Turks are very much to the point if you try to be realistic.
Turks although i must say for the time being “batein karoron ki dukan pakoron ki”, they have or have had access to advanced western tech with access to scientific researches as well as integration of Turkish Students into Big companies such as LM/Raytheon but they themselves are no more than any other emerging industry like us, although we definitely are below them on average.
We have achieved some milestones for ourselves which is success for us but what we have done is basic to what the big companies have been doing. Our success ladder started from under the well, while Turkey started directly from the surface, trying to attain sky heights similar to USA/France/UK/China/Russia.
What you quoted about JF-17 Project position holders claiming Turkey’s ignorant attitude towards our wish to join TF-X, i would like to put this up this way with a real life example.
“Jaib mein daulat (could be money or high expertise) hai to sab poochenge, warna bhai bhai ko nai pochta”,
So, We didn’t have enough or consistent finances to offer to Turkey for TFX or some high expertise on par with their usual used-to encounters which are from reputed companies like LM/RR. So people who are used to good or excellent normally ignore average or sub standard (referring to our expertise of that time here), hence why Turkey Ignored us for TFX.
BUT, times have taught them now i guess that future is always uncertain, and those same people from High standard organizations are getting distanced from them, they are left with what they learnt from the F-16 Assembly and production as well as their own mature programs of Missiles, Radars and avionics.
We OTOH, have seen only one major AirCraft program and that is JF-17, which in turn has the most Research and Development work from China during early and mid phases which were actually critical phases for PAF to learn Fighter development. Even if we have some very highly skilled and educated engineers, they would be in numbers no more than 40-60 hypothetically, those who can actually prove to be a worth for AZM Early development cycles which are most that matters in fighter jet development. Give the small number of such skilled manpower, Turkey in turn seemed uninterested to attend to our wishes and proposals, and in a way, it is legit, how can we accommodate such small manpower to AZM as well as TF-X.
One thing i really am satisfied to learn is that, alas, Our Military leadership and PAF to be specific have learned the hard way, they have recognized and highlighted their shortfalls in terms of Local Industry base as well as Lack of Standard Education and Research work to pursue great projects, This in turn have led to Aviation City and AZM. Although i do feel that, despite they know what the problems actually are with local industry capability and how to address them, implementation seems a but slow and we can justify it due to financial constraints as well as full focus in Thunder Program in the shape of Bravo, Block 3 as well as Future Blocks and AZM design phase.
Just compare the Aviation Studies in both countries, we will find Turkey quite reasonable to ignore us given the lack of institutes and focus on this industry, We have just one Aeronautical university in whole of Pakistan, Air University which in turn is i think a subsidiary or a partnership with NUST. Rest, we have PIA Training colleges to produce Mazdoors and Basic engineers. Turkey on the other hand, has many Universities offering quality Studies in this sector with assured internships and jobs in Major companies like ASELSAN, Rocketsan and Havelsan, all directly or indirectly related to the field.
Future is bright if things go the way they are planning them to InshaAllah, need dedication and support from Government and Ministry of Tech and Defence.
@aliyusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem @HRK @Signalian @Bilal Khan (Quwa) join in guys, the convo is pretty good here, after a long time, something productive on PDF
I think, it belongs here, since we don’t have much material or news on AZM, so AZM is a concept for us, an industrial long term plan, so our conversation looks better in this thread.
Or if you want, you can move it to a new thread titled “Building the Local Industry from Scratch, A vision of PAF”
YoungPak,
Delightful read. Good attempt. You can do better than this. Back to drawing board and question your line of thinking. Come back with something of Quality again!
As I have said earlier as well..
5thGen is not about the fighter but more about the entire
Ecosystem. This makes it a bigger challenge than just joing TFX AND J3x.
Essentially we are talking about the entire
PakArmedForces Network to be upgraded to 5thGen Level... wherein a stealth/LOF can operate. Should/when we have that upgrade even Thunder Blk3 can provide % performance of 5thGen. And Blk4 even more so... which shall come!
We are not starting from ZERO. Nor we are already in a place to at least design in-house a 5thGen Ecosystem. Of course, finance/RnD and HumanCapital comes into play. We might or might not be that bad...
Fundamental quesiton that we need to ask is: Why does PAF need a 5thGen in the first place? What must be its contours i.e. Ecosystem both in reach and capability/capacity?
Also, it is
imperative to understand that it is not about going with Turkish or Chinese stuff ...
it is about fundamentally embedding ourselves into one particular Ecosystem...
which has enormus implications both for forces and OurStatecraft!
