Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

[Chanakyaa]

Pilots have flown , F-16's , most of the Sukhoi's , Mig-29's , SU-27's , F-15's , F-16E , and possibly by now EF-2000 too and soon will be Rafale eveluated.

I Think Only F22 and F35 Missed out.


#1. Are PAF Pilots Making World Record to Fly Maximum TYPES of Fighters ?

#2. How Does The Experiance to FLY MORE TYPES of planes help in a WAR Scenario ?

#3. When did PAF get MiG 29 ? And Which Sukhois's ? 27/30/35 ?

Also, As Fatman Pointed out, Your Entire F16 Fleet is Equal to our 2 SQUADRONS of MKI.

Add To it That Its Going to Be JF17 NOT F16 That will be the Backbone of PAF , while MKI is the Main Fighter for IAF.

 

[Storm Force]

The American Pilot in RED FLAG VEDIO 2008 clearly states that the SU30MKI is a tad/marginally superior to USA legacy jets F16 & F15.

i THINK his words count.

SU30MKI is also way below F22

 

[deckingraj]

Also, As Fatman Pointed out, Your Entire F16 Fleet is Equal to our 2 SQUADRONS of MKI.

Some great points however they are more off a reply to an off-topic comment. Here discussion is F16 Block 52 vs MKI...Let me clarify the relevant part...As far as number is concerned you are right but i believe the intent of the thread starter is not to consider numbers i.e how do these machines stand against each other one on one...

 

[DaRk WaVe]

#3. When did PAF get MiG 29 ?

some time back i heard from some one that PAF did got its hand on Ukrainian MiG-29s, but i don't have anything thing concrete to support it

 

[sancho]

Isnt our primary air-superiority fighter the Mig29? In all eventuality, wouldnt the MKI serve as an AWACS role to the MIG29 which would go head to head with an F-16 if ever the situation arose?

I find it hard to grasp if the IAF would pitch an asset like the MKI directly with an F-16...unless in a dire situation when we have platforms like the Bison and MIG-29 that can take on this role and are solely procured for this purpose....

I think their roles are different, the MKI with 2 pilots, much internal fuel and the long range radar, is perfect for patrol missions. As long we don't have full AWACS radar cover, they will guard the skys and will be the main air superiority fighter.

The Mig 29 instead is the main interceptor of IAF, if any AWACS, or ground radar detects an enemy fighter, or only an unidentified aircraft in Indian airspace, it's mainly the Mig 29 that will send for interception. I think I read in a thread here, that they have a better reaction time then the MKIs (maybe someone can confirm that), so for fast interception they should be preferable.

The Bisons wouldn't stand the F16 in a 1 on 1, their only advantage is the BVR capability in combination with low RCS and data links from MKI, or AWACS.
If they get the informations from more capable radars, they will be able to be undetected for some time and get closer to the enemy, before firing the BVR missiles.

However, the discussion is about one F16b52 vs one MKI and what could happen when they engage eachother.

 

[Kompromat]

some time back i heard from some one that PAF did got its hand on Ukrainian MiG-29s, but i don't have anything thing concrete to support it

Stop shocking them

 

[Kompromat]

I Think Only F22 and F35 Missed out.

Normal rubbish??

#1. Are PAF Pilots Making World Record to Fly Maximum TYPES of Fighters ?[/B]

Maybe they are or they have .

#2. How Does The Experiance to FLY MORE TYPES of planes help in a WAR Scenario ?

Platform knowledge my friend , if you are an F-16 pilot and you are flying against SU-27 that you already have flown , you would know what it can or can't do and what you should or shouldn't do how to protect yourself and use Counter measures.

#3. When did PAF get MiG 29 ? And Which Sukhois's ? 27/30/35 ?

MIG-29 was brought to Pakistan for evaluation from a friendly country.
Older Sukhoi's of Syrian , Jordanian , Iraqi Air forces.
J-11, J-11B and SU-30 MKK of PLAAF

Also, As Fatman Pointed out, Your Entire F16 Fleet is Equal to our 2 SQUADRONS of MKI.

Provide me link and even if he has said that then i can understand why he said so

Add To it That Its Going to Be JF17 NOT F16 That will be the Backbone of PAF , while MKI is the Main Fighter for IAF.

JF-17 is a lightweight multi role fighter it can not compete with MKI but wait for its later blocks II and III which would be tailored specially to give Treatment to MKI.

If Chinese AESA came in handy then the job is done or either we will go for Vixen-1000E AESA.

By that time there would be new Chinese BVRM's and also MBDA metedor BVRAAM

 

[Kompromat]

The American Pilot in RED FLAG VEDIO 2008 clearly states that the SU30MKI is a tad/marginally superior to USA legacy jets F16 & F15.

i THINK his words count.

SU30MKI is also way below F22

Thanks for your very useful and deep analysis .

I am sure this one is going to prove you wrong and gona hurt you a lot

An unnamed US Air Force officer, who is obviously a Nellis F-15 pilot, lectures an audience with incredible details about the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag 2008.

