Pakistani Military Still Cultivates Militant Groups - More US Propaganda

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Mate, the cultivation of these fighters in not for manpower needs. Its for deniability.

Deniability of what?

The claim is that they are being retained for some future conflict with India, but in case of an open conflict, there is no point to deniability.

If the argument is that they are being retained for 'insurgent activity in IaK', then that too makes no sense since the PA and ISI have steadfastly stuck to the policy initiated under Musharraf of controlling the insurgent movement across the LoC and assisting in ending the insurgency in IaK.

This allows Pakistan to try and hide its involvement if things go south. The same strategy was used in the 1948 attack on Kashmir, in 1965, in Kargil and in Kashmir insurgency. So really the logic that Pakistan is fighting terrorists on its soil, in no way, disproves the theory that Pakistan is/was cultivating similar terrorists as a fighting force against india

Yet Indians themselves argue that most of the fighters in kargil were PA regulars and/or NLI paramilitaries. So obviously Kargil, per Indian assessments, was not really an example of this 'strategy you speak of', not to mention my earlier point about the shift in Pakistan's approach since 2001, which is easily substantiated by facts on the ground - the ceasefire across the LoC continues to largely stay in place with minor incidents. Cross-LoC insurgent movement continues to remain at historical lows, and insurgent activity in IaK has dropped dramatically. Pakistan did not take any advantage of the civil unrest against India during the multiple protests in IaK over the last two years either.

I am afraid there is very little to support this hypothesis of yours and the claims of this alleged 'militant leader'.

 

[Solomon2]

I don't really care who 'the US Establishment things speaks for Pakistan' - the point is simply that the US Establishment and its favorite media propaganda machines are conducting a smear -

Quit that! Pakistan's ambassador flat-out told the CIA chief, Leon Panetta, that the ISI couldn't be trusted, a fact the ISI chief recounted in great bitterness to Parliament back in May. If a "smear campaign" against the PA/ISI exists how can you blame the U.S. for originating it? Or even that such a campaign is unjust?

As for the "bald-faced lies" bit - from now on its up to ISI to disprove the accusations against it. (Yes, that is unfair. But right now who is to say that the ISI deserves better?)

 

[Nagraj]

It does not matter what the motivation of the Pakistani military, in fighting the insurgents, is - I was not addressing that nor is that relevant to the current topic.

My point was simply that when even Indian analysts admit that Pakistan has redeployed over a hundred thousand troops and associated equipment to FATA, to fight insurgents, and lost several thousand soldiers in that conflict, then it makes no sense to argue that the PA/ISI is 'secretly retaining' a few thousand 'guerrilla fighters' to use against India in some future war.

If the PA was that concerned about 'man-power' to fight in a future war against India, then 140000 or 20000 guerilla fighters are insignificant from a conventional military standpoint, given the size of the PA itself. Add in the fact that the PA has redeployed 140,000 troops away from the Indian border and LoC, and the argument of the PA/ISI supporting the Taliban as a 'reserve force' makes even less sense.

Why would the PA move away 140,000 of its own well trained soldiers and equipment if it was that concerned about 'maintaining a 14,000 strong guerrilla force' to fight India?

because this 14000 can cross border easily and their action can be leveled as action by non state actors. keeping hands of pakistan clean

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Normally that might be right, but we are talking about the Pakistan that was just caught red-handed harboring Osama Bin Laden in comfort and security after years of denial. Pakistan's credibility is in the toilet, whereas America's 'anonymous sources' scored an unquestioned deed of veracity by taking OBL out.

Pakistan was not caught 'red handed' doing anything along the lines of what you said.

No evidence till now has been provided to support the allegation of Pakistani institutions having any knowledge of OBL's whereabouts, and the fact that the ISI provided critical intelligence that led to the US tracking down OBL, and the fact that the ISI inquired from Arab nations about the nature of increased US intelligence activity in Abbottabad (which would have resulted in OBL being whisked away if the ISI or PA had been sheltering him there) before the US raid, all debunk this ludicrous smear campaign.

