Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[Jliu]

PN sources say that the scorpene deal signed by the IN prohibits sale of scorpene to the PN!

Ouch.

Jliu
well, what do you think? do you think the deal will eventually go through? I still hope that Pakistan gets the Marlin, though.

You can easily talk with the french to secretly integrate deadly weapons like cruise missiles or transfer critical technology, but with the germans, I'm sure you'd get a "threat of arms race in the sub-continent (although this only applies to Pakistan and never India)" or "cruise missiles falling into the hands of terrorists".

The French have never missed an opportunity to make a quick buck but even then they won't spin out on a tangent and transfer cruise missile related components or top of the line technology for obvious political reasons.

Even if pakistan doesn't get the U214, I still think it'll be better to get the Marlin or even the Song class submarines. I remember hearing from a senior who used to work for lockheed, that the french were secretly transfering technology to china. I trust his info, he even said he had a chinese friend involved in the project who could confirm that.

The entire sensor, propulsion fit and acoustic dampeners found on the
Agosta90B via Pakistan (ever wondered why the PN made a unique order for a nine bladed propeller?) until the Indians and Japanese started applying no small amount of pressure-not that the French would have transferred anything beyond that point. You simply don't give your best gear away for any price even if you are out to make a quick buck like the French. As for the same nine bladed Song, I don't exactly see why the PN would procure a boat whose performance is similar to that of the 90B which played a large part in its development. The PLAN utilises an evolutionary approach to SSK design so the current Yuan class can best be represented as a marriage of a 636 Kilo and the Agosta90B-somewhat inferior to the 90Bs in both the critical areas of noise management and with an appalling sensor fit which is puzzling given the available commercial gear.

Besides, we can still cooperate with Turkey even if we do get a different sub. the turks are going for a more "indigenous" drive in naval technology, although I think they may be overdoing and underestimating it a bit. AFAIK, the turks plan to use only the hull design for the U214 with germans working in turkey, which means that we could possibly get a lot of help on our own designs for the future. a three-way technology outlet, turkey-china-france.

Domestic Assembly is a step up from Kit Assembly although I don't see the joy that seems to stem from the Turks selecting the U214. The Turks are full of bluster (some say crap) when they talk about exporting or cooperation with third parties on a U214 derivative simply because it is not the buyer who decides which of the 14,000 subcomponents and 28 critical systems of a conventional AIP submarine may be exported to a third party-it is the vendor and the vendor as you all know is HDW and the German government. Frankly with DCNS it would have been so much easier as the French would easily have found a way for either the Scorpene or Marlin design to "migrate" to Pakistan if Turkey did the selling.

 

[Jliu]

not to say that the PN doesn't either, I think the navy is in over their heads this time on the U214. keep in mind the germans are offering a very "arrogant" deal, with no compromise, no extra goodies, nothing. which is why I'm pissed off as well, this shows way too much "sucking up" to the germans on behalf of the PN. Look at how the indians try to get the most out of their deals, and look at us how much we suck up for F-16's.

It all comes down to the lack of leverage Pakistan currently possesses. With more influence be it money, political or military power etc your leverage increases in regards to critical issues. In this case HDW realises that a) the German Gov (not to mention the Israelis and Indians) are opposed to such a sale and will likely veto it, b) French influence over Pakistani procurement politics and leaders c) India's rise and the lure of greater rewards with an IN tender for six SSKs so they feel they have nothing to lose by offering an "arrogant deal" if only for the sake of maintaining the facade of "competition".

the situation doesn't look good for us seeing how we are an islamic nation. israel lobbying against the sale is proof of that.

I disagree-look at the Gulf States/GCC and all the goodies they're getting. I see it in relation to Pakistan's nuclear program and the lack of transparency related to it. You see, uncertainty breeds conflict as opponents seek to 'hedge' against potential threats-which they overhype for domestic consumption. That is why cooperation and joint excercises are so effective in building trust and allowing each side to accurately gauge the other to reduce uncertainty.

As for Israel it didn't help at all that during Yom Kippur in 73' when they were on the brink that Pakistan sent elements of the PAF to assist the Arabs-completely counterproductive due to the damaging fallout and subsequent military and diplomatic assistance given to India as 'payback'. I will go into details on the Air Force/Army thread when I have time for that subject. Not pretty reading when you're a PAF pilot.

the french have already given us full transfer of technology, which according to Jliu, they aren't giving completely to india.

