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Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

Jliu and Proud to be Pakistani.
I know it is probably not my place but being elder than both of you, may I request you both to calm down and maintain the decorum that has been customary for this forum. If you have issues they should be discussed via private emails. Let us avail of each others knowledge and make this forum enjoyable for all rather than herl insults at each other. Again I apologize to you both but thought it would be nice if you guys could resolve your differences and move on.
regards
Araz
 
Jliu.
Thank you for your informative post. There was news that OHP might be freed up from SN stack by 2009. I guess we have to wait and see. I agree that at the moment there is a lot going on behind the scenes on cooperation with Turkey and theMilgem is one such project that has been highlighted.
on the Sub front, all indications so far tend to go in favour of U 214. I guess again, we may have to wait and see.
Regards
Araz

OHP is not on the Cards. Elle Class was an Option way Back but PN opted for ordering F-22P and not invested in older Vessels, and Turkish Co-ordination on Milgem Class will be the Option PN has and will Opt for.

Any Older Ship Entering PN is Difficult to believe at this moment. PN has to restrict it self with Expected 4 F-22P and 4 Milgems at the most into 2011.

Submarine Acquisition is on the menu before 2011. We can see a decision on U-214 or Marlin in 6 Months at the most i would say. PN badly requires 3-6 Subs since it is with 3 Agosta 90B's and 2 Agosta 70's at this time.
 
Proud to be Pakistani
Thankyou for your post. Are OHP totally off the PN's wish list or are they just not available in the time frame that PN wants them? As I gathered from visiting various fora, Milgem would not be on offer till 2011-12 in any way. Is this a true notion or is PN going to buy it before it gets inducted in Turkish Navy?
regards
Araz
 
Proud to be Pakistani
Thankyou for your post. Are OHP totally off the PN's wish list or are they just not available in the time frame that PN wants them? As I gathered from visiting various fora, Milgem would not be on offer till 2011-12 in any way. Is this a true notion or is PN going to buy it before it gets inducted in Turkish Navy?
regards
Araz

Dear Araz, check the Think Tank Group!
 
ThanksFatman
Already have had a look or rather an oggle:cheesy::yahoo:
Kindest regards
araz
 
JLIU,

Just curious, have you seen a Submarine!...

Ever been inside one!

If I had not and did not throughly know my field then I would not bother posting on this forum.

As for myself I will only disclose that I am a serving officer of the RAN undersea arm and that is enough.

As for your private email point there is absolutely no need for such nonsense. All correspondence may be conducted openly on this forum.

A person who hides where he is from and where he is..... What he is, will always be a Question Mark... No?

Your very noticeable lack of professionalism calls into question your claim of PN naval service as well as your level of 'knowledge'.

You should know very well that in our field that we are held to the highest standards assuming you are even of our field.

Given your record of copy/pasting from other sites to substitute and not add to your argument as well your American spelling conventions I would judge you to be a 18-25 year old fanboy or the in best instance, a seaman with limited knowledge at most.

Jliu and Proud to be Pakistani.
I know it is probably not my place but being elder than both of you, may I request you both to calm down and maintain the decorum that has been customary for this forum. If you have issues they should be discussed via private emails. Let us avail of each others knowledge and make this forum enjoyable for all rather than herl insults at each other. Again I apologize to you both but thought it would be nice if you guys could resolve your differences and move on.
regards
Araz

Acknowledged although it may not be the case with age. However unprofessional conduct by a probable liar must be dealt with severely. In addition you may ask yourself if he has bothered to reference or quote any of his speculations with current events or sources.
 
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Submarine Acquisition is on the menu before 2011. We can see a decision on U-214 or Marlin in 6 Months at the most i would say.

That one doesn't take a genius to figure out. It remains the PN's only funded priority once the F22P's reach IOC given a complete lack of funding for other projects and the Army siphoning off more for "missile programs".

PN badly requires 3-6 Subs since it is with 3 Agosta 90B's and 2 Agosta 70's at this time.

Another random piece of speculation by you. Most members would even a basic modicum of common sense would see it is pure rubbish. Where exactly does the 6 figure come from?

Have you even seen the undisclosed RFP yet? My Indian contacts confirm it is somewhere between 3-4 boats so when it is released we can all have a good laugh at your idiocy.

