Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[CriticalThought]

The equation for us with missiles is that we have few key strategic targets to defend; which sounds nice in writing but as perspective it doesn’t take much to end Pakistan versus India.
How many times will they hit the 22 airfields, army bases and Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar,Karachi and Quetta?
Add to that the very limited window of flight times for our targets and you see our dilemma in actually defending our key points.

However, detection wise we have a better geographical and coverage advantage. The TPS-77 can pick up launches from the east and AEW coverage is ample to pick up launches from the sea(I doubt their usage for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph).

Thank you. Limited targets is exactly my worry as well. Forgetting nuclear attacks for a moment, here is my hypothesis on how a cold start attack may unfold:

1. Saturation strike against forward airbases and air defence sites. Soften up air defence and air attack to allow IAF jets easy access to deeper targets.
2. Use Indian multi-layer air defence to soften the impact of any retaliatory strikes.
3. Use the confusion and chaos from 1 to strike and neutralize as many of the following as follows:
a. Breeder reactors.
b. Nuclear laboratories and facilities.
c. PAC Kamra.
d. POF.
e. HIT.
f. Other targets that form the backbone of military and strategic production.

IF this comes to pass, we will be set back by multiple decades. And rebuilding would not be possible because now they will be able to attack with impunity. Essentially, it would be game over.

There is one way to assure a guaranteed retaliatory response. Arm Black Storks with small tactical devices and station them throughout India. If any Black Swan event happens, their orders should be to strike immediately and without mercy.

What this does to nuclear threshold, nuclear safety, peace and stability, anyone can see.

The other option is to ensure saturation strikes cannot succeed. HQ-9 is the first piece of that puzzle, followed by S-400 if possible. But the only sustainable way is to create an indigenous air defence infrastructure. And when I say indigenous, I mean having semiconductor fabrication facilities that allow us to print our own GaN circuits.

I have always been amazed that a country that has a veritable menagerie of ballistic and cruise missiles has been unable to produce AAMs, and SAMs? It defies logic, seriously.

 

[SQ8]

Thank you. Limited targets is exactly my worry as well. Forgetting nuclear attacks for a moment, here is my hypothesis on how a cold start attack may unfold:

1. Saturation strike against forward airbases and air defence sites. Soften up air defence and air attack to allow IAF jets easy access to deeper targets.
2. Use Indian multi-layer air defence to soften the impact of any retaliatory strikes.
3. Use the confusion and chaos from 1 to strike and neutralize as many of the following as follows:
a. Breeder reactors.
b. Nuclear laboratories and facilities.
c. PAC Kamra.
d. POF.
e. HIT.
f. Other targets that form the backbone of military and strategic production.

IF this comes to pass, we will be set back by multiple decades. And rebuilding would not be possible because now they will be able to attack with impunity. Essentially, it would be game over.

There is one way to assure a guaranteed retaliatory response. Arm Black Storks with small tactical devices and station them throughout India. If any Black Swan event happens, their orders should be to strike immediately and without mercy.

What this does to nuclear threshold, nuclear safety, peace and stability, anyone can see.

The other option is to ensure saturation strikes cannot succeed. HQ-9 is the first piece of that puzzle, followed by S-400 if possible. But the only sustainable way is to create an indigenous air defence infrastructure. And when I say indigenous, I mean having semiconductor fabrication facilities that allow us to print our own GaN circuits.

I have always been amazed that a country that has a veritable menagerie of ballistic and cruise missiles has been unable to produce AAMs, and SAMs? It defies logic, seriously.

A ballistic missile has a different trajectory versus an A2A system. More importantly, the guidance for A2A and SAM systems is entirely different and requires the prerequisite availability of seeker systems. Oddly, Semi-Active systems such as the R-530 were available for study but were ignored for development entirely.
The PAF did not have one lost decade but several periods of leadership apathy which was depending upon foriegn procurement whenever it was available. A local IR SAM was abandoned since it was built with both low expertise and low budget ; unlike the Israelis the PAF did not capitalize on willing SA personell after the end of the apartheid as efficiently otherwise we had people willing to build us a complete fighter for the right money or at least inculcate the knowhow @denel can elaborate more on this.

 

[CriticalThought]

A ballistic missile has a different trajectory versus an A2A system. More importantly, the guidance for A2A and SAM systems is entirely different and requires the prerequisite availability of seeker systems. Oddly, Semi-Active systems such as the R-530 were available for study but were ignored for development entirely.
The PAF did not have one lost decade but several periods of leadership apathy which was depending upon foriegn procurement whenever it was available. A local IR SAM was abandoned since it was built with both low expertise and low budget ; unlike the Israelis the PAF did not capitalize on willing SA personell after the end of the apartheid as efficiently otherwise we had people willing to build us a complete fighter for the right money or at least inculcate the knowhow @denel can elaborate more on this.

Although ballistic missiles exhibit a different flight profile, what we are seeing in modern systems is convergence. One single system combines many different aspects into a centralized command and control. The actual missiles used for counter-attack may be different, but controlled from the single core. It will take us time to cover all aspects of air defence, but a start needs to be made.