DCNS/France has given the PN full ToT for the Agosta90B for domestic manufacture and assembly (for the benefit of readers-meaning you can build the SSK by yourself-100&#37. The P75 Scorpene deal negotiated with India covers domestic assembly only with 75% offset (in English meaning your doemstic suppliers get to supply 75% of the raw materials, wiring, electronics etc and you get to assemble the SSK under license from France). Now the Indians have hit a roadblock because they want to fit an so far unknown Israeli EW/ELINT suite in place of a French one-because it simply is better and the French have an issue with that, hence the delays.

i can bet you big money, they will help us integrate a VLS for babur onto our subs.

Can the Babur fit into a 8 cell SYLVER VLS on a Marlin whose MESMA AIP unit already takes up c.30m of the hull? I think not. An acoustically superior solution would be configuring the torp tubes to accomodate the Babur.

cooperation with turkey on naval technology will always be there. we are definitely getting MILGEM. and believe me, we do have a nuclear submarine program in the works.

MILGEM yes, but SSN? I'm on the record as saying nay.

the turkish, chinese, and french, if we go with the marlin, can always help out. the reactor we are developing ourselves, this much I know. we can easily get help in systems and hull designs from our allies. buy from the french and it will be similar to the russians helping the indians on their n-sub.

The Turks may try their best with indigenous systems and expertise but the Germans won't allow the hull, systems or sensors of the U214 to be transferred to Pakistan. The Chinese are more than willing so you might have the rather "unsatisfactory" scenario of a Chinese hull coupled with what the Turks can spare after US, German, Israeli and Indian pressure. The nature of submarines as a political and naval 'big ticket item' means that geopolitics are very much at the forefront of any deal and India has a lot more to offer Turkey than Pakistan in terms of energy security and trade ties not to mention doing anything to prevent the PN from expanding its undersea arm (including creating a logistical nightmare for itself through its policy of diversification). The French are an enigma in terms of the Indo-Pak naval balance. As I've mentioned above and in previous posts, due to the nature of submarines as the most potent naval "WMD" in my own and my navy's view-any procurement must be approved by the relevant cabinet body with the executive before the vendor is allowed to proceed. Most observers also do not realise the fiscal scope of a SSK deal once all maintenance and support options are exercised over the lifetime of the platform. For example the recent Turkish order for 6 U214s has been put at c.EU 3bn-in the course of the boats' average 25-30 yr lifespan that particular order is worth as much as EU 30bn-10 times the quoted base calculation after inflation & upkeep have been accounted for.

Historically DCNS and the French gov have had a great relationship with the PN but in recent years the French have been content to arm both India and Pakistan especially the former due to the increasing scope of $$$ and dependence of the Indians on vendors in undersea warfare related issues such as maintenance. In an ideal scenario the French would continue arming both nations but if forced to choose then given the propensity of the French to establish long term relationships-unfortunately Pakistan would definitely be "thrown under the bus" as India has an unmatchable record in procuring and then relying on the vendor in undersea warfare without the leakage of technology to third parties. Appalling from a self sufficient POV but since the Indians are literally rolling in cash then it suits them fine.

I am not sure whether you're familiar with the IN's recently released/leaked undersea procurement plans for the next 10-15 years for a grand total of 24 SSKs but it involves the procurement of six SSKs in 2008-09 to bring numbers up to 22 (noting the six Scorpenes in 2005 were to replace the Type 209s and Foxtrots), another six in the 2012-2020 timeframe to replace the unrefitted 877 Kilos (leaving six refitted 877s) and beyond that the final six. Given the IN's policy of diversification nobody should be surprised after reading this why governments and vendors are falling over themselves to bid as it is my belief the IN will procure all three tier three designs and lease 2-3 Akula SSN to keep all parties happy (except those that happen to be logisticians).