If you ask Mark Sien (someone who actually knows what he's talking about) he believes the Germans offered an "arrogant deal" for the U214s ie. a $US500-600 million deal per U214 not including lead in materials, licensing fees or weapons fit. You'd be lucky to get one at that rate with an entire naval budget approximating $US 1 bn after all est salaries, fuel costs, kickbacks, corruption and maintenance costs have been factored in. The only way the PN is going to get three Marlin/Scorpene boats is take the lesser opportunity cost and axe surface combatant displacement, quality and weapons fit in favor of smaller corvette/patrol FF class vessels.

With all due respect, after all procurement cycle phases are ended and kickbacks are paid the PN would be lucky to even end up with four. All indications are that only three boats can be procured a la' the Agosta 90Bs.
 
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alright ladies, break it up. this catfight has gone on long enough, sometimes it's fun to watch a catfight, but it gets annoying after a while.

you guys both have real experience with navies. one is in the position to tell us what the pakistan navy can do, has, etc.

one is in the position to tell us what weapons systems are out there, and what not. I would like to state my ideas and ask a few questions to both of you while i'm at it.


Just to ADD...

Agno, Araz and Waz..

Just to put some light on Infrustructure of PN for DCN subs, the MESMA on both 2nd and 3rd Subs of Agosta 90B Class will also be installed in Pakistan and for that the length increases from 67m to 76m and submerged displacement from 1,760t to 2,050t.

The AIP system requirements are known to Pakistan and we are now familiar with the MESMA AIP.

In the initial i.e. the first phase, fabrication and mounting of all seating, piping as well as cabling and equipment mounting required during pre-outfitting is taken in hand. This phase has already been completed through detailed planning coordination, work preparation - and through strict quality control at each step. This of course is due to the effort of a motivated workforce which is responsible for this achievement in the Dockyard.

Immediately after the lowering - the sections are junctioned and the Second Phase commences which also includes the final outfitting.

The main event of the Phase I is the transfer of the sections to graving dock and accurately placing on keel blocks for which state of the art theodolites are used. This operation is the key operation in Phase I.

To use a bit of the technical naval jargon - the operation discussed above is quite intricate and is conducted with the help of four Dual Walking Beams - and a specially installed Dock Lift System. The movements of this apparatus are highly precise and are synchronised to ensure safety of men as well as the section itself.

The maximum transfer of Technology was envisaged in submarine No. 3. The cylindrical part of the pressure hull was built from raw plates. All major structures and appendages were built in Pakistan. The work of pressure hull construction was shared between PN Dockyard and KS&EW. PN Dockyard provided the material after cutting to size and shape on NC cutting machine to KS&EW. This kit of material was rolled/formed and welded to make 12 subsections. These subsections were taken to Section Building Hall in PN Dockyard to make 03 large sections. On completion of pressure hull these three sections were pre-outfitted with decks, bulkheads and large structures. Based on similar construction methodology these sections along with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) system MESMA were oufitted.

The submarine construction at PN Dockyard Department is now fully qualified as per ISO-2000

By the acquisition of this capability '... Pakistan Navy can now think ahead to explore new dimensions for the use of the facilities developed for submarine construction.


MESMA AIP system has its lesser ends some what correct over fuel cells but the advantage of MESMA is its maintainence. The greatest challenge for fuel-cell AIP systems lies in storing the reactants. Although oxygen can be handled with relative safety as LOX, storing hydrogen onboard as a liquid or high-pressure gas is very dangerous.

The efficiency of Fuel Cell is greater than MESMA but the power output of Fuel Cells is lesser than the MESMA.

Paksitan should get French support and start Scorpene or Marlin or whatever but DCN based, now with available infrustructure should not take long to make a Sub ready within Pakistan.

Repeating all the efforts again with Germans will be a bad choice if we want to see Pakistan make its own Sub in near Future.

P2BP:

you seem to know a lot on what we can do in terms of sub-building. you also mentioned that we can take it up a notch and possibly engage a venture of our own in sub-building.

Does Pakistan have any R&D units in hydrodynamic, sub-design, composite materials for reducing acoustic signature, sonar, whatever?