What is lost, is lost already. We need to think about the future, the emerging threats we face, and how best to give a response. Another 'option' is to seek depth in Afghanistan. I have always been opposed to the fence. Instead of building the fence, we should have given an ultimatum to Afghanistan that terrorism comes from their territory, and we will fix it for them if they don't. If any attacks happen against our forward posts, we should simply annex that adjoining territory and immediately consolidate by providing facilities to locals. The Afghan refugees can also be settled in these areas. What Afghans are looking for is respect and an end to the indignity they face today. If we as Muslims can restore their pride, we will have strong allies.

Yet another way is to seek a foreign base in Maldives, Myanmar and Malaysia. This increases the cost of defence for the enemy. Today, India need only secure its Western borders. Now increase the threat range such that it compels India to provide a 360 degree multi-layer air defence. Suddenly, the cost balloons, the operation becomes complex, the opportunities for making mistakes increase.

Finally, there is the SSBN option. India MUST be under threat of strikes originating from the depths of the five oceans. All other options set aside, this option is one that has actually been considered. We have the statement of a parliamentarian saying we should look into acquiring an SSBN.

Thankfully, we see the foreign office busy in calling world attention to the issue. Hopefully, they are shaping up opinion, and preparing the world to take our strategic programmes to the next level. I propose that we should rub the gravity of the situation into the faces of European Union, and Israel. Our strategic restraint is no longer tenable because our security requires an ability to launch ICBM from anywhere in the oceans. Unless such pressure is applied, the world will turn a blind eye to Indian arms accumulation.

 

[SQ8]

Although ballistic missiles exhibit a different flight profile, what we are seeing in modern systems is convergence. One single system combines many different aspects into a centralized command and control. The actual missiles used for counter-attack may be different, but controlled from the single core. It will take us time to cover all aspects of air defence, but a start needs to be made.

What is lost, is lost already. We need to think about the future, the emerging threats we face, and how best to give a response. Another 'option' is to seek depth in Afghanistan. I have always been opposed to the fence. Instead of building the fence, we should have given an ultimatum to Afghanistan that terrorism comes from their territory, and we will fix it for them if they don't. If any attacks happen against our forward posts, we should simply annex that adjoining territory and immediately consolidate by providing facilities to locals. The Afghan refugees can also be settled in these areas. What Afghans are looking for is respect and an end to the indignity they face today. If we as Muslims can restore their pride, we will have strong allies.

Yet another way is to seek a foreign base in Maldives, Myanmar and Malaysia. This increases the cost of defence for the enemy. Today, India need only secure its Western borders. Now increase the threat range such that it compels India to provide a 360 degree multi-layer air defence. Suddenly, the cost balloons, the operation becomes complex, the opportunities for making mistakes increase.

Finally, there is the SSBN option. India MUST be under threat of strikes originating from the depths of the five oceans. All other options set aside, this option is one that has actually been considered. We have the statement of a parliamentarian saying we should look into acquiring an SSBN.

Thankfully, we see the foreign office busy in calling world attention to the issue. Hopefully, they are shaping up opinion, and preparing the world to take our strategic programmes to the next level. I propose that we should rub the gravity of the situation into the faces of European Union, and Israel. Our strategic restraint is no longer tenable because our security requires an ability to launch ICBM from anywhere in the oceans. Unless such pressure is applied, the world will turn a blind eye to Indian arms accumulation.

We can continue this elsewhere as now we are derailing the thread.

To bring it back to the topic, our AEW coverage is sufficient(rather excessive) for monitoring perceived threats including ballistic and cruise systems.
What is lacking is interception capability which is coming from one local and one imported source.

 

[randomradio]

1. Saturation strike against forward airbases and air defence sites. Soften up air defence and air attack to allow IAF jets easy access to deeper targets.
2. Use Indian multi-layer air defence to soften the impact of any retaliatory strikes.
3. Use the confusion and chaos from 1 to strike and neutralize as many of the following as follows:
a. Breeder reactors.
b. Nuclear laboratories and facilities.
c. PAC Kamra.
d. POF.
e. HIT.
f. Other targets that form the backbone of military and strategic production.

"Cold Start" is not meant for anything you said. And any air action is intended to degrade Pakistan's military capabilities within the influence of the IBGs, basically ensure air superiority over our own troops. The idea is to humiliate Pakistan, not destroy it. We will take some territory and then call for a ceasefire, thereby bringing you to the negotiating table on our terms. And the escalation ball will be thrown in your court.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

A ballistic missile has a different trajectory versus an A2A system. More importantly, the guidance for A2A and SAM systems is entirely different and requires the prerequisite availability of seeker systems. Oddly, Semi-Active systems such as the R-530 were available for study but were ignored for development entirely.
The PAF did not have one lost decade but several periods of leadership apathy which was depending upon foriegn procurement whenever it was available. A local IR SAM was abandoned since it was built with both low expertise and low budget ; unlike the Israelis the PAF did not capitalize on willing SA personell after the end of the apartheid as efficiently otherwise we had people willing to build us a complete fighter for the right money or at least inculcate the knowhow @denel can elaborate more on this.

