Pakistan's New F-16s Can Beat India's Su-30s; Rafales Are The Counter

[abdulbarijan]

 

[GURU DUTT]

 

[abdulbarijan]

 

[Last Samuri]

Abdulbarijan.

Do Some research on the concept of

TVC engines and their effect on AOA which are crucial in WVR dog fighting. Lef me give a example F16 max AOA is 28 Degrees SU30MKI is as high as 60 degrees.

Understand the concept of HMS ie helmet mounting sights on su30mki

IRST - Infra red search & track

Abdul do you know the MKI carries a PESA radar and a F16/52 of PAF carrys the old MSA radar.

Do you understand the difference between PESA AND MSA.

You people need educating that the F16 was great at defeating your muslim bros in MIG21/23 20 years ago.

BUT F16 was NOT built to FIGHT the SU30MKI or above SU35 J10

that job belongs to F35 F22 OR Typhoon rafale or F18 Super hornets with AESA.

but ABDUL you carry on telling us about your single sqd of 18 block 52 AND THE JORDANIAN JUNK PAF picked up recently

 

[abdulbarijan]

Abdulbarijan.

Do Some research on the concept of

TVC engines and their effect on AOA which are crucial in WVR dog fighting. Lef me give a example F16 max AOA is 28 Degrees SU30MKI is as high as 60 degrees.

Understand the concept of HMS ie helmet mounting sights on su30mki

IRST - Infra red search & track

Abdul do you know the MKI carries a PESA radar and a F16/52 of PAF carrys the old MSA radar.

Do you understand the difference between PESA AND MSA.

You people need educating that the F16 was great at defeating your muslim bros in MIG21/23 20 years ago.

BUT F16 was NOT built to FIGHT the SU30MKI or above SU35 J10

that job belongs to F35 F22 OR Typhoon rafale or F18 Super hornets with AESA.

but ABDUL you carry on telling us about your single sqd of 18 block 52 AND THE JORDANIAN JUNK PAF picked up recently

Man this was turning in to a thing of beauty with the meme's -- but you had to bring all this up again ....

Now don't take this the wrong way, but since you were kind enough to advise me, let me dish out a couple advises -- First off, you should do a little research on the concept of "QBSYU" -- that is -- "Quoting Bull Sh!t You Understand" --

Coming to your response as far as TVC goes, go and take a look at that video leaked in 2008, where a USAF colonel talks about how effective TVC on Russian jets is ... as far as HMS is concerned -- there is this thing called JHMCS (Joint helmet mounted cueing system) one of the MOST advanced HMS's in the world which PAF also happens to use ... I don't know for sure if the Aim-9M versions we are using has HOBS -- maybe @Horus can enlighten you on that ....

As far as the radar goes, sure nobody argued that the BARS PESA is superior to the APG-68 V9 -- but then again -- If your an elephant with one of those telescopes on an airgun and I'm a rabbit with simple binoculars -- the fact that your using a telescope doesn't make much of a difference now does it ?? -- because the detection ranges would be similar --- and then you'd have to get in closer to get a shot if you want it to be effective since BVR shots over long ranges like 100 odd Km's are useless -- and then you'd have to face the Aim-120 C5 which just happens to be amongst the best and most reliable BVR's in the world ...

and by the way atleast have the courtesy to quote me before you reply so that I'm actually notified that you've responded to my post, instead of just writing the name and going off on your high horse ...

Jets are made with the intention of coping with future threats --- and as much as it hurts for you -- It's not a simple matter of "HAHA -- we field MKI against PAF -- Everything solved" -- Check out Gambit's post on the F-16 a couple pages before -- here is an actual fighter pilot giving the F-16 the nod --

Lastly, you forget about the MLU upgrades that the PAF F-16's fleet has gotten recently -- PAF has done this before in project Rose -- where we took Mirages that were supposedly obsolete and turned them in to machines that are quite effective for the roles that they perform ... the F-7 PG is another example .. So don't be surprised if that supposed "junk" takes down one of your all so mighty MKI's ---

 

[Last Samuri]

Abdul

Re your Comment the F-7 PG is another example ..

So don't be surprised if that supposed "junk" takes down one of your all so mighty MKI's ---

IM fraid THAT IS EXACTLY what you will have to do

Since you only have 18 BLOCK 52s ( I,m not going to count the junk from Jordan ) its your massive fleet of obsolete F7 & MIRAGESS that will have to chase the 270 SU30mki. .