I am sorry, but you have offered zilch evidence to support any of your allegations against Pakistans ISI/PA, and as far as toilets go, the US Establishment showed the world how much it loves toilets when it lied in the UN about Iraqi WMD's.

You have one last chance of providing evidence to back up your rants and trolling. I am done giving you chances to spew poison, hate and lies on this forum.

If you are going to level such serious accusations against the PA/ISI, the I expect you to provide credible evidence to support those accusations, and if you cannot, retract them with an apology, and barring that, I see no use for a poster hell bent upon spewing lies and inflammatory conspiracy theories.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

because this 14000 can cross border easily and their action can be leveled as action by non state actors. keeping hands of pakistan clean

How the heck can '14,000 militants' cross the border 'easily'?

Do they all have 'Mr. India' watches?

And according to your own analysts, in Kargil it was PA and NLI men who 'crossed easily', so why do we need these guys, and move away 140,000 of our well trained men?

And what are they waiting for then? Why is infiltration at historic lows since 2001, as is the insurgent activity in IaK? The facts don't support your fanciful ideas.

 

[Solomon2]

I am sorry, but you have offered zilch evidence to support any of your allegations against Pakistans ISI/PA

The key allegation is that Pakistan denied OBL was in a city not a cave and thus didn't bother to direct its agencies to search for him appropriately. If you can point me to even a statement by a high-ranking minister or military official that contradicts that then I will accept I could be in error. (It will also be of use in contesting with the U.N. Secretary-General Pakistan's failure to conform to post-9/11 international law.)

 

[AmberDutt]

Deniability of what?

The claim is that they are being retained for some future conflict with India, but in case of an open conflict, there is no point to deniability.

Oh there surely is.. Conflict may not always be open. And even in an open conflict, there are things that a national army is not supposed to do. Like explode a dirty bomb in a civilian center, or launch a chemical attack in a shopping mall.. Hope you get my drift here..

If the argument is that they are being retained for 'insurgent activity in IaK', then that too makes no sense since the PA and ISI have steadfastly stuck to the policy initiated under Musharraf of controlling the insurgent movement across the LoC and assisting in ending the insurgency in IaK.

Indian planners and strategists do not buy into this and neither do I. Its just that WOT has put the spotlight on Pakistan and it can no longer indulge in terrorist support as it used to prior to 9/11. You are simply trying to glorify a compulsion by making it sound like a voluntary policy. At this time, the lack of Pakistani support to terrorists targeting India is not due to intent, but due to capability issues with in Pakistan.

Yet Indians themselves argue that most of the fighters in kargil were PA regulars and/or NLI paramilitaries. So obviously Kargil, per Indian assessments, was not really an example of this 'strategy you speak of', not to mention my earlier point about the shift in Pakistan's approach since 2001, which is easily substantiated by facts on the ground - the ceasefire across the LoC continues to largely stay in place with minor incidents. Cross-LoC insurgent movement continues to remain at historical lows, and insurgent activity in IaK has dropped dramatically. Pakistan did not take any advantage of the civil unrest against India during the multiple protests in IaK over the last two years either.

Kargil was a mix of insurgents and Pak Army disguised as Insurgents. Again, because Pakistan failed in its attempt to carry thru the masquerade does not mean it didnt try or wont try again. Have already answered your comment on Pakistani intent of support for terrorists targeting India and why Pakistan is not in a position to take advantage of any unrest in Jammu & Kashmir

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Quit that! Pakistan's ambassador flat-out told the CIA chief, Leon Panetta, that the ISI couldn't be trusted, a fact the ISI chief recounted in great bitterness to Parliament back in May.