Both videos were posted yesterday on YouTube by an anonymous contributor, who identifies himself only as an Australian (God bless 'em!).

If you have any interest in tactical aircraft at all, you must watch these two videos. Learn details about the Cope India fiasco, problems with Russian fighter jet engines, how the F-15 can defeat the Su-30MKI's vectored thrust, and why the Indians apparently won't be asking for more 1 v 1 dogfights with the USAF.


The cliff notes version? Jamming between aircraft nullified the radar missiles and allowed the aircraft to come into the merge. The Indians tried to use their post stall maneuvering (i.e. "air show tricks") early and often. The US pilots had learned to counter such moves through mock ACM with the F-22. They used the tactics they had developed to easily move in behind the Flankers when they started "sinking" and to quote the pilot, "drilled their brains out with guns". http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif

We also learn what most of us already know through Colonel Fornof's lectures: The Su-30, though able to perform similar maneuvers during air shows, isn't anywhere close to being in the same league as the F-22 in reality.

He does go on to state that once the Indians truly learn how to "fight" their Flankers, then they should start winning more than they lose against standard F-15C and F-16C models. But the Su-30 doesn't even begin to approach the Raptor. And it also sounds like he is hinting that upgraded Eagles with AESA radar may also prove superior. Obviously, in a close-in dogfight, the F-15 in it's current state is more than capable of fighting against the Su-30 and winning as long as it is being operated by quality crews.

At any rate, I just found those videos interesting when I watched them last night. I figured I might as well post them up this morning for anyone who may not have seen these. Pretty interesting insight from someone "in the know". While good, obviously the Su-30 isn't quite the invincible machine many people have tried to make it out to be in recent years. In fact, it appears it only achieves parity at best with a design 20 years older than it is! The F-15
USAF pilot describes IAF Su-30MKI performance at Red Flag-08 - The DEW Line

Good try to hide the truth anyway

 

[Windjammer]

People, The F-104 and the MIG-21 both flew in the early 50s and although both the PAF and IAF had these aircraft in their inventory in 1965, it wasn't until 1971 that they faced each other. However,then again India used the MIG-21 as top cover after the failure of the SU-7s.
Any future conflict may as well bring the subject aircraft into confrontation, and since the guy in the cockpit is in the ultimate position to judge the capabilities of their machines, suffice to disclose the comments of IAF SU-30 Leader then a Wing Commander W********* who was in UK to attend JSCC, that if he ever went into battle, he would prefer his old stead, the Mirage-2000. since he wasn't too comfortable with the Russian fighter.

 

[Kompromat]

Forget it guys, the only thing which can give a head ache for the MKI is Rafael and The F-22 Raptor, Others are of no match...

Analysis of the Day!!!

 

[Peshwa]

Platform knowledge my friend , if you are an F-16 pilot and you are flying against SU-27 that you already have flown , you would know what it can or can't do and what you should or shouldn't do how to protect yourself and use Counter measures.

If there was a combat excercise where multiple SU-27 platforms went head to head against a PAF F-16, I can see how it could be beneficial for knowledge about manouvers, tactics etc etc....But flying one aircraft wont do the PAF much good......
Is it also safe to assume that since Israel and the US both have better versions of the F-16 than Pakistan and IAF trains with the US and "may" have flown the IsraelI F-16s that we can counter whatever the PAF has to offer?

Besides.....There is a world of difference between a low tech Syrian version of SU-27 and the MKI which is top of the line custom designed version for India only.....

Its like saying that the Enzo drives like a Modena since both are made by Ferrari.....

MIG-29 was brought to Pakistan for evaluation from a friendly country.
Older Sukhoi's of Syrian , Jordanian , Iraqi Air forces.
J-11, J-11B and SU-30 MKK of PLAAF

Well havent really heard of these excercises....But we will take your word for it....

If you have any details or links to present for the same would be much appreciated....

Provide me link and even if he has said that then i can understand why he said so

Just to clarify.....I think Mr.Fatman was speaking purely about the numbers game....
Since the version of F-16 Block 52 that Pakistan will be receiving will be small in numbers....Is it really fair to make a comparison when IAF will be fielding 230 odd number of these....
Head to head on a numbers basis.....even the technological superiority of the F-16 D if true will be negated by the numerical superiority of the MKI....

Thanks
Peshwa

 

[Kompromat]

Hi Blackblood,

You make a good point as far as the bolded portion is concerned....but there is a major flaw that I see with the statement as well.....

Thanks for appreciation

One does not deploy an SAM system on the border areas for our mortars and artillery to take out before they can become operational....The primary role of an SAM is to protect important assets such as major cities, economic centres, air bases and strategic assets.....It would be rather a waste for an army to man these SAM on the Indo Pak border which is huge....Do you realize how many FT-2000 batteries Pakistan will need to fill in all the gaps in the border?........Besides....an SAM is not like a fence that it can just be put up anywhere without any resources etc to protect it.....
In theory what you're saying maybe right, but the practical use of these the way you mention it is impossible.....

