Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

[Robo]

Good question!

You are Talking about Flying away from FT-2000's 200km (as
assumed) Range?

ok lets analyze.

Total range of Phalcon approximate 400kms Radius .

Effective Range of FT-2000 = 200 Kms

Detection range of FT-2000 = 350kms

Phalcon's Effective Detection Range when flying away from FT-2000's Range : 400-220 = 180 kms.

So tell me why have you spent 1.1 Billion dollars for such a system which can only Detect and Track for only 180 kms??
And you only would have 3 of them so it is a huge risk and wastage of money you have spent .

Another risk for Indian Ground Radar stations stands out as Pakistan bought Brazilian MAR-1 ARM's.

And another " Huge threat to Ground Radar Stations "

RA'AD ALCM.

This "Stealth " Cruise missile would most likely be used for precision air strikes on enemy command centres, radars, surface to air missile launchers, ballistic missile launchers and stationary warships.

Operational range 350 km
Speed Subsonic
Guidance system INS, TERCOM, DSMAC, GPS, COMPASS
Launch platform Combat aircraft
Warhead Conventional HE or Nuclear



Regards:

180 KM is lot , but what about you, why u wasted your money on AWACS, If india deployed smiler missile in Indian borders where your AWACS planes will fly ?? in Afghanistan?? becasue in 200 KM whole Pak airspace will be covered? what a waste of money.

It all about measures and counter measures,

B) the Brazilian Anti Radiation missile is Max Range is 25KM, it means your plane has to penetrate envelop of long SAM and Medium SAM and then Short Range SAM...... Oh man

c) India also has land based Super Sonic Cruze missile with 300 Km range, i think it can cover whole PAK from borders..

 

[Kompromat]

[/B]QUOTE=Robo;636204]180 KM is lot , but what about you, why u wasted your money on AWACS, If india deployed smiler missile in Indian borders where your AWACS planes will fly ?? in Afghanistan?? becasue in 200 KM whole Pak airspace will be covered? what a waste of money.
first of all thread is about jets and SAM systems are secondary but anyway our saab 2000 and kj2000 are for defensive use not for peeping into india so they will operate on a safe or cleared areas and SAAB comes with an excelent EW suite.

It all about measures and counter measures,
yes and in our borders spada 2000 would be deployed.

the Brazilian Anti Radiation missile is Max Range is 25KM, it means your plane has to penetrate envelop of long SAM and Medium SAM and then Short Range SAM...... Oh man

its actual range is classified so cant afford telling you.
We have a backup in the shape of H4 BVRB

c) India also has land based Super Sonic Cruze

I know.. Thanks

missile with 300 Km range, i think it can cover whole PAK from borders..[/QUOTE]

i dont know wether to laugh or cry at your knowledge of Pakistan's topography..

Regards.

 

[amarnath]

Forget it guys, the only thing which can give a head ache for the MKI is Rafael and The F-22 Raptor, Others are of no match...

 

[Kinshuk]

Forget it guys, the only thing which can give a head ache for the MKI is Rafael and The F-22 Raptor, Others are of no match...

How?

Thanks

 

[sancho]

A humble request to everybody, this thread is about PAFs F16 block 52 vs IAF Su 30 MKI and their capabilities, so please don't put other things like SAMs, BVR missiles, or techs theses versions don't have into the comparison!

Comparing a Multi role fighter with a heavy air superiority fighter jet simply just does not make any sense to me.

This is not correct! The Su 27 was an air superiority fighter, the Su 30 MK instead was an improved multi role version of it. That's why IAF gone for the MKI and PLAAF for example for the MKK instead of more Su 27 that they already had.
I agree both are in different weight classes, but the F16b52 at the moment is PAFs high end, multi role fighter, just as the MKI is IAFs high end, multi role fighter, so a comparison does makes sens.