And I believe that many in the Pakistani media and on this forum had called out the 'Ambassador' for being one of those 'military hating left wing fringe liberal fascists' when he was appointed ambassador, and that criticizm has continued throughout his appointment. If he wasn't such a Zardari loyalist, and Zardari himself not trying to undercut the military to hide his own incompetence, corruption and support in the toilet, Haqqani would not have lasted as Ambassador past the first year, if he had even been appointed as Ambassador to begin with.

If a "smear campaign" against the PA/ISI exists how can you blame the U.S. for originating it? Or even that such a campaign is unjust?

I am blaming both the US Establishment and the Pakistani liberal fascist fringe minority, as well as the Zardari government. I made that clear. However, the Pakistani 'smear campaign' is par for the course in terms of Pakistan's domestic politics - the US has no business getting involved here.

As for the "bald-faced lies" bit - from now on its up to ISI to disprove the accusations against it. (Yes, that is unfair. But right now who is to say that the ISI deserves better?)

The ISI has nothing to prove, not until at least one of these outlandish claims against the ISI is actually proven to be true with credible evidence. As of right now, we have nothing but 'anonymous sources quoting anonymous gossip, rumors and speculation'.

Come up with something better if you want the ISI to 'disprove something'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The key allegation is that Pakistan denied OBL was in a city not a cave and thus didn't bother to direct its agencies to search for him appropriately.

Yes we denied he was in a city, because we did not even believe he was alive. Given that he had dropped off the radar completely, why blame Pakistan for not knowing where he was?

And Pakistan is a country of 180 million, fighting vicious insurgencies, I fully support the government and military in not dedicating more manpower to search for an irrelevant old coot hiding with his wives. OBL posed no imminent threat to anyone. He was a propaganda figure head for AQ, not the brains and certainly not the financial spigot after the US invasion of Afghanistan.

If you can point me to even a statement by a high-ranking minister or military official that contradicts that then I will accept I could be in error. (It will also be of use in contesting with the U.N. Secretary-General Pakistan's failure to conform to post-9/11 international law.)

Contradicts what? Zardari, Haqqani, Gillani, Army, ISPR, ISI have all refuted the allegations against the ISI/PA officially and on the record.

Surely your google skills are not so useless as to not even know that before spewing this rot out.

 

[Solomon2]

The ISI has nothing to prove, not until at least one of these outlandish claims against the ISI is actually proven to be true with credible evidence.

Who to produce the evidence to? That can't be done without revealing the source, and everybody knows that the ISI locks up people they suspect are sources to foreign powers, regardless fo the legality or justice involved. Since the ISI can effectively block any case in Pakistan against it, then we'd have to talk about releasing proof in an international indictment. I imagine that means either a U.N. body like the Hariri Tribunal or a trial in the U.S. under the Alien Tort act or something similar. For a Hariri-like tribunal civilian leaders would have to appeal, and for a tort in the U.S. a victim must be produced. With the S.S. dead it may only be a matter of time.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh there surely is.. Conflict may not always be open. And even in an open conflict, there are things that a national army is not supposed to do. Like explode a dirty bomb in a civilian center, or launch a chemical attack in a shopping mall.. Hope you get my drift here..

No I don't get your drift, since a 'dirty bomb or chemical attack in a civilian center' does not serve any military purpose in terms of favorably ending the conflict, nor will the side at the receiving end, in the case of an open conflict, really care about 'non-state actors', since both sides are in an 'open conflict' in any case.

Theoretically the use of 'non-state actors' is to PREVENT open conflict - they are useless when the two sides are already at war.

Indian planners and strategists do not buy into this and neither do I. Its just that WOT has put the spotlight on Pakistan and it can no longer indulge in terrorist support as it used to prior to 9/11. You are simply trying to glorify a compulsion by making it sound like a voluntary policy. At this time, the lack of Pakistani support to terrorists targeting India is not due to intent, but due to capability issues with in Pakistan.

Whether you or your analysts buy it or not does not change the fact that the IA itself has stated that infiltration and insurgent activity in IaK has been at historic lows starting from 2001. Yes, the IA will make the usual noises about 'launch pads', but the numbers on infiltration and insurgent activity by the IA itself, compared to pre-2001, speak for themselves.