 

[Nutuk]

The Turks may try their best with indigenous systems and expertise but the Germans won't allow the hull, systems or sensors of the U214 to be transferred to Pakistan. The Chinese are more than willing so you might have the rather "unsatisfactory" scenario of a Chinese hull coupled with what the Turks can spare after US, German, Israeli and Indian pressure. The nature of submarines as a political and naval 'big ticket item' means that geopolitics are very much at the forefront of any deal and India has a lot more to offer Turkey than Pakistan in terms of energy security and trade ties not to mention doing anything to prevent the PN from expanding its undersea arm (including creating a logistical nightmare for itself through its policy of diversification). The French are an enigma in terms of the Indo-Pak naval balance. As I've mentioned above and in previous posts, due to the nature of submarines as the most potent naval "WMD" in my own and my navy's view-any procurement must be approved by the relevant cabinet body with the executive before the vendor is allowed to proceed. Most observers also do not realise the fiscal scope of a SSK deal once all maintenance and support options are exercised over the lifetime of the platform. For example the recent Turkish order for 6 U214s has been put at c.EU 3bn-in the course of the boats' average 25-30 yr lifespan that particular order is worth as much as EU 30bn-10 times the quoted base calculation after inflation & upkeep have been accounted for.

I see Pakistan is also very devided on the selection of her new generation submarine. I am not going to tell Pakistan should cooperate with Turkey, since Pakistan is an independent sovereign country that can take care of her own decissions. Whatever the Pakistani choice would be, we Turks would respect it and Pakistan would stay our brother nation.

I rather want to fill in the drive for Turkey to go partly indigenous on the submarine: Turkey has reached a technological level that allows her to produce her own ships, which we gladly do with MRTP33 boats, Milgem corvette and the TF2000 frigate on the design board.

On the building of submarines however there are still some matters what would cost extremely high when we would go for a full indigenous design. That's why we chose a partner (in this case HDW with U214) that has an existing design which we want to combine with our indigenous systems.

Why is Turkey trying to develop and integrate her own systems into a submarine and not just purchasing it of the shelf? Purchasing of the shelf would be a lot easier, have less risks but on the other hand have also severe limitations! Limitations like integration of own weaponry, of your own battlemanagement system or some strategic important toys that can render your submarine much more valuable and reliable in case of war. Like integrating your own submarine in your own C4I network. Our ships (Milgem, TF2000, FAC's and submarine) will have common systems to enable a netcentric warfare (a must in the future), and this is not what you can buy simply of the shelf. Reliance on your own defence industry is a key to success which cannot be acquired by solely purchases of hot military weapons. A simple example are the Arab countries who are on a total loss against Israel. The one is solely purchasing weaponry but the other is relying on her own defence industry.

IMO it would be a loss for both Pakistan and Turkey if no cooperation is made to bring eachothers defence industry to a higher position, but as said before it is up to Pakistan and we respect whatever decision Pakistan would take.

Regards

 

[Jliu]

I see Pakistan is also very devided on the selection of her new generation submarine.

The PN brass realises the unfortunate predicament they face in regards to conventional suppliers and from personal experience my analysis is that they are waiting for two dependent variables/scenarios which may be that a) the French cabinet gives approval for the release of the Scorpene (unlikely according to an above source but given the propsensity of the French to renege on 'agreements' a la Taiwan 1992, still possible) or Marlin SSK, b) a deal is reached with the German cabinet to authorise the release of the U214-s. These are dependent on three independent (fixed) variables, being that 1) the design must have a comparative baseline advantage over any similar design operated by the IN (ie. meaning the design must be a Scorpene++ variant, Marlin or the U214), 2) the level of pressure applied by adversaries/willingness of vendors to supply and 3) the realisation that India will have first choice in the selection of a T3 design by virtue of spending and political might. Although my current duties do not allow me to consult for the PN as in the past I do prefer the U214 option-if it is available as systems wise as you probably do know, the U214 design is far superior in this respect as naval and warfare as a whole is increasingly dominated by systems (NCW) based technologies & strategies.

I am not going to tell Pakistan should cooperate with Turkey, since Pakistan is an independent sovereign country that can take care of her own decissions. Whatever the Pakistani choice would be, we Turks would respect it and Pakistan would stay our brother nation.

I am intrigued. Is there a strong cultural affinity between the two nations or some sort of ongoing cultural exchanges for the 'brother nation' phrase?

I rather want to fill in the drive for Turkey to go partly indigenous on the submarine: Turkey has reached a technological level that allows her to produce her own ships, which we gladly do with MRTP33 boats, Milgem corvette and the TF2000 frigate on the design board. On the building of submarines however there are still some matters what would cost extremely high when we would go for a full indigenous design. That's why we chose a partner (in this case HDW with U214) that has an existing design which we want to combine with our indigenous systems.