Can we possibly build anything on our own, like a SSK? I'm not saying anything advanced that the Germans of French are offering, but producing anything at all means a lot.


Chances are that it is remote, however it could happen given the propensity of the French to offer a good deal and the fact that the Scorpene is regarded in the industry as the best "capability for value" boat ie. it packs fair performance for the amount it costs.

Performance:
-acoustic sig management
-sensor fit
-weapons fit and integration
-hull design and maneuverability

Unfortunately for the PN in recent news the IN seems to be leasing one and then two Akula IIs, IOC 2009-10. Now while they probably will be based on the East coast the PN still must take their performance levels into account when procuring a new generation of combatants as it is the nature of SSNs to be capable of rapid underwater transits. Still, I believe that if Pakistan makes its interest known through back channels then the PN could certainly end up procuring up the Marlin as while I have heard many complain about its similarity to the Scorpene (aka. "mini Rubis") I assure you that the "mini Barracuda" is anything but.

The million dollar question: Just how much of the Barracuda is France willing to put in the Marlin?

Jliu:

It's news to me that the french dropped the Marlin offer a while ago, but will the french really offer it now after the U214 deal is in the dumps?

Also you left out the million dollar question. Unfortunately, I can't live without spoilers, how much of the barracuda will be incorporated into the Marlin?

P2BP/Jliu:

For both of you, this is how I see it ( not that my opinion matters anyway ). The U214 was being chased by the PN, mainly because they wanted to integrate harpoons? I don't believe the Germans can build better subs than the French.

I'm personally hoping the PN opts for the Marlin, the French will definitely give us the better deal.

  • The French are very reliable, they've always helped us out
  • The Agostas came with full ToT, which is unheard of for subs and Pakistan
  • As Jliu mentioned earlier, the French are delaying ToT on some critical things for the Scorpene deal with India. This could mean a lot for Pakistan.
  • The French aren't doing to well in their arms sales. The last leader came to Pakistan to offer the deal himself along with a car production factory :lol:
  • Because they need to export, they may be willing to give a lot more tech goodies in the deal for Marlin. This could possibly help us a lot on our own future N-sub programs, in which the French could give assistance.
  • The Scorpene was based of the Rubis class, while the Marlin is based off the barracuda, a totally new design. I personally think the Marlin, which specifically Pakistan receives, will be a lot more better than anything else out there, including the U214 and other Marlins exported to other countries.

What do you guys think? The French can possibly include a VLS for Babur. I've heard from higher-ups, the French give us stuff you won't believe. I think this confirms the post on this thread about OSINT, meaning specs are misleading.
 
P2BP:

you seem to know a lot on what we can do in terms of sub-building. you also mentioned that we can take it up a notch and possibly engage a venture of our own in sub-building.

Does Pakistan have any R&D units in hydrodynamic, sub-design, composite materials for reducing acoustic signature, sonar, whatever?

Can we possibly build anything on our own, like a SSK? I'm not saying anything advanced that the Germans of French are offering, but producing anything at all means a lot.

Ironically, whatever has been done in TOT of Agosta's has not been taken to a level which is called a Self Reliance level. Like when you get a tech knowledge you start a R&D and develope associated infrustructure for Materials and equipments developement and procurement and an overall understanding of the system you are getting Involved in. PN and GOP should have started a Project of 3 New Agosta's all completely integerated and developed within Pakistan with R&D involved and with atleast 30% of the components made in Pakistan for the 1st Sub but it was not done. We have the ability to grow in this field by the experience and Infrustructure developed but we require atleast 5 years and associated Infrustructure to become self reliant and developing a Sub of our own with Technical help of DCN.

As for the Marlin...all of Barracuda tech except the Propulsion was to be incorporated. Note that Barracuda is to have Naval Scalp Cruise Missile (MBDA). Marlin incorporating Babur is on the shelf.

If anyone in the world has done which they should not have done in case of Pakistan ... Its the French. Pakistan and France go a long way in all fields in which no one was and is willing to do the Job... As is the case that all our Subs of Agosta Class ... 90B's and 70 are integrated to fire Harpoon Missiles... I thought you knew that... Everyone does!

In addition to Exocet Agosta's can Fire Harpoons also but do not underestimate Exocet... It is in league with Harpoons by all means..

