Pakistan's New F-16s Can Beat India's Su-30s; Rafales Are The Counter

[abdulbarijan]

Windjammer Re Your Post



STOP TRYING TO COMPARE YOURSELF TO THE MIGHTY ISRAELI AIR FORCE.

PAF airforce is compatively ancient compared to 400 Strong Israely fighter fleet of F35 F15 F16sufi and Phalcon Awacs.

They have won wars in 6 days flat against 5 ARAB AIRFORCES.

They are a westernised highly civilised and educated society. These traits give them the edge over your muslim brother nations which like pakistan is relatively way behind in all aspects.

WITH YOUR MASSIVE FLEET OF F7 MIG21/ obselete mirage your are 400 FLEET STRONG but 80% obselete.

your severe lack of any sort of money means a war with india will bankrupt you in 7-10 days.

You do know that --- you kinda --- never addressed the point he was making --- he never said that the PAF is technologically on a similar level to the IDAF --- the only point he made was that PAF like IDAF was able to beat a much larger enemy in the IAF which BTW is actually true ---

and to think where you have to put in things like Israel is a highly educated society unlike Muslim countries to make a point on how superior an airforce is , hence others can't be compared to it because the levels of literacy and social/cultural norms are different to that of Israel is .... frankly pathetic ...

As far as obsolesce goes, we already have a solution in place, its called the JF-17 and it is replacing the aging aircraft and already has replaced the A-5's completely ... However lets not forget the fact that the IAF itself is composed of aging Mig-21's/23's/27's and the maintenance issues it has with its heavier fighters ...

 

[Thunder Bolt]

You are a pilot, who only fly simulators and not actual craft.. Sukhoi is an Air Dominance.. Always remember while operating your flight simulator...

We know our Air Dominance capabilities against F 16 52 variant which again has AmRAAM as compare to our ADder but again ministry only talks what IAF present them to get more advanced aircrafts... Su MKI 30 is enough to beat F 16.. Rafales will be cherry on cake... And hold on are we comparing Su MKI 30 which beat RAF typhoons in the joint combat training.. I hope we are not...

LOL what crap you are talking about simulator hahaha and coming to typhoon its kill in dog fight with f 16 is not hidden and rafale plate form still you didn't get so no cherry for now i already said come when you get rafale and
PAK FA T-50 no need of talking and giving crap resons for plateforms which you not hold cheers

 

[Indus Falcon]

THAT -- the highlighted -- happens more often than you think.

I learned to fly in a Cessna 152 back in 1981-82. Does that mean I can fly an F-4 ? If I put you, assuming you are a licensed automobile operator, into the cockpit of an F1 racer, does that mean you can credibly challenge Castroneves ? Your comment about the F-16 seems to be of the typical 'fanboy' kind who focuses solely on hardware specs and not on the human factor.

Operation Bolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Operation Bolo, half of the North Vietnamese MIG-21s were shot down by F-4s that were inferior in most specs. Your comment of "unless the pilot doesn't know what he is doing." was truly applicable there. The North Vietnamese pilots knew how to take off and land, knew how to operate the throttle and stick, and knew how to trigger the weapons, but that was pretty much "know what he is doing." The result ? The North Vietnamese pilots and their MIG-21s got slaughtered. Operation Bolo became text book example in every air forces in the world on how a wily pilot in a 'mediocre' aircraft can prevail over an opponent flying a technically superior machine.

Do you know what it is like to view the world from 20k ft from the bubble cockpit of an F-16 or anything equivalent ? I do. Do you know what it is like to have 9g on your body ? I do. Do you know what it is like to fly 10 meters altitude over the English Channel in Terrain Following mode in an F-111 ? I do.

Your comment about the F-16 compares to the F-15 was also revealing of your ignorance. Clue for you: No F-15 pilot want to meet an F-16, even the older analog A model, in a dogfight.

Here is something I learned from my 10 yrs in the USAF...

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

Anything that your airplane can do that your opponent either cannot or is inferior in specs, is a rule. The F-16 can turn 9g but the F-15 cannot, so position yourself to where you force the F-15 into a turning fight. The 9g capability is a rule. The F-15 have a larger radar than the F-16, that is a rule, so you being the F-15 pilot, should do whatever you can to maximize that advantage and force your opponent, F-16 or any fighter, to fight under your radar advantages. No matter what you fly, F-15 or F-16 or SU-30 or MIG-21 or F-4, how well you know yours and your opponent's machines determines how quickly you can force him to fight under your specs advantages -- rules. Your training, experiences, and wit matters as much as the hardware you fly.