It seems the aloofness on our end is still there, though the creation of AvRID and AvDI might finally offer at least a little space for initiative, but it too would be for naught if they don't properly open it up to contrarian thinkers. But yes, in the 1990s there were a bunch of folks around from the defunct Novi Avion (Yugoslavia), Denel Carver (South Africa) and IAR 95 (Romania) we could've taken-up for fighter development.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The equation for us with missiles is that we have few key strategic targets to defend; which sounds nice in writing but as perspective it doesn’t take much to end Pakistan versus India.
How many times will they hit the 22 airfields, army bases and Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar,Karachi and Quetta?
Add to that the very limited window of flight times for our targets and you see our dilemma in actually defending our key points.

However, detection wise we have a better geographical and coverage advantage. The TPS-77 can pick up launches from the east and AEW coverage is ample to pick up launches from the sea(I doubt their usage for the reasons outlined in the first paragraph).

In addition to early detection of launches and acquiring/deploying SAM batteries...the whole conventional way of defending key targets
...shouldn't Pak also build secret fortified underground facilities? Not the cities and runways of course but where applicable.

I remember watching a documentary about how Switzerland has many such underground fortified bunkers, storage facilities, etc...which would make it really difficult for any advancing forces to take or hold on to its territory. Vietcong also used underground tunnels to house and transport troops, communications and supplies, etc...this proved to be a key advantage for them.

 

[Dazzler]

KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye, a glimpse into the new zdk-03 AESA radar

 

[LKJ86]

KLC-7 - Silk Road Eye, a glimpse into the new zdk-03 AESA radar

View attachment 515135

https://m.weibo.cn/5944220394/4303479570659000

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

Yiu can start a war on your terms---but you only stop at the enemy's terms---.

That is what the egyptians learnt during the Ramzan war---.

"Cold Start" will throw the escalation ball in Pakistan's court. It's up to Pakistan what happens next. There will still be some time between the start of "Cold Start" and the Indian Strike Corps moving into position after all. If Pakistan wants to prolong the war after "Cold Start" operations are done with, then India will obviously be glad to oblige.

Once the Strike Corps start moving, it will be a you or us war.

 

[ziaulislam]

"Cold Start" will throw the escalation ball in Pakistan's court. It's up to Pakistan what happens next. There will still be some time between the start of "Cold Start" and the Indian Strike Corps moving into position after all. If Pakistan wants to prolong the war after "Cold Start" operations are done with, then India will obviously be glad to oblige.

Once the Strike Corps start moving, it will be a you or us war.

Its simple , we will blow a nuke in our land, if hypothetical india has enough air power, mobility , numbers to enforce a cold start which means like an Afghanistan - america scenario ...lol

Now if india want to nuke our cities in return for military use for low tactical weapons than you are welcome, we will be happy to oblige with same
response..obviously we will run out of cities first so we will go for MAD..

 

[randomradio]

Its simple , we will blow a nuke in our land, if hypothetical india has enough air power, mobility , numbers to enforce a cold start which means like an Afghanistan - america scenario ...lol

Now if india want to nuke our cities in return for military use for low tactical weapons than you are welcome, we will be happy to oblige with same
response..obviously we will run out of cities first so we will go for MAD..

I have found that nobody in Pakistan actually understands the concept of MAD.

When it came to Americans and Russians, MAD implied the destruction of all urban settlements with populations above 5000 people. Do you know how many urban settlements of this size are actually present in India?

No, destroying Delhi or Mumbai or the other metro cities does not constitute MAD. Those cities will just get rebuilt again.

Anyway, this has all gone off topic. So that's the end of my 2 paisa here.

 

[Awan68]

I have found that nobody in Pakistan actually understands the concept of MAD.

When it came to Americans and Russians, MAD implied the destruction of all urban settlements with populations above 5000 people. Do you know how many urban settlements of this size are actually present in India?

No, destroying Delhi or Mumbai or the other metro cities does not constitute MAD. Those cities will just get rebuilt again.

Anyway, this has all gone off topic. So that's the end of my 2 paisa here.

Ur opinion is not worth 2 paisas.

 

[ziaulislam]

I have found that nobody in Pakistan actually understands the concept of MAD.

When it came to Americans and Russians, MAD implied the destruction of all urban settlements with populations above 5000 people. Do you know how many urban settlements of this size are actually present in India?

No, destroying Delhi or Mumbai or the other metro cities does not constitute MAD. Those cities will just get rebuilt again.

Anyway, this has all gone off topic. So that's the end of my 2 paisa here.

We do it simply means extinction of life in subcontinent ...throwing arpund 140 nukes each have capcity 100 times more than one dropped on japan..try building dehli after you get 150+ nukes up..

 

[SQ8]

We do it simply means extinction of life in subcontinent ...throwing arpund 140 nukes each have capcity 100 times more than one dropped on japan..try building dehli after you get 150+ nukes up..

Hopefully one lands on the member and their family, and then he can
"rebuild".