Let me be speculative again and i shall provide no link to what i write but note that if you disagree then you provide arguement .. No?

Even the Daphne Class Subs of French had lesser noise level than the Kilos of Russia and the German U boats... Agosta 70 is the quietest in the Indian Ocean ..... Let alone the 90B's... French Subs are less noisier than any Russian or German Subs.
 
Ironically, whatever has been done in TOT of Agosta's has not been taken to a level which is called a Self Reliance level. Like when you get a tech knowledge you start a R&D and develope associated infrustructure for Materials and equipments developement and procurement and an overall understanding of the system you are getting Involved in.
so you're saying that we can build subs from scratch, basically manufacture. but we can't design a new sub, or advance it because there's no R&D?

Don't we have sonars, some submarine equipment made in Pakistan? I mean if we can make a hull, the rest should be easy. We can possibly send students abroad to France as a part of the next deal. This may sound crazy,but if Russians can give this kind of help to India and China, France should be able to do that for us.

PN and GOP should have started a Project of 3 New Agosta's all completely integerated and developed within Pakistan with R&D involved and with atleast 30% of the components made in Pakistan for the 1st Sub but it was not done. We have the ability to grow in this field by the experience and Infrustructure developed but we require atleast 5 years and associated Infrustructure to become self reliant and developing a Sub of our own with Technical help of DCN.
but we do have the stuff you are talking about now, after the 3rd sub right? You mentioned full transfer of technology was complete when we started on the 3rd sub. we can start from here, it's never too late for this type of stuff.

Just look at India, they haven't even built one SSK, and now they're completing their SSBN (I know it's not a joke, this type of stuff can be dangerous) in the mean while get the Marlin with full ToT.


If anyone in the world has done which they should not have done in case of Pakistan ... Its the French. Pakistan and France go a long way in all fields in which no one was and is willing to do the Job... As is the case that all our Subs of Agosta Class ... 90B's and 70 are integrated to fire Harpoon Missiles... I thought you knew that... Everyone does!
My fault, I read it on an article from defensetalk. but like I said before, the French have done unthinkable stuff for us. what i've heard from people-in-the-know is shocking, for me at least.

anyways, we should get the Marlin. the french will give us anything if we become their favoured customer. a miniaturised barracuda, which is no where near production yet, promises some good stuff.
 
alright ladies, break it up. this catfight has gone on long enough, sometimes it's fun to watch a catfight, but it gets annoying after a while.

Quite annoying when somebody calls you a liar to your face. Despite the fact I'm not currently serving on a submarine and havn't been for some time since promotion does NOT mean that I have never served on a submarine. Moving on, I'm open to a truce for the purposes for quality discussion and options of the PN. It's your navy after all and one I greatly respect.

Jliu:

It's news to me that the french dropped the Marlin offer a while ago, but will the french really offer it now after the U214 deal is in the dumps?

To tell you the truth Asaad, nothing in SSK procurement terms is ever "dropped" per se, rather it remains in the "grey zone" until you fork up enough cash and/or poltical leverage to pull it back into the "green zone". The most probable reason the U214 deal is in the dumps is because of Israeli/Indian pressure and the upcoming Indian SSK deal that the 214 should have bagged back in 2005 if not for a man named George Fernandes who also happened to be Indian Minister for Defence.

Also you left out the million dollar question. Unfortunately, I can't live without spoilers, how much of the barracuda will be incorporated into the Marlin?

Nobody knows. I don't although we're trying very hard to find out as this is a PACRIM navy on the verge of procuring a Tier 3 design. As well as the Israelis, Indians, Chinese, Malaysians, Americans and everyone else. As P2BP has pointed out, it appears that "most" of the sensor, propulsion, sonar and all of the weapons fit bar SCALP EG on the Barracuda will be incorporated into the Marlin. My guess is that the Marlin will be similar (same sensor fit w/ 'slight downgrade', 7+ blade propeller instead of pumpjets, same weapons) The French also have a very funny habit of creating SSK versions of their SSNs retaining most of their structural fit/electronics and a virtually identical exterior profile with only cosmetic changes to the placement of the foreplanes on the sail which is why I have referred to the Scorpene as a "mini Rubis" and Marlin as a "mini Barracuda". Just pull up visuals of these boats and you'll see what I mean. It looks like the PN is looking to getting 2-4 "mini Barracudas".

