but research doesn't do well in isolation. Collaboration requires openness. I think Air University Kamra Campus is a step in the right direction for this. Have some part of researchers that can publish freely. This is very UNLIKE SPD organizations. Their research is extremely local and there is bound to be a lot of inefficiency and duplication.

you explained it better. my suggestion to send professionals abroad to friendly countries that have lead on us was with a view to bring them up to speed. my main aim is to start the process of establishing a sustainable inflow of local talent just like technology cities that start from a single company in an unknown place and trigger the spawn of technology centers, universities and other support companies becoming a living billboard to attract local and foreign talent . the history of Tektronix come to mind.
I was in a presentation of this company which was founded after few years of the WW2 by the former US military personnel from Signals Corps and Radars. the engineers, researchers and technicians as well as the employees of the company were encouraged to experiment and take stuff from company stores and even take them home for their own projects and share their results the company spawned an entire silicon valley and established its brand in both military and commercial application.

 

[Goenitz]

This things may or may not help AZM directly.
Lets suppose you are given a task of making a catalyst (containing metal body, composites and precious metals)
1. You need a expert who can validate materials for their rigidity, compatibility and strength. Like whether metal/non-metal are compatible for adhesion, thermal expansion etc. Then all sorts of material strength tests.
2. Then an expert who can design its internal shape best for gas flows. I mean low resistance, low pressure drop etc. Also external shape if space is issue (where it will get installed). Consider weight too
3. Then you conduct test and simulation for the pressure, temperature (catalyst working conditions) and either pass or suggest improvement.
Now get inside
4. The shape of monolith. (square, triangle, honeycomb)
5. Length and size of it.
6. Effect of washcoat. Effect of different fuels/pollutants on it. How to deal with sintering etc.
7. Types of washcoat.
8. Cell structure closed, open, inter mass and heat transfer etc.
9. Metal foam instead of washcoat, position, types,
10. and many more
The point I am emphasising is that for just a simple unit, we need that much and more scholars/experts etc
now imagine building a COMPLETE car. For each of the point, there could be 1000s of research papers.

Now what is expert/scholars for.
They know the theory and advances in that research. They can help with the initial design, by going through theory. (Dr Attiq actually cut, as bullet has ripped through it, the boom part in such a way that it left no stress concentration near hole @JamD and he said he did it after going back to theory). Then they just point out, lets say after you present them results (contours, graph, trends) that whether the physics behind simulation is right or not. Normally they don't know software as much (just 1 or 2).

In west no company set a complete plant for everything. A car manufacturer imports tyres from somewhere else, seats, dashboards, even bonnet or body (BIW), and all that he does is just makes engines and assembly. I worked in a company who just made design and moulds for any new part. They had 40 people just for just design, in one of its office. So imagine people induction per part of car, overall.

Indians are quite far in automotive sector. They are building cheap and standard products. The point is when they need, they can import that workforce to their HAL etc. Then scholar/expert can guide them (as temperature, speed, pressure are different for aircraft so sure), and that workforce is ready for making aircraft and sub system (idk why they messed up).

So I was emphasising that we just need workforce in west to be trained and educated. Run smart city along with. The crumbs from that 'workforce' may return and work in AZM. We cannot compete the schemes, machines, manufacturing technology, etc west have.

Now whose job is that. Its Govt job. To prepare students after FSc for Europeans countries. Lets say Germany. Teach student german, one programming language say Python, then First year courses of the Graduation (all are same in 1st year). Then tech students about culture of the country and norms (1-2 years time). @CriticalThought FSs is the test who is capable or not so no need of separate tests for sending the pupils abroad. For AZM may be your test suggestion is ok.

As the country are fees free or nearly free so Pak govt do not have to spend on public university as much. I repeat, grad education in Pakistan is waste, compared to west. Main reason is we lack Professors and scholar who can teach grad students. However, we have plenty of Masters etc who can teach lower/higher secondary, so that is why we break records of O/A level A grades.