Partly indigenous on any one of these programs is debatable as locally sourced components for the platforms are nonexistent-local industry only produces subcomponents to an established blueprint already set out under what is known as offsets-ie. local companies make an existing design using doemstic components and parts which is as indigenous as it is going to get in the case of the U214s. Fortunately in my discussions a few years ago with some of your officers Turkey realises this build under license agreement is the most preferable and feasible option-unlike the South Koreans who are attempting to design a brand new design with some foreign assistance although they might find funding hard to justify after a few years.

Why is Turkey trying to develop and integrate her own systems into a submarine and not just purchasing it of the shelf? Purchasing of the shelf would be a lot easier, have less risks but on the other hand have also severe limitations! Limitations like integration of own weaponry, of your own battlemanagement system or some strategic important toys that can render your submarine much more valuable and reliable in case of war. Like integrating your own submarine in your own C4I network. Our ships (Milgem, TF2000, FAC's and submarine) will have common systems to enable a netcentric warfare (a must in the future), and this is not what you can buy simply of the shelf. Reliance on your own defence industry is a key to success which cannot be acquired by solely purchases of hot military weapons. A simple example are the Arab countries who are on a total loss against Israel. The one is solely purchasing weaponry but the other is relying on her own defence industry.

Turkey has an admirable defence industry and I am interested to know the name and scope of the Turkish Armed Forces NCW concept in English if available.

Regards

 

[Nutuk]

Re Jliu,

To be honest I am not familiar with the Pakistani relations with France or Germany and why there should be an authorization obstacle regarding submarine purchases. A purchase should IMO not be dependent on the willingness of vendors to supply, but be dependent on the buyer whether she wants to buy or not. The buyer is paying for it and is the one setting the requirements, and the vendor can only give the price of course with room to negotiations on terms. That's why I fail to see why Germany would have problems with selling the U214 to Pakistan, especially while she is hard fighting against the French rival in promoting and selling her own submarines.

That said the choice should be a matter of what suits the Pakistan defense the most, if the answer is Scorpene than Pakistan should definitely go for that. I do realize that Pakistan has a different threat environment (India) than Turkey and by those maybe different needs. On the other hand I also believe that development of indigenous industry would serve Pakistan the best on the long run. Turkey has clearly set her bets on the indigenous industry so the choice of U214 derivative with as much possible indigenous subsystems is our way to go.

I am intrigued. Is there a strong cultural affinity between the two nations or some sort of ongoing cultural exchanges for the 'brother nation' phrase?

Let say not a cultural affinity but more a historic gratitude. During world war I the Ottoman empire was completely destroyed and our lands where occupied by our enemies (English, French, Italians, Greeks). The Indian Muslims (now Pakistani’s) sent us money and support in our struggle of independence war that followed. Such an unconditional brotherly help we can not leave unanswered, Pakistan has a special place in our relations. Whenever there is a disaster (like the last earthquake) Turks will be there to help you. In case of war (God forbid) we’ll send you our support, unconditional! Like the Pakistani people did. So yes there is an affinity in Turkey for Pakistan.

Partly indigenous on any one of these programs is debatable as locally sourced components for the platforms are nonexistent-local industry only produces subcomponents to an established blueprint already set out under what is known as offsets-ie. local companies make an existing design using doemstic components and parts which is as indigenous as it is going to get in the case of the U214s.

In the past this was indeed the case, in case of the U209 submarines we did indeed produce mostly license products of the supplier (under the name of offsets) since we had not the technology to design our own products. But today the situation is very different, we can now design our own boats with most of her subsystems indigenously. About 20 indigenous subsystems are planned on the U214, some of them are:
- Sonar’s
- Fire control system
- Torpedo integration
- ED systems (electronic support systems)
- Navigation support systems
- Periscope
- Radio/ communication systems
- under water telephone
- degaussing system (de-magnetizing of the hull)
- Torpedo decoys
- Fuel cell

Turkey has an admirable defence industry and I am interested to know the name and scope of the Turkish Armed Forces NCW concept in English if available.