What make the F-16 an extraordinary aircraft, one that WILL enter military aviation history among world's A-list, is its entire package, from design to shape to ergonomics, that make it easier for its pilot to move his opponent into inferior positions, in other words, if the F-16 pilot know what he is doing, the F-16 will make it easier for the pilot to win. You can have an airframe that can pull 9g, but if it require the pilot more cockpit work to achieve a 9g turn, odds are good that this pilot will lose in a fight against the F-16, which make it so easier for its pilot to turn 9g. Soviet/Russian aircrafts do not have a reputation of being easy to learn and to fly. How do we know ? We have a fleet of Soviet/Russian fighters in our possession to study. Our 'Red Eagles' pilots flew MIG-21s and trained US pilots on how to out-wit a MIG-21 pilot.

Other than against the Raptor, I will take my chances in an F-16.

Lets not forget before the fall of the Berlin wall, the US did manage to get it hands on a pair of Mig29's

 

[Viper0011.]

Lol please don't provide me the link of the interview of your whatever it is. It is nothing but a good joke you can have it for yourself.

The fact of the matter was that the PAF didn't have first shoot capability and really....0 BVR against many IAF squadrons with BVR. Let's stick to facts so the discussion can be productive.

An F-16 beat an SU-30MKI. is this a joke thread?
The F-16 (although not a bad fighter) is a medicore (compared to frontline American fighters like the F-15)

The bold sentence told me (and probably others) about your experience with fighter and weapon tactics!!! If you can access a USAF pilot with -15 flying experience, ask them about facing the -16. You'll be surprised to hear how much they despise facing the -16!!!

The bigger radar may be a good thing if another country or territory was in between India and Pakistan. But you are immediate neighbors. So the SU-30's BARS radar advantage isn't really there. Both the -16 and the SU-30 will see each other at the same time and will lock onto each other around the same time too. Majority of these situations, due to close proximity, will become WVR encounters. There is a reason why the PAF had built many FOB's within 50-100 KM's of the Indian border.

 

[Mani2020]

Multiple flaws in this article

Firstly PAF doesn't operate 2 squadrons of F-16s block 52 C/D

Secondly how can you declare an aircraft that hasn't been inducted yet to be superior to the one already being inducted in large numbers and already have received apparently atleast 1 export order with even future blocks coming out

Thirdly this article put an emphasis on close air to air combat but at the same time states that current age is of bvr warfare so its dichotomous in itself

Apart from that electronic warfare capabilities of F-16 vs SU-30mki is debatable and there is no clear cut way to reach to the conclusion that f-16 has superior electronic warfare capability as Su-30mki houses many systems of israeli and french origin (israeli in particular) and as we know how advanced israeli's tech is when it comes to components and subsystems of fighter jets. Even all the f-16s and F-15s of israeli air force house more local components than the components provided by manufacturer so that shows how much they have advanced in this field

Bottom line is another article out of desperation to finalize a much talked about and ever lingering rafael deal.... which not only will act as a pressurizing tactic on indian mod to increase the numbers of rafales and haste up things but also will make fanboys on the other side of the border think that IAF inventory is peanuts

 

[IND151]

in short yet another attempt by dassault and its paid stooges to push for a bigger order for rafales for IAF

Seems you are right.

Dont think 60 or so F-16s can be that much of a problem for the 230-250+ Su-30s + upgraded Mirage 2000s.

Most probably something to do with getting more funds for further jets or speed up the process.

Most probably you are right.

BTW I am seeig your post after many years? were you inactive for long time?

@Thunder Bolt

The SIngapore F 16 Block 52 + are STATIONED in India

They conduct exercises with our MiGs ; Sukhois and Mirages all round the year

IAF's MiG 29 and MiG 21 train with Singapore's Fighting Falcons in JMT - daily.bhaskar.com

Infact Indian Pilots ALSO Fly the Singapore F 16 Block 52 +

India to Continue Extending Training Facilities to Singapore Air Force

Thanks for Info

 

[abdulbarijan]

You know this discussion reminds me of the 80's where Michael Jordan was at the prime of his career, scoring 40/50 points a game, and you hadn't seen a more talented player then him, based on individual skill alone, he was compared to the Great Dr.J, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Wilt, Oscar, Bill Russel, Kareem and all those all time greats ---

But what happened to Jordan against Detroit Pistons serve as a grim lesson to those with the "one piece prowess thinking" -- and what I refer to by that is --- the thinking that makes people believe that one of your pieces is enough to take all of the opponent as by comparison it is superior to anything the opponent has ---

What happened -- The Detroit Pistons threw the Bulls (Jordan's team) off their game with team play and exposed the biggest weakness of the Bulls i.e the overreliability on Jordan -- and until Jordan understood and employed this team mentality with his team -- he never won a championship until then ....