Now, the target countries should be China, Italy, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany. As they are advanced and cheap. Then also target Korea and Japan for their extra ordinary advancement in electronics (their unis are expensive).
This will at least prepare future workforce ready in abroad industries and unis. Can be induced for any project in Pak.
Overall, we will have:
1. Pool of researchers/workforce abroad and some remittance of it in Pak.
2. Then their monetary remittance.
3. Contacts for suppliers, research work, etc
4. Political, social, academic influence.
@StormBreaker @MastanKhan your input Sir

 

[War Historian]

Excellent debate by all the members, who have share their experiences and analysis on PAC and other related matters. I am not an engineer or science specialist but i can add some thing to this matter of research and development. Please sir do not limit this knowledge to a specific university or institute. But my idea is to spread these studies countrywide. We almost have more than 25 govt universities in country. Open the aero engineering department in each and every university and polytechnic college. Give one aircraft to each institute and university which are phase out by PAF or some other countries grounded aircrafts. Give the teacher and students free hand on these scrap jets. And also provide them all information about that jets. Along with the new technologies and upgraded syllabus of some Chinese or EU university with local easy translation which our average students can understand. Give them full access to latest computer software and other accessories to research at their own. Only 50 seats are enough in each university and polytechnic institute. Hire the retired engineers for the education. And ask them to concentrate equally on experiment along with theory.
Then the top students will be hired by PAF and give them more exposure to international Chinese universities. And also only the topper of the different colleges will get admission in this aero engineering.
With this small initiative you can earn much more. Also give the engineering experimental apparatus and equipment to local school and colleges to encourage the youngsters. That will lay the strong foundation for future.All these things can be done in a billion Rs but the result will surprise you bigger than your expectations. And also full fill your requirements and upcoming also for project AZM. Thanks.
When this experiment start giving result, same we can do for automobile, electronics, metallurgy, software and aero engine for civil and military purpose.
(Sorry if i write some thing wrong)

 

[PakistaniJunior]

This may not be as good of a point raised on this thread as those who have written good responses. But i wanted to raise this issue anyways.
I think the best thing Pakistan can do to improve the productivity of its younger generation is through bringing substantial change to the system of Metric and FSC.
The teaching methods are ineffective, the syllabus is out dated. These books we read, were almost the same a decade or two back. Half of the time , the focus isn't even on learning, it's only about passing the exams. This produces candidates who are unfit for their job. Urdu and English shouldn't be taught past 10th grade. Especially Urdu, this subject is literally of no use past 10th grade because all it really demands of us is writing long summaries of Ghazals and stupid topics of Mehab and Mehboob. what's the use of memorizing all these poets and their autobiographies? Focus of FSC should purely be science subjects instead of literature unless it's your chosen subject.
Another sad thing is that, the bar of marks required to get into a good university is set impossibly high. Such that people who score 80% or even 90%+ are facing immense issues in getting into good universities. There are many talented people who can't rattafy everything they read in books, so a large amount of our youth's talent is wasted because of this.
Oh and more good quality Universities should be made aside from a handful few, to accumulate the maximum graduating youth. After this, we need investment in different job sectors that could generate money. All problems of Pakistan can be solved if Pakistan learns how to utilize its youth well.
I don't know if this is related to AZM project, but hopefully this contributes.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

All we know as of yet is all about students in different universities are taking part in different studies. Lastly, saw a group that came up with most secure and advance processing chipset of military grade. I think, currently no one is labeling a specific lot as destined for Aviation City PAC Kamra/AZM.

did it happen inside Pakistan? that is awesome news.
labeling the product is irrelevant. as long as the results can be shared and improved between the different setups it will be a win for all. I hope it doesn't become a KRL vs PAEC war of the 80s between the egoistic doctors of the two establishments.

I do agree that bans may follow knowing our ambition and as odds aren't in our favour in West/US. However, still if the few make it back excluding deserters, this is still a starter. In local area, heard that we are moving ahead however with bit slow speed & pace due to our own issues/economy but the foundation is set to build it up. Local Infrastructure isn't yet on the mark of International Level but however, local studies & labs are set for good start.

The program is set to be strategical importance and of national interest so I don't think the support will ever discontinue regardless of any government.

one of the hurdles in the way will be our own attitude and misguided people who are ill fitted for the top positions they are sitting on. they will bully and discourage new talent, innovations and out of box solutions. if our foreign and local talent is not cared for properly then it will erode and we will be left with empty building and overheads of good for nothing titleholders .

if the channels of communication are open and two way between our talent and the top decision makers then a lot of red tape and bureaucratic bottlenecks can be overcome.
progress is promising Godspeed I say

 

[JamD]

Is it possible to build a system if one get's access to it's blue prints,softwares and everything which led it to manufacturing?
I mean to say bypassing all research and test involved.