Thank you, but Turkey is not there where she wants to be with her defense industry yet. Our SSM (Savunma Sanayi Mustesarligi = under secretariat of the defense Ministry) has set a target to get (self reliance) Turkey producing more than 50% of her own military materials by 2011. Traditionally Turkey produced only 25% (comparable with Pakistan) of her defense products. At the moment we have a percentage of 41% and SSM is pushing very hard to get this percentage >50%.
Just take a look at the chart for an indication how the number of projects undertaken by the SSM has shown a dramatic increase in the last couple of years in her punch for indigenous industry. At the moment the SSM is running 240 projects parallel from battleships to radars:

Self reliance on defence by country in 2003: (source: SSM)
Germany 80%
France 90%
South Korea 75%
England 85%
Israel 79%
Turkey 25% (note 41% in 2008)
Greece 25%

I have already made a long story, to end it I want to recap my personal opinion. As you can see self reliance in defence is a determining factor whether countries have a relative strong or weak army. USA with a high self reliance has a very strong army while Arab nations (although buying the finest arms of the shelf) have relative weak armies. The same goes for Germany, France and of course Turkey and Pakistan. It’s a plain given that without an indigenous industry our countries cannot become powerful. That’s one of the reasons I like to see Turkey and Pakistan cooperating to enhance each others knowhow and share technology. Developed countries won’t share them. It is up to us (developing countries) to help each other out. We can both try to get out of the ditch separately, but in cooperation this would be much easier.

Regards,

 

[Jliu]

Re Jliu,
To be honest I am not familiar with the Pakistani relations with France or Germany and why there should be an authorization obstacle regarding submarine purchases. A purchase should IMO not be dependent on the willingness of vendors to supply, but be dependent on the buyer whether she wants to buy or not. The buyer is paying for it and is the one setting the requirements, and the vendor can only give the price of course with room to negotiations on terms.

In an ideal world yes but regarding any submarine sale geopolitics plays a huge role in determining who gets what. DCNS and HDW are willing to sell but are their governments? In the case of upper end T3 SSKs the issue is one of strategic balance as submarines are strategic sea denial/psychological weapons.

That's why I fail to see why Germany would have problems with selling the U214 to Pakistan, especially while she is hard fighting against the French rival in promoting and selling her own submarines.

The problem mainly lies in Israeli and Indian pressure as well as from virtually all PACRIM countries which is what makes this issue so complicated. The pressure stems from two factors, the first being the poor relations Pakistan enjoys with the above allied countries. During Yom Kippur the Pakistanis sent an airforce contigent to assist the Arabs and the Israelis have not forgotten this rather rash action and with the Indians have applied some political/financial pressure to both Germany and France to stop supply in the form of protests and the Indian Navy floating its own tenders for T3 SSKs on the condition that vendors not deal with the Pakistanis to summarise.

Unfortunately the second factor has all non PRC aligned countries in the Asia Pacific region opposing any sale of advanced SSKs to Pakistan because of the inevitable leakage of submarine technology to China given the close ties between the two nations. If you have been keeping up with PLAN naval construction of SSKs they will have the world's largest fleet of SSKs by 2020 for the sole purpose of area denial around the AP sea lanes and out into the Pacific Ocean which to put it simply is threatening. It is an open secret that the PLAN Song Class (later variants) and Yuan class incorporate all French technologies found on the Agosta90B including the nine bladed propeller and virtually the same acoustic signature from the units that have been trailed by boats from various AP nations signifying the incoporation of quieting techniques including shock dampeners using the Lebreuf method which potentially makes the 90Bs quieter than the retrofitted IN Kilos at some speeds. The Chinese also have the potential to compete with French and German design houses should such technologies in PN boats find their way onto Chinese SSKs (which are mass produced)-effectively undercutting Western and Russian boats in price terms.

That said the choice should be a matter of what suits the Pakistan defense the most, if the answer is Scorpene than Pakistan should definitely go for that. I do realize that Pakistan has a different threat environment (India) than Turkey and by those maybe different needs. On the other hand I also believe that development of indigenous industry would serve Pakistan the best on the long run. Turkey has clearly set her bets on the indigenous industry so the choice of U214 derivative with as much possible indigenous subsystems is our way to go.

I agree completely. Unfortunately at this stage it is very unclear what actions or plans regarding the design of SSK the PN is going to procure. We will wait and see.

Let say not a cultural affinity but more a historic gratitude. During world war I the Ottoman empire was completely destroyed and our lands where occupied by our enemies (English, French, Italians, Greeks). The Indian Muslims (now Pakistani’s) sent us money and support in our struggle of independence war that followed. Such an unconditional brotherly help we can not leave unanswered, Pakistan has a special place in our relations. Whenever there is a disaster (like the last earthquake) Turks will be there to help you. In case of war (God forbid) we’ll send you our support, unconditional! Like the Pakistani people did. So yes there is an affinity in Turkey for Pakistan.