Your little fleet of 40 Old block a./b THAT YOUR RECENTLY UPGRADED will stand next to no chance against over 150 UPGRADED MIRAGE2000-5 and MIG29K & MIG29SMT.

" As good as your tiny fleet of falcons is in your book" THEY CANT BE IN 4 PLACES AT THE SAME TIME

Spare me the JF17 lecture that the mighty airforces of Bangaldesh rejected

 

[KingMamba]

Sounds like a push for more money in the next budget.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Abdul

Re your Comment the F-7 PG is another example ..

IM fraid THAT IS EXACTLY what you will have to do

Since you only have 18 BLOCK 52s ( I,m not going to count the junk from Jordan ) its your massive fleet of obsolete F7 & MIRAGESS that will have to chase the 270 SU30mki. .

Your little fleet of 40 Old block a./b THAT YOUR RECENTLY UPGRADED will stand next to no chance against over 150 UPGRADED MIRAGE2000-5 and MIG29K & MIG29SMT.

" As good as your tiny fleet of falcons is in your book" THEY CANT BE IN 4 PLACES AT THE SAME TIME

Spare me the JF17 lecture that the mighty airforces of Bangaldesh rejected

How about you spare us your baloney where you compare the IAF of the future with the PAF of today -- where you have 272 MKI's and a fleet of 150 odd upgraded Mig's and M2K's (ofcourse adding in the purchase of Mig-29's by IN) -- Reality check -- SU-30 MKI deliveries haven't been completed, the upgrades have not been completed -- yet your talking as if you already have them in the bag ...

While poor little PAF has only 18 block 52's and "old upgraded F-16 A/B" --- now you have to explain this to me -- as Im really interested in what goes on in an Indian fanboy mind where, an MLU upgraded F-16 which BTW does bring it to block 50 standard if you actually look at the package it recieved --- is just an "upgraded old F-16" while M2K's and Mig-29's which were mostly purchased in the same era and were the same basic blocks/tranches are "UPGRADED M2K 5 and MIG-29 SMT" --

If we go by your logic these are just " upgraded Old Mirage H and Mig-29 B's " ---

Wasn't it India promising those surgical strikes -- and IAF was ready to do them --- what happened --- too chicken to take on an opponent you belive "has no chance" against you ??

As far as JFT goes, I don't need to spend much time on that or you for that matter --- because as exhibited your superiority complex will force you to ignore whats right there infront of you -- as you have demonstrated in the previous posts

You are kind of a crazy, no sense making guy.. keep it up .. you are near perfection...

Yes ofcourse -- I mean -- after all, I was responding to an Indian using the logic used in the post I quoted --- hence I can't blame you for those comments as those are quite reflective of the logic being used by specific Indian posters -- so thanks for atleast siding with the point I was trying to make ..

 

[Kao Boy]

So your argument is --- since the MKI beat the typhoons 12:0 because of reasons A,B & C --- therefore an MKI would also beat an F-16 because F-16 is older compared to a typhoon ...

First off, that 12:0 statement was taken back by the IAF, since -- you know -- it was false and RAF pointed that out for ya --- and its not really the first time that the IAF well wishers have gone berserk with their claims -- Be it Indra dhanush 07 where airforce monthly completely ripped the story that was presented to IAF fanboys, or that incident with the USAF colonel's video which pretty much exposed the "greatness of the IAF" and lets not forget the Cope India's --- What was it ?? --- We beat USAF 9:1 at Cope India's -- except when the ROE's were released, the claim became comical -- which is not an understatement as Indian victory at Cope India was something like....

Floyd Mayweather going " Not bragging but --- I have knocked out Muhammad Ali " --- following it up by " M.Ali at that time was 70 years of age, had Parkinson syndrome , was fighting with both his hands tied behind his back and a couple of my boys holding him down"

and lets not ignore the great logic, where since the F-16 is older then typhoon, hence if the IAF beat the typhoon it is automatically assumed that MKI will be whopping the falcons left & right .. funny how the typhoons have had kills over the MKI in Indra dhanush 07's and the fact that F-16 itself has participated with typhoons in different exercises and has got simulated kills ... and here is a kicker -- the SU-30, like the F-16 is also older compared to an EF-2000 ...

and while we're talking about records, lets not forget the IAF's biggest record, that makes it number one in the world i.e Crash record -- since we're assuming these records would be translating in to battle -- lets not be picky and choosy

You are kind of a crazy, no sense making guy.. keep it up .. you are near perfection...