P2BP/Jliu:

For both of you, this is how I see it ( not that my opinion matters anyway ). The U214 was being chased by the PN, mainly because they wanted to integrate harpoons? I don't believe the Germans can build better subs than the French.

Maybe. There are two main theories floating around. No.1 is merely that the PN intended to go French all along and that the U214 media racket was to give the GoP some negotiating power at the bargaining table. No.2 is that the U214 represented a clear capability overmatch against the Marlin in 2005-06(which at that time was still on the drawing table and specs/performance were largely unknown). I personally think a marriage of 1 and 2.

Now I won't discuss the relative capabilities of the Agosta90B and the Scorpene given the last time that happened P2BP and I got into a fight but it is clear that while the former are lumped by industry into one category while the U214 and evo-Scorpene designs are in the following, more advanced category. (Don't ask me about design generations, too confusing).

The Germans build boats similar to the French in role and mission fit. Without going into technical details I can lump the U212, U214, Marlin and S-80 into Tier 3 (most advanced). The Swedes don't count as they are terribly secretive with OSINT specs (which always turn out to be false) and the Russians save their best acoustic signature management for their SSNs and don't get me started on the submerged human mine tubes the Chinese possess.

I'm personally hoping the PN opts for the Marlin, the French will definitely give us the better deal.

  • The French are very reliable, they've always helped us out
  • The Agostas came with full ToT, which is unheard of for subs and Pakistan
  • As Jliu mentioned earlier, the French are delaying ToT on some critical things for the Scorpene deal with India. This could mean a lot for Pakistan.
  • The French aren't doing to well in their arms sales. The last leader came to Pakistan to offer the deal himself along with a car production factory :lol:
  • Because they need to export, they may be willing to give a lot more tech goodies in the deal for Marlin. This could possibly help us a lot on our own future N-sub programs, in which the French could give assistance.
  • The Scorpene was based of the Rubis class, while the Marlin is based off the barracuda, a totally new design. I personally think the Marlin, which specifically Pakistan receives, will be a lot more better than anything else out there, including the U214 and other Marlins exported to other countries.

What do you guys think? The French can possibly include a VLS for Babur. I've heard from higher-ups, the French give us stuff you won't believe. I think this confirms the post on this thread about OSINT, meaning specs are misleading.

I think its funny how you always speak of the Chinese as "fair weather" friends when it should be the French. But then most of what France has done for you can never be made public.
 
Moving on, I'm open to a truce for the purposes for quality discussion and options of the PN. It's your navy after all and one I greatly respect.
Thank you Jliu.

P2BP,

I would encourage you to accept this olive branch and recognize that different views can exist, and that one can always disagree with civility, and present counterarguments with civility.

The Naval enthusiasts and 'babes' on this forum would love to educate ourselves on the PN through 'quality discourse' - and both of you can help in that regard.

Cheers.
 
Even the Daphne Class Subs of French had lesser noise level than the Kilos of Russia and the German U boats... Agosta 70 is the quietest in the Indian Ocean ..... Let alone the 90B's... French Subs are less noisier than any Russian or German Subs.

I beg to differ. Despite the acoustic sig management techniques that the French have applied to the 90Bs (and has somehow migrated to the PLAN Song and Yuan class), all diesels are inherently "silent" or close to the salient threshold of 4-5knts at 2/3 diving depth.

Don't throw out broad generalisations that Platform X is somehow "better" and "quieter" than Platform Y-it makes you look like a fanboy whether or not you are one. It's not true given that nobody has ever gained the exact performance specs of those various platforms in live fire trials. Have you ever checked what else patrols the Indian Ocean? (hint: Diego Garcia as well as the Great Southern Landmass).

But still, maybe you meant the Indo-Pak context and you do have a high chance of being correct.
 
Thank you Jliu.

P2BP,

I would encourage you to accept this olive branch and recognize that different views can exist, and that one can always disagree with civility, and present counterarguments with civility.

The Naval enthusiasts and 'babes' on this forum would love to educate ourselves on the PN through 'quality discourse' - and both of you can help in that regard.