Very interesting from a personal POV and I am sure many Turkish share your views but I differ on whether the official response will be unconditional given Turkish relations with India and Israel-no small thing. To clarify, I am not Pakistani but a serving RAN officer specialising in TRADOC in undersea warfare focusing on the Asia Pacific region.

In the past this was indeed the case, in case of the U209 submarines we did indeed produce mostly license products of the supplier (under the name of offsets) since we had not the technology to design our own products. But today the situation is very different, we can now design our own boats with most of her subsystems indigenously. About 20 indigenous subsystems are planned on the U214, some of them are:
- Sonar’s
- Fire control system
- Torpedo integration
- ED systems (electronic support systems)
- Navigation support systems
- Periscope
- Radio/ communication systems
- under water telephone
- degaussing system (de-magnetizing of the hull)
- Torpedo decoys
- Fuel cell

From my experience the Turkish defence industry produces components to a high standard but in regards to the Hellenic Navy (HN) procurement of four
U214 (build under license) with 40% offset (40% local components-quite low), is the Turkish High Command concerned that the Greek boats may be potentially technologically superior to Turkish boats given the role of this project may be to give industry experience? (Note: Does not factor in Training and Doctrine (TRADOC) meaning this is not a comparison).

Thank you, but Turkey is not there where she wants to be with her defense industry yet. Our SSM (Savunma Sanayi Mustesarligi = under secretariat of the defense Ministry) has set a target to get (self reliance) Turkey producing more than 50% of her own military materials by 2011. Traditionally Turkey produced only 25% (comparable with Pakistan) of her defense products. At the moment we have a percentage of 41% and SSM is pushing very hard to get this percentage >50%.
Just take a look at the chart for an indication how the number of projects undertaken by the SSM has shown a dramatic increase in the last couple of years in her punch for indigenous industry. At the moment the SSM is running 240 projects parallel from battleships to radars:

Self reliance on defence by country in 2003: (source: SSM)
Germany 80%
France 90%
South Korea 75%
England 85%
Israel 79%
Turkey 25% (note 41% in 2008)
Greece 25%

I have already made a long story, to end it I want to recap my personal opinion. As you can see self reliance in defence is a determining factor whether countries have a relative strong or weak army. USA with a high self reliance has a very strong army while Arab nations (although buying the finest arms of the shelf) have relative weak armies. The same goes for Germany, France and of course Turkey and Pakistan. It’s a plain given that without an indigenous industry our countries cannot become powerful. That’s one of the reasons I like to see Turkey and Pakistan cooperating to enhance each others knowhow and share technology. Developed countries won’t share them. It is up to us (developing countries) to help each other out. We can both try to get out of the ditch separately, but in cooperation this would be much easier.

Regards,

Thank you for your valuable input and I will take some time to read it all. I look forward to further discussion with you.

My Regards

 

[Nutuk]

To clarify, I am not Pakistani but a serving RAN officer specialising in TRADOC in undersea warfare focusing on the Asia Pacific region.

Interesting, nice to meet you than.

From my experience the Turkish defence industry produces components to a high standard but in regards to the Hellenic Navy (HN) procurement of four
U214 (build under license) with 40% offset (40% local components-quite low), is the Turkish High Command concerned that the Greek boats may be potentially technologically superior to Turkish boats given the role of this project may be to give industry experience? (Note: Does not factor in Training and Doctrine (TRADOC) meaning this is not a comparison).

The HN procurement has undeniable effect on the procurement scheme in terms of priorities of projects, but does not influence the global line of the SSM . There is a huge difference when we talk about local components or indigenous subsystems. Turkey will produce all 6 submarines in country with a much higher share of local components but that is not the important factor. Important is the implementation of the battle management system and critical subsystems which makes the U214 tailor made for our purpose. The SSM idea is to get the U214 “semi-indigenous”, to give Turkey a free hand to implement whatever hardware at any given time. For instance also implementing our own sonar, own fire control systems, torpedo’s (in development), sono buoys, decoys etc.

Secondly HN submarines can hardly become technologically superior since they buy off the shelf. Biggest difference between the Turkish U209/1400 and Greek U214 is the AIP system for the rest they are pretty much the same using the same sensors and ISUS90 of Atlas elektronik. It is Turkey who is going to make the difference with her own systems on the next generation U214.