So how is this relevant in a discussion about jets, well -- It's relevant because the same thinking patterns can be observed about the average Indian fanboy thinking (where IAF has MKI, and nothings superior hence IAF will always win), I don't know if its the thinking of the MOD of India I certainly hope so as it will favor Pakistan. The fact is -- when it's IAF vs PAF -- its one professional organization vs another -- how they employ their resources and how effectively they lower others to play by their rules will ultimately dictate the fate of the air war ...

 

[Not So Good]

THAT -- the highlighted -- happens more often than you think.

I learned to fly in a Cessna 152 back in 1981-82. Does that mean I can fly an F-4 ? If I put you, assuming you are a licensed automobile operator, into the cockpit of an F1 racer, does that mean you can credibly challenge Castroneves ? Your comment about the F-16 seems to be of the typical 'fanboy' kind who focuses solely on hardware specs and not on the human factor.

Operation Bolo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Operation Bolo, half of the North Vietnamese MIG-21s were shot down by F-4s that were inferior in most specs. Your comment of "unless the pilot doesn't know what he is doing." was truly applicable there. The North Vietnamese pilots knew how to take off and land, knew how to operate the throttle and stick, and knew how to trigger the weapons, but that was pretty much "know what he is doing." The result ? The North Vietnamese pilots and their MIG-21s got slaughtered. Operation Bolo became text book example in every air forces in the world on how a wily pilot in a 'mediocre' aircraft can prevail over an opponent flying a technically superior machine.

Do you know what it is like to view the world from 20k ft from the bubble cockpit of an F-16 or anything equivalent ? I do. Do you know what it is like to have 9g on your body ? I do. Do you know what it is like to fly 10 meters altitude over the English Channel in Terrain Following mode in an F-111 ? I do.

Your comment about the F-16 compares to the F-15 was also revealing of your ignorance. Clue for you: No F-15 pilot want to meet an F-16, even the older analog A model, in a dogfight.

Here is something I learned from my 10 yrs in the USAF...

In a fight, you win not by fighting under your opponent's rules, but by forcing him to fight under yours. And cheating is allowed.

Anything that your airplane can do that your opponent either cannot or is inferior in specs, is a rule. The F-16 can turn 9g but the F-15 cannot, so position yourself to where you force the F-15 into a turning fight. The 9g capability is a rule. The F-15 have a larger radar than the F-16, that is a rule, so you being the F-15 pilot, should do whatever you can to maximize that advantage and force your opponent, F-16 or any fighter, to fight under your radar advantages. No matter what you fly, F-15 or F-16 or SU-30 or MIG-21 or F-4, how well you know yours and your opponent's machines determines how quickly you can force him to fight under your specs advantages -- rules. Your training, experiences, and wit matters as much as the hardware you fly.

What make the F-16 an extraordinary aircraft, one that WILL enter military aviation history among world's A-list, is its entire package, from design to shape to ergonomics, that make it easier for its pilot to move his opponent into inferior positions, in other words, if the F-16 pilot know what he is doing, the F-16 will make it easier for the pilot to win. You can have an airframe that can pull 9g, but if it require the pilot more cockpit work to achieve a 9g turn, odds are good that this pilot will lose in a fight against the F-16, which make it so easier for its pilot to turn 9g. Soviet/Russian aircrafts do not have a reputation of being easy to learn and to fly. How do we know ? We have a fleet of Soviet/Russian fighters in our possession to study. Our 'Red Eagles' pilots flew MIG-21s and trained US pilots on how to out-wit a MIG-21 pilot.

Other than against the Raptor, I will take my chances in an F-16.

Though I don't know much about dogfight thing but your post is very good but one thing you sir ignored is that we are operating these same jets from past several decades and made our strategies based on advantages and disadvantages of these birds so I think the above said statement holds not much water

 

[Viper0011.]

Though I don't know much about dogfight thing but your post is very good but one thing you sir ignored is that we are operating these same jets from past several decades and made our strategies based on advantages and disadvantages of these birds so I think the above said statement holds not much water

The US has been operating the F-15 for 40+ years now and the same number of years of service is true for the -16. So if I go by your logic, it almost sounds like the US pilots flying the -15 didn't develop tactics to handle the -16 in 4 decades??

But India's, who's been operating the SU-30's for a couple of decades I think, in fact have developed these tactics??? Makes NO sense. Lets not marginalize someone's professional assessment just because the blind patriotism tells one that all things Indian are superior to everyone else's. SU-30 getting rid of a AIM-X missile through using TVC, is a sitting duck for a -16's guns, or another AIM-9. The post stall performance till fully recovered gives the other side from 8-14 seconds to position the angle for guns and go at it, or use another AIM9 and forget about where it's headed.

Like I said before, if India and Pakistan had another territory in between them, that might be a different story as the SU-30 can then take advantage of its massive radar and can see a -16, from over 300 KM's away. That's a lot of distance and give the SU-30 a first shot capability. But in India-Pakistan scenario, they are too close and the big radar advantage is none as both of them will see each other at the same time.