The AN/APG-68 radar is a long range up to 300 km

This range is for detecting targets at sea level, not air targets. The Bars is said to detect and track fighter size targets at around 200 Km range.
I can't provide u "reliable" numbers for APG 68, but maybe this helps in comparison.
Israel also has the F16b52 (Sufa) and evaluated the fighter and its techs before the induction. During the evaluation they found out that the APG 68v9 is inferior to their own EL/M 2032 and they rejected the US radar first. The problem was, that the Americans didn't allow the to customise the fighter with the Israeli radar (same problem they have with F35 customising now).
As you can see in the official brochure of IAI, the 2032 offers this performance:

Air-to-Air detection and tracking range up to 80 NM.
Air-to-Sea detection, tracking and classification up
to 160 NM.
Air-to-Ground mapping, High Resolution Mapping
and surface target detection up to 80 NM.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/FILES/6/27546.pdf

80 NM ~ 148 Km
160 NM ~ 296 Km

So the APG 68v9 will have less, or comparable range to detect a2a targets which is at least 50 Km less than the MKI.

As I stated before, the question is when will the MKI detect a fighter with such a small RCS and will the F16 detect MKI at max range?

Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.

I agree that the weapon and JHMCS is a good combination, but the electronics, especially the EWS in MKI is better! US techs for exports are not as good as US techs for USAF, the MKI instead uses thes same EWS like the Israeli F15s and these are said to be superior to the original USAF F15 EWS.
So it will be canards, TVC, better t/w ratio and better EWS vs Aim 9 and JHMCS.

 

[Kompromat]

[/B]QUOTE=Robo;636204]180 KM is lot , but what about you, why u wasted your money on AWACS, If india deployed smiler missile in Indian borders where your AWACS planes will fly ?? in Afghanistan?? becasue in 200 KM whole Pak airspace will be covered? what a waste of money.
first of all thread is about jets and SAM systems are secondary but anyway our saab 2000 and kj2000 are for defensive use not for peeping into india so they will operate on a safe or cleared areas and SAAB comes with an excelent EW suite.

It all about measures and counter measures,
yes and in our borders spada 2000 would be deployed.

the Brazilian Anti Radiation missile is Max Range is 25KM, it means your plane has to penetrate envelop of long SAM and Medium SAM and then Short Range SAM...... Oh man

its actual range is classified so cant afford telling you.
We have a backup in the shape of H4 BVRB

c) India also has land based Super Sonic Cruze

I know.. Thanks

missile with 300 Km range, i think it can cover whole PAK from borders..[/QUOTE]

i dont know wether to laugh or cry at your knowledge of Pakistan's topography..

Regards.

 

[Peshwa]

Sir you did not get my point , or may be my opinion was not clear beg you a pardon.

Phalcon is believed to have a detection range of 400km , and to have all of that range where would they be operating? Its common sense that they would be operating with in 400 km from Pakistan Indian border inside Indian air space am i right?

Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?
Now look at this.

"There has been speculation that Pakistan acquired an HQ-9 variant called the FT-2000 some years ago as a short-term countermeasure against India’s airborne early warning and control aircraft, but no such missile has been seen in the country, and some sources say the FT-2000 was never actually produced"
Link:ASIAN DEFENCE: Pakistan May Seek Chinese Interceptor Missile Defense by 2012

Regards:

Hi Blackblood,

You make a good point as far as the bolded portion is concerned....but there is a major flaw that I see with the statement as well.....

One does not deploy an SAM system on the border areas for our mortars and artillery to take out before they can become operational....The primary role of an SAM is to protect important assets such as major cities, economic centres, air bases and strategic assets.....It would be rather a waste for an army to man these SAM on the Indo Pak border which is huge....Do you realize how many FT-2000 batteries Pakistan will need to fill in all the gaps in the border?........Besides....an SAM is not like a fence that it can just be put up anywhere without any resources etc to protect it.....
In theory what you're saying maybe right, but the practical use of these the way you mention it is impossible.....
Just to clarify, the reason why IAF and PAF are able to make incursions into enemy territory is because of this.....else why do we even need an airforce....if your posture is purely defensive...just buy millions of SAM batteries and man them across the border.....(A bit far fetched but just to give you an idea)

India and Pakistan arent stupid to invest billions into expensive AWACS such as Phalcon and Eriye respectively.....Dont you think?

PS: Dont forget that an SAM is useless without a radar....If the Radar is targeted using special forces which can easily make incursions into border areas with ease....these expensive systems become sitting ducks.....Just my 2 cents (Also my assumption)

Anyways.....all this is offtopic and as Sancho mentioned....Lets stick to the discussion after you get the last word in....