For a country like US Russia China Germany yes. Most other countries? No. The reasons are:
1. Even the best documented products dont document everything so there are always holes. It's an old example but watch Curious Droids video on why we cant make the F1 engine today on youtube for reference.
2. You need all the workforce we've been talking about to make sense of the all the documentation.
3. The process of understanding isnt straightforward. There are mistakes and errors and misunderstandings and unavailabilities of many components materials that need to be substituted.
4. You need the industrial base to actually make the things. You might have plans for a chip but if you dont have a fab the plans are useless.

With the JF17 we've attempted to do PART of the above. Not even all of it.

This things may or may not help AZM directly.
Lets suppose you are given a task of making a catalyst (containing metal body, composites and precious metals)
1. You need a expert who can validate materials for their rigidity, compatibility and strength. Like whether metal/non-metal are compatible for adhesion, thermal expansion etc. Then all sorts of material strength tests.
2. Then an expert who can design its internal shape best for gas flows. I mean low resistance, low pressure drop etc. Also external shape if space is issue (where it will get installed). Consider weight too
3. Then you conduct test and simulation for the pressure, temperature (catalyst working conditions) and either pass or suggest improvement.
Now get inside
4. The shape of monolith. (square, triangle, honeycomb)
5. Length and size of it.
6. Effect of washcoat. Effect of different fuels/pollutants on it. How to deal with sintering etc.
7. Types of washcoat.
8. Cell structure closed, open, inter mass and heat transfer etc.
9. Metal foam instead of washcoat, position, types,
10. and many more
The point I am emphasising is that for just a simple unit, we need that much and more scholars/experts etc
now imagine building a COMPLETE car. For each of the point, there could be 1000s of research papers.

Now what is expert/scholars for.
They know the theory and advances in that research. They can help with the initial design, by going through theory. (Dr Attiq actually cut, as bullet has ripped through it, the boom part in such a way that it left no stress concentration near hole @JamD and he said he did it after going back to theory). Then they just point out, lets say after you present them results (contours, graph, trends) that whether the physics behind simulation is right or not. Normally they don't know software as much (just 1 or 2).

In west no company set a complete plant for everything. A car manufacturer imports tyres from somewhere else, seats, dashboards, even bonnet or body (BIW), and all that he does is just makes engines and assembly. I worked in a company who just made design and moulds for any new part. They had 40 people just for just design, in one of its office. So imagine people induction per part of car, overall.

Indians are quite far in automotive sector. They are building cheap and standard products. The point is when they need, they can import that workforce to their HAL etc. Then scholar/expert can guide them (as temperature, speed, pressure are different for aircraft so sure), and that workforce is ready for making aircraft and sub system (idk why they messed up).

So I was emphasising that we just need workforce in west to be trained and educated. Run smart city along with. The crumbs from that 'workforce' may return and work in AZM. We cannot compete the schemes, machines, manufacturing technology, etc west have.

Now whose job is that. Its Govt job. To prepare students after FSc for Europeans countries. Lets say Germany. Teach student german, one programming language say Python, then First year courses of the Graduation (all are same in 1st year). Then tech students about culture of the country and norms (1-2 years time). @CriticalThought FSs is the test who is capable or not so no need of separate tests for sending the pupils abroad. For AZM may be your test suggestion is ok.

As the country are fees free or nearly free so Pak govt do not have to spend on public university as much. I repeat, grad education in Pakistan is waste, compared to west. Main reason is we lack Professors and scholar who can teach grad students. However, we have plenty of Masters etc who can teach lower/higher secondary, so that is why we break records of O/A level A grades.

Now, the target countries should be China, Italy, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Germany. As they are advanced and cheap. Then also target Korea and Japan for their extra ordinary advancement in electronics (their unis are expensive).
This will at least prepare future workforce ready in abroad industries and unis. Can be induced for any project in Pak.
Overall, we will have:
1. Pool of researchers/workforce abroad and some remittance of it in Pak.
2. Then their monetary remittance.
3. Contacts for suppliers, research work, etc
4. Political, social, academic influence.
@StormBreaker @MastanKhan your input Sir

Excellent post! +1 to everything you said.
I think we're converging to THREE levels of plans.
1. Short-term: What I wrote about.
2. Medium-term: What you just wrote about.
3. Long-term: What @PakistaniJunior wrote about.

I am still for a top-down approach. Do 1. Itll make doing 2 slightly easier because people going abroad will have something to come back to. Next do 3 so that people graduating from FSc have somewhere to go to.