To destroy them by artillery you would need to spot them which is a pain in the neck.

Camouflage , Location , counter measures are something that we call professional military knowledge and we have people who can make their way out for deployment of FT-2k.

The Aim is to keep the Phalcon restricted as much as we can .
BTW i am hearing about a new System with a range of 400km+ from a friendly nation if it turned out to be true then that is going to create a lot of Fun

I agree with your rest of the statement but please lets stick to this role for now because it may go a bit off topic.

Just to clarify, the reason why IAF and PAF are able to make incursions into enemy territory is because of this.....else why do we even need an airforce....if your posture is purely defensive...just buy millions of SAM batteries and man them across the border.....(A bit far fetched but just to give you an idea)

No Air force is eminent SAMs are a scaring weapon but Air force can do what SAM's can't you know that.

India and Pakistan arent stupid to invest billions into expensive AWACS such as Phalcon and Eriye respectively.....Dont you think?

Well from a PAF perspective we needed it so did you.

Dont forget that an SAM is useless without a radar....If the Radar is targeted using special forces which can easily make incursions into border areas with ease....these expensive systems become sitting ducks.....Just my 2 cents (Also my assumption)

Anyways.....all this is offtopic and as Sancho mentioned....Lets stick to the discussion after you get the last word in....

Regards

We would not be sending our Commandos for Destroying Radars , but Babur Cruise missile , RAAD ALCM , MAR-1 , or H-4 BVRB would be more than enough to clear them.

Regards:

 

[Chanakyaa]

Platform knowledge my friend , if you are an F-16 pilot and you are flying against SU-27 that you already have flown , you would know what it can or can't do and what you should or shouldn't do how to protect yourself and use Counter measures.

What do u want ur Pilots to be and which one has better success : Jack of all Trades or Master of ONE ?

You are silently getting away from what is the Gretest strength of PAF. Mastering of F16 Platform.

As i said "War Scenario", Your F16 will face MKI which has Hidden Features not revealed even in Excersies.
You Mean to say That Even if They have "seen the MKK **** pit" They are aware of how to Take on an MKI ?

No Way.

MIG-29 was brought to Pakistan for evaluation from a friendly country.

When n where ?

Older Sukhoi's of Syrian , Jordanian , Iraqi Air forces.
J-11, J-11B and SU-30 MKK of PLAAF

MKI employs Tech from Su35 and Su37 ..
Older Sukhois are Lame infront of MKI and You cant understand the Might of a Plane which is Nearly a generation ahead with Heavy Advanced Western Tech as well.

Provide me link and even if he has said that then i can understand why he said so

Just Go a few posts back.

JF-17 is a lightweight multi role fighter it can not compete with MKI but wait for its later blocks II and III which would be tailored specially to give Treatment to MKI.

You Forget That By that Time MMRCA would be in place and SH18/Rafale would be in.
Also, By that Time BLK III of Jf17 arrives, say 2022, India would have 2-5 Squadrons of FGFA ..

JF17 BLK III cannot compete a Gen 5 Fighter. [ JXX wont be ready by 2020 and wont be ready for PAF by 2030 ]

If Chinese AESA came in handy then the job is done or either we will go for Vixen-1000E AESA.

By that time there would be new Chinese BVRM's and also MBDA metedor BVRAAM

Ifs n Buts ??
The Mig 29s are gettng Upgraded Already.
The MKIs are also going to Get AESA, Radar already Done in Russia.

 

[Chanakyaa]

 

[Peshwa]

I think their roles are different, the MKI with 2 pilots, much internal fuel and the long range radar, is perfect for patrol missions. As long we don't have full AWACS radar cover, they will guard the skys and will be the main air superiority fighter.

The Mig 29 instead is the main interceptor of IAF, if any AWACS, or ground radar detects an enemy fighter, or only an unidentified aircraft in Indian airspace, it's mainly the Mig 29 that will send for interception. I think I read in a thread here, that they have a better reaction time then the MKIs (maybe someone can confirm that), so for fast interception they should be preferable.

The Bisons wouldn't stand the F16 in a 1 on 1, their only advantage is the BVR capability in combination with low RCS and data links from MKI, or AWACS.
If they get the informations from more capable radars, they will be able to be undetected for some time and get closer to the enemy, before firing the BVR missiles.

However, the discussion is about one F16b52 vs one MKI and what could happen when they engage eachother.

The Bison though was highly praised by a USAF officer who was impressed with its manouverability and the improvements made post-Bison phase....with the Israeli ELTA upgrades
....I mean it is a 60s platform....(Hopefully it faces the older PAF aircraft if at all)

About the highlighted portion, fully agreed that it will serve as the mainstay for patrol, but with its long range, and heavy payload, I see it being used as a Strategic bomber for Ground attack roles with the MIG-29SMT as close support......especially in light of the fact that the Jaguars are on their way to be phased out in this coming decade...

But I cannot deny that the Alpha Air-Superiority role in IAF goes to the MKI.....whether the need to use these in the role will be empoyed is different(I am speculating).....

I concur with you otherwise.....