Cheers.

Agno
You have said it all mate!! Jliu and P2BP ,we the knowledge deprived community of this forum welcome your presence and can only hope that in the process of discussion that follows we will be fulfilling our thirst for knowledge in a sphere, where at least i know very little. Let the discussion continue Gentlemen!!
Regards
Araz
 
To tell you the truth Asaad, nothing in SSK procurement terms is ever "dropped" per se, rather it remains in the "grey zone" until you fork up enough cash and/or poltical leverage to pull it back into the "green zone". The most probable reason the U214 deal is in the dumps is because of Israeli/Indian pressure and the upcoming Indian SSK deal that the 214 should have bagged back in 2005 if not for a man named George Fernandes who also happened to be Indian Minister for Defence.
well, that's good to hear. if we can get our hands on that thing, it'll have additional benefits in the long term besides just getting a sub. I think it will definitely put us as the most favoured customer of France.


Nobody knows. I don't although we're trying very hard to find out as this is a PACRIM navy on the verge of procuring a Tier 3 design. As well as the Israelis, Indians, Chinese, Malaysians, Americans and everyone else. As P2BP has pointed out, it appears that "most" of the sensor, propulsion, sonar and all of the weapons fit bar SCALP EG on the Barracuda will be incorporated into the Marlin. My guess is that the Marlin will be similar (same sensor fit w/ 'slight downgrade', 7+ blade propeller instead of pumpjets, same weapons) The French also have a very funny habit of creating SSK versions of their SSNs retaining most of their structural fit/electronics and a virtually identical exterior profile with only cosmetic changes to the placement of the foreplanes on the sail which is why I have referred to the Scorpene as a "mini Rubis" and Marlin as a "mini Barracuda". Just pull up visuals of these boats and you'll see what I mean. It looks like the PN is looking to getting 2-4 "mini Barracudas".
well, I think you mentioned something earlier about DCN "delaying" a certain technology transfer to india, maybe in hopes of wooing Pakistan. I'm hoping that the Scorpene isn't the best of the best, but I've heard from Indian sources, that their Scorpene will be able to dive deeper than others.

I still think the french will give much more in marlin, since it's their own complete project. not like the scorpene, where they were partnered with Spain.


Maybe. There are two main theories floating around. No.1 is merely that the PN intended to go French all along and that the U214 media racket was to give the GoP some negotiating power at the bargaining table. No.2 is that the U214 represented a clear capability overmatch against the Marlin in 2005-06(which at that time was still on the drawing table and specs/performance were largely unknown). I personally think a marriage of 1 and 2.
well, that's why we should get the Marlin! it's still on the drawing board, nothings concrete just like the barracuda itself. perhaps the french can use the U214 as a measuring stick. The Marlin will go to the next level, in SSK design. just like you said, it'll be almost a copy of the barracuda, except miniaturised.


Now I won't discuss the relative capabilities of the Agosta90B and the Scorpene given the last time that happened P2BP and I got into a fight but it is clear that while the former are lumped by industry into one category while the U214 and evo-Scorpene designs are in the following, more advanced category. (Don't ask me about design generations, too confusing).
i'm not going to ask you what the evo-Scorpene is, but I will ask you, does india have it?


I think its funny how you always speak of the Chinese as "fair weather" friends when it should be the French. But then most of what France has done for you can never be made public.
well, i wasn't really the one on this forum who would publicise something like that. From the start the French have been very reliable, although they have sold a lot of stuff to our rivals. still, in subs, I think they were planning from the beginning to give a "far-more superior" submarine to Pakistan, compared to the Scorpene. I think the French planned to sell the scorpene to india, in hopes of selling the Marlin to Pakistan. this would get their Marlin project out of the drawing board and into production. I'm also certain the french will give a lot of goodies with the Marlin.

of course the chinese have helped us to whatever extent they could. we were the first ones to be offered the J-10, F-22P on ToT, etc. There's a lot of cooperation in space technology going on between us. they have transferred some missile technology. of course we didn't use their bomb designs, but they still offered.

however, i don't think our military planners are totally relying on the chinese for everything. no one's going to help you build a SSN, ICBM, or whatever. we have our own engineers and specialist to work on these things now.
 

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