 

[Henry ME 95]

THAT -- the highlighted -- happens more often than you think.

I learned to fly in a Cessna 152 back in 1981-82. Does that mean I can fly an F-4 ? If I put you, assuming you are a licensed automobile operator, into the cockpit of an F1 racer, does that mean you can credibly challenge Castroneves ? Your comment about the F-16 seems to be of the typical 'fanboy' kind who focuses solely on hardware specs and not on the human factor.

Operation Bolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Operation Bolo, half of the North Vietnamese MIG-21s were shot down by F-4s that were inferior in most specs. Your comment of "unless the pilot doesn't know what he is doing." was truly applicable there. The North Vietnamese pilots knew how to take off and land, knew how to operate the throttle and stick, and knew how to trigger the weapons, but that was pretty much "know what he is doing." The result ? The North Vietnamese pilots and their MIG-21s got slaughtered. Operation Bolo became text book example in every air forces in the world on how a wily pilot in a 'mediocre' aircraft can prevail over an opponent flying a technically superior machine.

Do you know what it is like to view the world from 20k ft from the bubble cockpit of an F-16 or anything equivalent ? I do. Do you know what it is like to have 9g on your body ? I do. Do you know what it is like to fly 10 meters altitude over the English Channel in Terrain Following mode in an F-111 ? I do.

Your comment about the F-16 compares to the F-15 was also revealing of your ignorance. Clue for you: No F-15 pilot want to meet an F-16, even the older analog A model, in a dogfight.

Here is something I learned from my 10 yrs in the USAF...

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

Anything that your airplane can do that your opponent either cannot or is inferior in specs, is a rule. The F-16 can turn 9g but the F-15 cannot, so position yourself to where you force the F-15 into a turning fight. The 9g capability is a rule. The F-15 have a larger radar than the F-16, that is a rule, so you being the F-15 pilot, should do whatever you can to maximize that advantage and force your opponent, F-16 or any fighter, to fight under your radar advantages. No matter what you fly, F-15 or F-16 or SU-30 or MIG-21 or F-4, how well you know yours and your opponent's machines determines how quickly you can force him to fight under your specs advantages -- rules. Your training, experiences, and wit matters as much as the hardware you fly.

What make the F-16 an extraordinary aircraft, one that WILL enter military aviation history among world's A-list, is its entire package, from design to shape to ergonomics, that make it easier for its pilot to move his opponent into inferior positions, in other words, if the F-16 pilot know what he is doing, the F-16 will make it easier for the pilot to win. You can have an airframe that can pull 9g, but if it require the pilot more cockpit work to achieve a 9g turn, odds are good that this pilot will lose in a fight against the F-16, which make it so easier for its pilot to turn 9g. Soviet/Russian aircrafts do not have a reputation of being easy to learn and to fly. How do we know ? We have a fleet of Soviet/Russian fighters in our possession to study. Our 'Red Eagles' pilots flew MIG-21s and trained US pilots on how to out-wit a MIG-21 pilot.

Other than against the Raptor, I will take my chances in an F-16.

Fanboy so you are into name calling?
No I am not a fighter pilot. However you comparing the Indian air force to the NVAF proves you lack a piece of knowledge. The IAF is one of the best trained air forces in the world, the PAF is moderately good but they aren't at IAF levels of training or professionalism.
However I was SOLELY talking about specs not pilot training (however I assumed everyone here was somewhat familiar with the IAF and PAF's training levels)
You bringing up the F-22 raptor is ironic because a lot of USAF pilots don't want to fly that deathtrap (it chokes its own pilot) the F-16 at least is a safe plane.
The F-15 has never been lost Air to Air combat it is the best plane the USAF has, F-16 different story.
There have been a lot of times where pilots in world air forces didn't know what they were doing. Korea (green north korean and Chinese pilots had superior fighters (MiG-15) to U.N forces but they knew their planes better). Other times include the arab-israeli wars, Iran-Iraq etc.
And yes under certain conditions even an F-5 can beat a SU-30 however only under certain conditions. If they are not met the pilot and his jet are screwed.

 

[airmarshal]

Before Indians begin to jump and blame it on Pakistan, they should check the source. Its an Indian report.

 

[Gazi]

The IAF is one of the best trained air forces in the world, the PAF is moderately good but they aren't at IAF levels of training or professionalism.