Regards,

 

[Neo]

I see Pakistan is also very devided on the selection of her new generation submarine. I am not going to tell Pakistan should cooperate with Turkey, since Pakistan is an independent sovereign country that can take care of her own decissions. Whatever the Pakistani choice would be, we Turks would respect it and Pakistan would stay our brother nation.

I rather want to fill in the drive for Turkey to go partly indigenous on the submarine: Turkey has reached a technological level that allows her to produce her own ships, which we gladly do with MRTP33 boats, Milgem corvette and the TF2000 frigate on the design board.

On the building of submarines however there are still some matters what would cost extremely high when we would go for a full indigenous design. That's why we chose a partner (in this case HDW with U214) that has an existing design which we want to combine with our indigenous systems.

Why is Turkey trying to develop and integrate her own systems into a submarine and not just purchasing it of the shelf? Purchasing of the shelf would be a lot easier, have less risks but on the other hand have also severe limitations! Limitations like integration of own weaponry, of your own battlemanagement system or some strategic important toys that can render your submarine much more valuable and reliable in case of war. Like integrating your own submarine in your own C4I network. Our ships (Milgem, TF2000, FAC's and submarine) will have common systems to enable a netcentric warfare (a must in the future), and this is not what you can buy simply of the shelf. Reliance on your own defence industry is a key to success which cannot be acquired by solely purchases of hot military weapons. A simple example are the Arab countries who are on a total loss against Israel. The one is solely purchasing weaponry but the other is relying on her own defence industry.

IMO it would be a loss for both Pakistan and Turkey if no cooperation is made to bring eachothers defence industry to a higher position, but as said before it is up to Pakistan and we respect whatever decision Pakistan would take.

Regards

Merhaba Nutuk, welcome aboard!
Please introduce yourself in the members intro section: Members Introduction - Pakistan Defence Forum

Thanks!

 

[Jliu]

The HN procurement has undeniable effect on the procurement scheme in terms of priorities of projects, but does not influence the global line of the SSM . There is a huge difference when we talk about local components or indigenous subsystems.

Thank you for clarifying the misunderstanding. The Turkish U214 will contain certain indigenous subsystems-how much will depend on the negotiations currently being undertaken.

Turkey will produce all 6 submarines in country with a much higher share of local components but that is not the important factor. Important is the implementation of the battle management system and critical subsystems which makes the U214 tailor made for our purpose. The SSM idea is to get the U214 “semi-indigenous”, to give Turkey a free hand to implement whatever hardware at any given time. For instance also implementing our own sonar, own fire control systems, torpedo’s (in development), sono buoys, decoys etc.

The ideal scenario as full scale development of a submarine is impractical. A good approach that minimises risk factors.

Secondly HN submarines can hardly become technologically superior since they buy off the shelf. Biggest difference between the Turkish U209/1400 and Greek U214 is the AIP system for the rest they are pretty much the same using the same sensors and ISUS90 of Atlas elektronik. It is Turkey who is going to make the difference with her own systems on the next generation U214.

Regards,

In the "strategic balance" not surprising although I'll try to find out the exact sensor fit of the 209s and the HN 214s.

However on the last statement I respectfully disagree until the exact performance of the indigenous Turkish CMS, sensors and torpedoes are known. Another question is that if the Turks are planning an baseline upgrade of the ISUS90 or sensor fit will the Germans part with the source code needed to achieve this?

 

[Nutuk]

However on the last statement I respectfully disagree until the exact performance of the indigenous Turkish CMS, sensors and torpedoes are known. Another question is that if the Turks are planning an baseline upgrade of the ISUS90 or sensor fit will the Germans part with the source code needed to achieve this?

No, the plan is not to use ISUS90 at all. Turkey has developed her own battle management system called "GENESIS" for her navy. The Turkish Perry class frigates got an upgrade with the installation of the GENESIS system. The newly developed Milgem corvettes are going to receive the improved GENESIS-II and for the U214 submarine there is planned a submarine version of the GENESIS. No more source code troubles + many critical subsystems that are indigenously produced for optimal use.

 

[Jliu]

No, the plan is not to use ISUS90 at all. Turkey has developed her own battle management system called "GENESIS" for her navy. The Turkish Perry class frigates got an upgrade with the installation of the GENESIS system. The newly developed Milgem corvettes are going to receive the improved GENESIS-II and for the U214 submarine there is planned a submarine version of the GENESIS. No more source code troubles + many critical subsystems that are indigenously produced for optimal use.