By the way, a bird told me that the 36 Rafale contract is also at risk now. The French have been pissed at the negotiations and what's being asked, from price reduction to setting up manufacturing in India for offsetting laws.

 

[rockstarIN]

T


Like I said before, if India and Pakistan had another territory in between them, that might be a different story as the SU-30 can then take advantage of its massive radar and can see a -16, from over 300 KM's away. That's a lot of distance and give the SU-30 a first shot capability. But in India-Pakistan scenario, they are too close and the big radar advantage is none as both of them will see each other at the same time.

By ths.

I have heard this argument several times. What makes you think that we deploy MKIs closer to the border. They are heavy fighters and mostly deployed well inside Indian space. Since both have AWACs the to AFs will come to know each other well in time. Having a big radar, big antenna. have its own advantages too. You wont see any ghost when you close in for a BVR shot.

 

[Not So Good]

The US has been operating the F-15 for 40+ years now and the same number of years of service is true for the -16. So if I go by your logic, it almost sounds like the US pilots flying the -15 didn't develop tactics to handle the -16 in 4 decades??

But India's, who's been operating the SU-30's for a couple of decades I think, in fact have developed these tactics??? Makes NO sense. Lets not marginalize someone's professional assessment just because the blind patriotism tells one that all things Indian are superior to everyone else's. SU-30 getting rid of a AIM-X missile through using TVC, is a sitting duck for a -16's guns, or another AIM-9. The post stall performance till fully recovered gives the other side from 8-14 seconds to position the angle for guns and go at it, or use another AIM9 and forget about where it's headed.

Like I said before, if India and Pakistan had another territory in between them, that might be a different story as the SU-30 can then take advantage of its massive radar and can see a -16, from over 300 KM's away. That's a lot of distance and give the SU-30 a first shot capability. But in India-Pakistan scenario, they are too close and the big radar advantage is none as both of them will see each other at the same time.

By the way, a bird told me that the 36 Rafale contract is also at risk now. The French have been pissed at the negotiations and what's being asked, from price reduction to setting up manufacturing in India for offsetting laws.

I didn't say a word about USAF, did I?????
Neither is the thread even remoely related to USAF
Btw you brought the Patriotism here, so I sincerely want to congratulate you for your Patriotism for your country

 

[black-hawk_101]

PAF should order more F-16s.

 

[Last Samuri]

if the Su30mki can beat the Typhoon 12 nil in a dog fight partly due to indian pilots superior training in WVR and partly due to the fact that SU30MKI with its TVC engines HMS and IRST package makes it far superior to Typhoon in close range combat. THEN surely the same applies to the much older F16 .

The simple fact is the TVC HMS IRST and weapons load GIVES THE MKI a very potent capability that most fighters cant get near...

In a KNIFE FIGHT its well documented the S30MKI will have the edge over the F16.

" where SU30MKI loses is its RCS and in a high speed long range BVR fight"

HAS THE PAKISTANIS KEEP TELLING US BVR ENGAGEMENT WILL NOT MATTER IN INDO PAK WAR..

For this reason india has the perfect fighter the SU30MKI

 

[Arsalan]

if the Su30mki can beat the Typhoon 12 nil in a dog fight partly due to indian pilots superior training in WVR and partly due to the fact that SU30MKI with its TVC engines HMS and IRST package makes it far superior to Typhoon in close range combat. THEN surely the same applies to the much older F16 .

The simple fact is the TVC HMS IRST and weapons load GIVES THE MKI a very potent capability that most fighters cant get near...

In a KNIFE FIGHT its well documented the S30MKI will have the edge over the F16.

" where SU30MKI loses is its RCS and in a high speed long range BVR fight"

HAS THE PAKISTANIS KEEP TELLING US BVR ENGAGEMENT WILL NOT MATTER IN INDO PAK WAR..

For this reason india has the perfect fighter the SU30MKI

You are referring to this humiliating 12-0 defeat?

NEW DELHI: The Air Force has backed down on claims over an absolute 'win' during a recent Indo-UK exercise with an official statement arguing that there are no 'wins and losses' during such war games. A detailed statement has come from the Air Force on exercise 'Indradhanush' that was held in the UK in July, days after reports surfaced quoting IAF officials that the Indian side had a whitewash victory.
Read more at:
Defence News - Air Force backs down on Indo-UK exercise 'claims'; says no wins and losses

 

[Kao Boy]

LOL what crap you are talking about simulator hahaha and coming to typhoon its kill in dog fight with f 16 is not hidden and rafale plate form still you didn't get so no cherry for now i already said come when you get rafale and
PAK FA T-50 no need of talking and giving crap resons for plateforms which you not hold cheers

Initial part was sarcastic ... Which u did not get... Compare F16 vs Su 30 MKI..