The problem with bottom up approach is that:
1. It has been tried many times and has failed.
2. Reason it fails is that it needs to be sustained for decades without any visible fruits to see any success. In Pakistan we lack such long term thinking and stability.

On the other hand
3. Top down gives you fast results.
4. The fast results actually catalyze the medium term goals and the medium term goals catalyze the long term goals.

one of the hurdles in the way will be our own attitude and misguided people who are ill fitted for the top positions they are sitting on. they will bully and discourage new talent, innovations and out of box solutions. if our foreign and local talent is not cared for properly then it will erode and we will be left with empty building and overheads of good for nothing titleholders .

I would say that is the biggest hurdle. Perhaps I shouldn't have put this on the bottom of list but on the top. Most talent leaves because of attitudes of their superiors. Of course every problem needs solutions otherwise all of this is pointless gossip.

The babas will not voluntarily let go their positions of powers. So you can:
1. Wait for them to retire in a couple of decades.
2. Make a VERY conscious policy decision to give rapid promotions to talented engineers that prove themselves. This needs to be policy otherwise babas will use it as a tool for favoritism. The babas should not have the power to do these. There should be an independent board of engineers that decides who deserves this.
3. The armed forces need to STOP thinking of these organizations as a place to park dead end career soldiers to live out the rest of their lives. This happens way to often and needs to stop. Nontechnical people have no place leading these organizations.
4. Pecking order of competence needs to be respected. A PhD with 10 years of experience should not be taking orders from a colonel with a masters degrees in war theory or something. Again this needs to be policy. If you're a PhD with 10 years of experience should shouldn't be hired at assistant manager. You should be hired as a general manager at the very least. Respect technical competence.

These things can never happen in SPD organizations I know but thankfully PAC isnt an SPD organization (yet lol).

 

[Sine Nomine]

For a country like US Russia China Germany yes. Most other countries? No. The reasons are:
1. Even the best documented products dont document everything so there are always holes. It's an old example but watch Curious Droids video on why we cant make the F1 engine today on youtube for reference.
2. You need all the workforce we've been talking about to make sense of the all the documentation.
3. The process of understanding isnt straightforward. There are mistakes and errors and misunderstandings and unavailabilities of many components materials that need to be substituted.
4. You need the industrial base to actually make the things. You might have plans for a chip but if you dont have a fab the plans are useless.

With the JF17 we've attempted to do PART of the above. Not even all of it.

Assume for a second that somehow one gets his hands on complete blue print set and has got facility like PAC in hand,how much are their chances of success?
P.S:-I know that material would be a huge hurdle but let's assume that we have access to materials and competent metallurgist on board for solving this issue and we are able to source out almost everything part of building block.

 

[JamD]

Assume for a second that somehow one gets his hands on complete blue print set and has got facility like PAC in hand,how much are their chances of success?
P.S:-I know that material would be a huge hurdle but let's assume that we have access to materials and competent metallurgist on board for solving this issue and we are able to source out almost everything part of building block.

You would have to be specific about what you are attempting to reverse engineer.

 

[Sine Nomine]

You would have to be specific about what you are attempting to reverse engineer.

A fighter jet most complex system of today.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

A fighter jet most complex system of today.

Engine.

 

[StormBreaker]

Assume for a second that somehow one gets his hands on complete blue print set and has got facility like PAC in hand,how much are their chances of success?
P.S:-I know that material would be a huge hurdle but let's assume that we have access to materials and competent metallurgist on board for solving this issue and we are able to source out almost everything part of building block.

It has more to do with the expertise rather than infrastructure.

Remember, when blueprints are stolen, they aren’t in a form easily understandable by even the experts. It takes months and years to decode, sometimes calculate the missing or non-understandable variables yourselves which are related to the data you already got from the blueprints.

FC-31 development from the F-35 9TB Data leak is the prime example. Your question is actually quite generalized, so there is no single answer to it. If the blueprints are in a ready to use format, only thing remains is the capability of available infrastructure and the raw materials and your reach to outsource some components or parts.

Like @Goenitz beautifully explained how even the smallest thing has to go through various engineers and phases involving many different industrial machineries, it is not possible for PAC to completely come out with such at the given moment. Just the creation of 100s and 1000s of mini moulds would be a very expensive path, which doesn’t guarantee success in the end.

However, if The blueprints are already in a puzzled format, or partially available or missing, the available parts gives you a start, to carry on finding the missing variables to the complete solution.

 

[JamD]

A fighter jet most complex system of today.

No practical chance of success. @StormBreaker post is accurate.