Regards

 

[amarnath]

How?

Thanks

SUKHOI 30MKI

Maximum speed: Mach 2.34 (2490 km/h) at 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
Range: 5,000 km (2,700 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level)(With Internal Fuel Tank)
Endurance: 4.5 hrs (upto 10 hrs with in-flight refueling)
Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Rate of climb: >300 m/s (70,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 401 kg/m² (98 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.07 at loaded weight & 1.15 with 50% fuel
AESA radar
thrust vectoring, 131 kN (27,557 lbf) each
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,895 lb)
Can do Pugachev's Cobra air combat maneuvering

Now tell Me is there any Fighter aircraft other than F-22 and Rafael which can beat this stuff?

MKI is superior to every other fighter planes

 

[fatman17]

18 F-16s v. potentially 230 SUs !!!

come on yar!

 

[Trisonics]

Please leave pilots out of this discussion. If you need to include them, start by talking about how much experience PAF has with BVR, Data Links, AWACS.. Since that is what is being discussed.

I was always confused about IAF wanting two pilots in the cockpit, just go through this page again and it becomes increasingly clear.

 

[Iggy]

18 F-16s v. potentially 230 SUs !!!

come on yar!

No sir we are just talking about 1:1 scenario..its good reading both sides..its not a likely scenario but still nice to see having a good discussion

 

[Veer]

@Blackblood

I am not qualified to answer on most of the other aspects discussed in this thread, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I did find the following a bit strange-

Now if we deploy F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B ( Its a new system ) on our border with India what does it means is for 200kms Phaclon cant fly and it would have to fly 200km away from FT-2000 range which means its all 400km detection range is of no use and it can not look into Pakistan or if it can that would be limited to the border areas which would not help , Got my point?

So you are saying the F-T 2000(ARM) or F-T 2000/B have a range of 200km. Am I right?
So if they are at the border and the Phalcon has to avoid it and assuming it keeps a distance of 20-30 km out of the missiles range. Wouldnt it still cover an area of 170-180 kms inside Pakistan? That would mean major cities and bases in Sialkot, Islamabad and Rawalpindi besides Lahore which is the closest. That's still not so bad, is it? In all probability by India's aims, the battle wouldn't probably extend beyond these cities.

Brother, i think one go through the following

Amritsar (Punjab,India) and Lahore (Punjab,Pakistan) is : 50.3 kilometers (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and Islamabad (Islamabad,Pakistan) is : 170.62 kilometers (km).

Amritsar (Punjab,India) and Faisalabad (Punjab,Pakistan) is : 170.62 kilometers (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and Rawalpindi Cantonment is :172.38 kilometers (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and Sialkot (Punjab,Pakistan) is :178.24 kilometers

Ganganagar (Rajasthan,India) and Bahawalpur (Punjab,Pakistan) is :
236.52 kilometers (km).

Srinagar (Jammu and Kashmir,India) and Peshawar is :
298.92 kilometers (km).

Bhuj (Gujarat,India) and Karachi (Sindh,Pakistan) is : 319.71 kilometers (km)

If one go throuh above you will find that these are the cream of Pakistan (Their major cities, most develop areas and strategically imp.) and they are well within the stone throw distance from Indian border.

The above distances becomes lesser if we calculate the distance from our border.

And After reading this a thought came to my mind we can easily suppress the enemy defense, troops formation, armory etc. using ER long range MBRLs. Like BM-30 "Smerch" and Pinaka. I know these two can not cover whole of above cities. For it, we are building some long range guided MBRLs with Israel which can cover whole of above cities. It will be more cheaper and least risky. Then using Brahmos and Aircraft. BTW, Supersonic Brahmos can reach all of these cities easily and the under development Hypersonic can neutralize any defense and penetrate to give desired results.

After fireworks we can move ahead quite safely in the air/land.

 

[junaid1]

good analysis.......................

 

[junaid1]

it would be much better if money is spent on poor people of pakistan-india istead of buying such expensive products

 

[junaid1]

Each military product that india-pakistan buy ,lets our people to sleep without Bread . i think such extravagance are not justified.some of our people clap when they hear ,india got this new weapon & pakistan got this in response to india ..............takes away a piece of bread out of poor people's mouth. think..............