In terms of Battle Field Record I would Disagree as PAF Pilots have Engaged with lot of superior enemies in terms of Tech as well as Capabilities like in 2 Arab Israel wars(Flying Russian Planes against French Mirages of Israeli IAF) and also recorded Confirm Kills as well few Pakistani Pilots also took part and during Cold War PAF Pilots also engaged with Russian Jets as well though it remains only to Lock down stage and didnt went further so Pakistan has much better Battle Field record then Indians if you have done research before discussing that.

 

[Henry ME 95]

In terms of Battle Field Record I would Disagree as PAF Pilots have Engaged with lot of superior enemies in terms of Tech as well as Capabilities like in 2 Arab Israel wars(Flying Russian Planes against French Mirages of Israeli IAF) and also recorded Confirm Kills as well few Pakistani Pilots also took part and during Cold War PAF Pilots also engaged with Russian Jets as well though it remains only to Lock down stage and didnt went further so Pakistan has much better Battle Field record then Indians if you have done research before discussing that.

Years ago that was true.
However not after the 90s. The Pakistanis diverted massive amounts of finances from the Air Force to their nuclear and other assets. While India has been strengthening its air force significantly.
The PAF has been allowing itself to weaken while the Indian air force has been arming and training itself to the teeth.
We are in 2015 not 1971

 

[Viper0011.]

Since you only have 18 BLOCK 52s ( I,m not going to count the junk from Jordan ) its your massive fleet of obsolete F7 & MIRAGESS that will have to chase the 270 SU30mki. .

Your little fleet of 40 Old block a./b THAT YOUR RECENTLY UPGRADED will stand next to no chance against over 150 UPGRADED MIRAGE2000-5 and MIG29K & MIG29SMT.

Spare me the JF17 lecture that the mighty airforces of Bangaldesh rejected

Have you ever fought been to a fighter weapons school or its version of whatever India has? Have you ever been to an air-force base and had serious discussions with actual combat pilots in your entire life? Because by reading your post, its almost like a child high or drunk off of something, writing about dreams and Cinderella stories. I'd suggest you bring an actual IAF pilot on here and seek their advise on the topic. I am just trying to keep things factual. See you bold collection of nonesense above and help me understand:

1) Do the -16's from Jordan not fire AMRAAM's of AIM's? or aren't as maneuverable as -16's are known for?

2) Are you SURE that India wants to bring ALL of her SU-30's and top tier fighters like Mirages 2000's, etc (270+150 = 420 jets) in a war against Pakistan? What would you do with the remainder of India and other oceans and the Chinese?

3) Do you know out of 270 SU's and 1650 Mirages and Migs, how many are ACTUALLY combat ready at a given time?

4) Do you also think that a war will remain conventional if Pakistan detected over 300-400 planes inbound its territory??

5) Does JFT not fire bvr and wvr missiles? I'd give you a benefit that the JFT's may not be as agile as Mirage 2000 may be in a dog fight. But doesn't mean everything they'll fire will be missed

6) If over 100 SU-30's are lost (don't worry about what Pakistan will lose), and over 50-100 Migs and Mirages are lost in combat.......where do you think India will stand in terms of moral, its ability to keep a heavy fleet against the Chinese, "scaring the cows of smaller nations" and projecting air-power elsewhere, etc,etc??

I didn't like how rudely you addressed the gentleman above. So just to make you feel like that, now spare me the bull shiiit. India doesn't and will not want to go into a War with Pakistan. They know the fact about their expected losses in air battles. The last thing they want, is countries like Sri Lanka and Maldives to put in their face how they lost half the SU-30's against Pakistan (Whether they took out the entire PAF).

Half the "Fear" of a bigger power is to know they are superior "mentally". You take out that mental aspect, you lose that power status. See Israel for example, their pilots (similar to how the PAF's pilots operate), don't fear the three - four times sizable air-forces of their opponents. The results are that each time they went against them, they took them out in numbers (btw, Israel is now superior to Arabs in all aspects in air-warfare, in the 60's and 70's, they were all on par).

How about we stop "speculating" on this topic now? If tacking the PAF was that easy, TRUST ME, there would've been ongoing surgical strikes to make people in New Delhi happy.

 

[xyxmt]

Dont think 60 or so F-16s can be that much of a problem for the 230-250+ Su-30s + upgraded Mirage 2000s.

Most probably something to do with getting more funds for further jets or speed up the process.

because they know something that we dont know!
half of their SUs will be crashed by their pilot in next decade