From the information I have it now appears likely for the TN214 the CMS as you have mentioned will be an indigenous modified GENESIS system incorporating Link 11 CCS, ESM/ELINT is likely to be German sourced (Zeiss or Kollmorgen) and hull form will be standard U214. Displacement will be around HN specifications for the Aegean (1600/1850t) for HN U214 boats.

 

[fatman17]

Pakistan-Germany to expand ties in defence

ISLAMABAD, Sep 5 (APP): Pakistan and Germany on Thursday expressed the desire to further develop and deepen bilateral cooperation in various fields particularly in the area of defence. This was discussed at a meeting held in Ministry of Defence Rawalpindi Minister for Defence Ch. Ahmed Mukhtar and the visiting German Defence Minster Dr. Franz Josef Jung, who called on the Minister.

The meeting emphasized the need for closer collaboration in the field of defence. This german side indicated that it would assist Pakistan in meeting its defence requirements.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )

are we getting closer to the sub deal !

 

[IceCold]

are we getting closer to the sub deal !

Lets hope so that we are. But on a side note i for one am still confused on PNs decision to go for the U-214 over Malin/scorpean It might be a few steps ahead over its french counterpart but then again thats not the only thing one has to keep in mind before inducting a war machine. What about the reliability of the supplier for uninterrupted spare parts and how much TOT will be allowed and also the infrastructure to handle such technology. We already have the infrastruscture to handle the french.

 

[Jliu]

Pakistan-Germany to expand ties in defence

ISLAMABAD, Sep 5 (APP): Pakistan and Germany on Thursday expressed the desire to further develop and deepen bilateral cooperation in various fields particularly in the area of defence. This was discussed at a meeting held in Ministry of Defence Rawalpindi Minister for Defence Ch. Ahmed Mukhtar and the visiting German Defence Minster Dr. Franz Josef Jung, who called on the Minister.

The meeting emphasized the need for closer collaboration in the field of defence. This german side indicated that it would assist Pakistan in meeting its defence requirements.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )

are we getting closer to the sub deal !

You have to remember that media reports are more often than not unreliable but for the purposes of discussion we'll try to analyse this article. Here are some points with appropriate diplomatic phrases explained.

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - PM Gilani for enhanced Pak-German defence cooperation

"Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Friday said that German government’s relaxation in its present policy of exports of small arms to Pakistan will strengthen Pakistan’s capability to fight terrorism."

Some G-36C/K/E or USP type handguns etc for Pakistani SOF.

The Prime Minister said that Pakistan greatly values its relations with Germany which are based on mutual respect and shared perceptions on significant regional and international issues.

The Prime Minister welcomed the growing military and defence cooperation between the two countries and said that this would help in further strengthening relations between the two nations.

He noted that the high-level contacts are effective tools for strengthening cooperation between the two countries.

The Prime Minister urged for increased official exchanges and people to people contacts between Pakistan and Germany in the interest of adding substance to the relationship.

The usual waffle.

He also assured the Prime Minister that his government would consider the proposals made by Pakistan’s side for increased defence cooperation between the two countries.

There is no mention of any assistance by the German side on defence per se but "consider" is in the context of balancing relations with both India and Pakistan. Of the Big '4' arms exporters/powers of the EU, Germany and the UK are generally regarded as favouring defence relations with India while France and Italy are more inclined towards the Pakistani market, France having good relations with both sides. In my opinion the Germans remain uncommitted with only token concessions on small arms because no MoU was signed like the Indo-German MoU in 2006. If its not on paper then its worthless. Their exisiting offer of $US 4billion for kit construction of three boats is extremely costly compared with French "arms packages".

 

[Jliu]

Lets hope so that we are. But on a side note i for one am still confused on PNs decision to go for the U-214 over Malin/scorpean It might be a few steps ahead over its french counterpart but then again thats not the only thing one has to keep in mind before inducting a war machine. What about the reliability of the supplier for uninterrupted spare parts and how much TOT will be allowed and also the infrastructure to handle such technology. We already have the infrastruscture to handle the french.

The answer lies in systems. The U214 design and especially the TN214 can be networked into a system via the Link11 COM with similar US sourced equipment. The PN's future force modernisation will likely comprise possible OHP FFs, Milgem FF/Corvettes which both utilise US electronics extensively and networking is essential for modern warfare in all fields.

But everything else you say are valid concerns especially given the price tag of weapon platforms presently.