I do understand the feelings of
both hues...
Fanboyismoz and
all-PakArmed-Forces are corrupt/coward/incompetent!
Both, in essence, are painkillers, escapismoz....
Indeed, in a sea of sewer how can there be fragrance of roses...
so yes, corruption is endemic... this should say everything that needs to be said.
It is my firm belief that
Pakistan in all aspects must follow
Directed Evolution Model... which of course, applies to
5thGen Ecosystem as well.
Invention of wheel is neither necessary nor desirable for Pakistan. We need to focus both on
Horizontal and
Vertical Transformation strategies.
In other words, build from ground up
HumanCapital and
TechnoCapital and at the sametime leverage what is already out there.. creating a
Synthesis which creates a
Industerialismo...both in
Thinking and Doing.
The very reason I joined PDF was JF.. was a
absurdly proud moment to hear/read about PAC making its own jet. Back then we had to suffer so much abuse from the esteemed Indian posters... and now we do have an evolving Ecosystem. Not Zero anymore.
Block3 might not be 100% of our doing but it is also not totally foreign either. We did help our Chinese friends..and those in
PRC who matter value it... ignoring the hypernationalist posters is a must.
Most of us don't know jack..including yours truly!
This, once again, brings us to the question of having a 5thGen Ecosystem.. Why do we need it? Against whom do we need it? What is our geopolitics in a decade? Think Gawadar..think CPEC...think SEZs and most importantly..think
OurBiggestProvince... our EEZ in PakSea... think
AfroPakOceanRegion!
So what is the 5thGen Ecosystem we need?
There is so much we need to do to be proficient in all
Nine Aspects of War so that we can have
Peace..and 5thGen Ecoysystem is needed.
At the moment it appears that we shall go with both TFX and J3x...leveraging components from both allies/friends to create a
Hybrid,
Pak Specific Stealth Fighter.. however, to create a functioning 5thGen Ecosystem we need to do much more...
There is somework being done in
Artifical Intelligence...
mostly nascent... this needs to be given full priority across the board for all 6 PakArmedForces... luckily even our political class is talking about it... so there is a tinny start there.
PAC needs to work much more on MALE/HALE UAVs/UACVs...
for this we are not that handicapped. Hence, there must be a sense of urgency to at least
dare to experiment on different concepts without breaking the bank!
You know very well I am not a techman in defence field... however, I do understand money and policy to an extent... the
productivity per FTE in our
DefenceProduction needs to go up than it is now.
Frankly, this is where we need to employ much more in ICT/Integerated Production Systems/Robotics and best-practices in management.
I don't say that our people are not doing
hardwork... I am implying that we need to do
smartwork too.
It is the quesiton of FTE utility. Think about per FTE cost in the entire life cycle... and then There is
Pension Bomb which none is daring to talk about.
Yes, this is related to our 5thGen Ecosystem..too...since it is not just fighter... sorry, to be boring...but Statecraft is also about counting pennies sometimes!
Now have a look at the Thunder production.. our FTE cost is lower than the Chinese.. which adds up to price/cost of Thunder... if/when we can bring the entire production in PAC this cost shall go down... in other words there is something holding back the transfer of production to PAC... I don't know why that is. Part of the Deal?
@airomerix @messiach
Now when you look at this JF production...story... are we going to produce all of 5thGen Fighter at home?
Most likely not... once again this brings us back to embedding of our entire 5thGen Ecosystem to one/two allies/friends... thus making
OurStatecraft also beholden to them..both in good or bad way...
Leverage goes both ways!
So for now... let us neither be
lut gae mur gae ..corrupt/traitors/imcompetent routine
NOR over-the-top Fanboyishismoz..
My sense is Pakistan shall go for both the Turkish and the Chinese solutions and shall try to see what else is possible from other reliable sources..and create a
Hybrid 5thGen Ecosystem... in which both TFX and J3x will play a role.
We shall not invent the wheel... we shall make it Green!
I do agree with
@Irfan Baloch to have a dedicated space for some productive, value-added discussion... would be educational for YoungPaks...perhaps for OldPaks too...
@The Eagle Brother mine, I second your suggestion of integerating Irfan Sahib's and others posts to the thread you mentioned... would require patrolling to keep that one troll /nonsesne free...might be some thread bans!
@StormBreaker now think about all NINE Aspects of War.. Think about
5thGen Ecosystem...come up with a detached analysis of what Pakistan needs to do... to have a fully functional ecosystem with a decade plus!!!???
Mangus