Kargil was a mix of insurgents and Pak Army disguised as Insurgents. Again, because Pakistan failed in its attempt to carry thru the masquerade does not mean it didnt try or wont try again. Have already answered your comment on Pakistani intent of support for terrorists targeting India and why Pakistan is not in a position to take advantage of any unrest in Jammu & Kashmir

The fact that regular PA and NLI were used means there is no overriding need for '14,000 guerrillas'. You have debunked your own argument here. If the whole point of 'guerrillas' was 'deniability' then the PA would not have used a single regular PA or NLI soldier during Kargil. The fact that it did use regulars means that the deployment of 140,000 regulars away from the Indian border and LoC is a significant loss compared to the alleged '14,000 guerrillas being retained for use against India'.

Your arguments and those of the alleged 'militant leader' make no sense.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Who to produce the evidence to? That can't be done without revealing the source, and everybody knows that the ISI locks up people they suspect are sources to foreign powers, regardless fo the legality or justice involved.

Not my problem. No source, no evidence, then stop ranting since you have no case - just lies and propaganda. And then you lot have the gall to call Pakistanis 'conspiracy theorists and paranoid' when people like you openly strut around making fanciful claims with not an iota of evidence.

Since the ISI can effectively block any case in Pakistan against it, then we'd have to talk about releasing proof in an international indictment. I imagine that means either a U.N. body like the Hariri Tribunal or a trial in the U.S. under the Alien Tort act or something similar. For a Hariri-like tribunal civilian leaders would have to appeal, and for a tort in the U.S. a victim must be produced. With the S.S. dead it may only be a matter of time.

Matter of time? The stop yapping lies and nonsense until you actually get around to it.

Till then, let me repeat, zero evidence has been provided against the ISI to support these allegations - there is nothing but 'anonymous sources claiming to have heard anonymous gossip/rumor/speculation'.

 

[Slides]

Reading the original NYTatto article again, I am amazed at how contradictory and unprofessional the article really is. I can't believe that any professional journalist would put such a horribly written piece out.

From the article:

Militant groups, like Lashkar-e-Taiba, Harakat-ul-Mujahedeen and Hizbul Mujahedeen, are run by religious leaders, with the Pakistani military providing training, strategic planning and protection. That system was still functioning, he said.

Many of the thousands of trained Pakistani fighters turned against the military because it treated them so carelessly, he said. “Pakistan used them and then, like a paper tissue, threw them away,” he said. “Look at me, I am a very well-trained fighter and I have no other option in life, except to fight and take revenge

In other words, Pakistan is running the militant groups AND Pakistan has abandoned the militant groups. What?

Pakistan could easily kill the notoriously vicious militant leader of the Pakistani Taliban, Hakimullah Mehsud, but chose not to, he said. “If someone gave me 20,000 rupees, I would do it,” he said, citing a price of about $235.

Yeah, I'm sure a dedicated jihadist who spent 15 years would say something like this. What's stopped this "important militant commander" from taking $235 from the US, India, Afghanistan, Iran etc. to go kill Hakimullah Mehsud or Zawahiri if the solution is so easy?

“Pakistan, and especially America, needs to understand the true spirit of Islam, and they need to project the true spirit of Islam,” he said. “That would be a good strategy to stop them.”

LOL, this is the quote that sums it up for me. I think what happened here is that the NYTatto got scammed like NATO before by some shopkeeper from Quetta.

 

[Solomon2]

Till then, let me repeat, zero evidence has been provided against the ISI to support these allegations -

There was zero evidence that OBL was in Pakistan until he was actually produced. That doesn't mean the allegations of the U.S., offered without proof - that OBL was in Pakistani - were false. Zero evidence is not zero credibility.

 

[Black Widow]

No Group is militant group till it backfire....