Pakistani Military Still Cultivates Militant Groups - More US Propaganda

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The fact is that Pakistan has in the past retained these groups for its proxy war against India .. I think Musharraf did admit to that somewhere.. But now that the monster has grown bigger than expected, and is now attacking its erstwhile master, Pak has not option but to kill it, since reining it in doesnt seem possible anymore..

Completely irrelevant to the topic and my post that you responded to.

 

[Solomon2]

But now, he said, Pakistan and the United States would be much better able to counter terrorism if they could redirect the legions of militants toward the correct path of Islam to rebuild and educate communities, he said.

This isn't the American approach to terrorism. It is, however, the Saudi approach to terrorism. If it's the Saudis who have a hand in this then it would be logical to shortly expect an initiative by the Saudi King to fund terrorist reeducation programs in Pakistan. The programs running in KSA supposedly have less than a one-third recidivism rate. link1 link2 link3

 

[AmberDutt]

Completely irrelevant to the topic and my post that you responded to.

How come mate?? You are using the actions of Pakistani military of attacking the terrorists as a proof that Pakistani military is not cultivating these groups against India. I am simply rejecting that argument based on the reasoning that while Pakistan is trying to root these groups out, its due to the fact that NOW they are attacking the Pakistani state and have grown much bigger than what Pakistan expected them to become when it did cultivate them.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And the US lies and propaganda against the ISI and PA continue ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/world/asia/05pakistan.html

Note again, claims that are yet again utterly unsubstantiated and unverifiable:

"A third senior American official said there was enough other intelligence and indicators immediately after Mr. Shahzad’s death for the Americans to conclude that the ISI had ordered him killed.

“Every indication is that this was a deliberate, targeted killing that was most likely meant to send shock waves through Pakistan’s journalist community and civil society,” said the official, who like others spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the delicate nature of the information. "

This is basically the US trying to prop up the fringe minority of Pakistani liberal fascists, in the hope that they can perhaps dent support for the military enough to undermine it.

How many of the allegations against the PA and ISI by the US have been substantiated and verified through actual evidence so far?

None that I can think of - a smear campaign and propaganda, and the Zardari Government is more than likely in on it, as are Pakistani papers such as the Tribune Express and some of our left wing liberal fascists forever looking to suck up to the West.

 

[W.11]

Are you seriously being sarcastic or what ?? If being sarcastic, then sorry to say you are failing at that miserably.

Am talking about how US lied to the UN about the Iraqi WMD and attacked it with full might.

Drones are being used on a small area with the consent of the Pakistani military and Pakistani govt approval.

So, if Pakistan is collaborating with the Talibans and in result Americans are being killed and US has so much evidence, then its better to go to the UN and use much more rather then just drones.


Got the point this time ??? Or more sarcasm is on hold ???

hello, mods you and your team must seriously consider cleaning this forum from low level indians, they are so brave now tht they are publicly saying tht they have made another troll id and they are back!!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How come mate?? You are using the actions of Pakistani military of attacking the terrorists as a proof that Pakistani military is not cultivating these groups against India. I am simply rejecting that argument based on the reasoning that while Pakistan is trying to root these groups out, its due to the fact that NOW they are attacking the Pakistani state and have grown much bigger than what Pakistan expected them to become when it did cultivate them.

It does not matter what the motivation of the Pakistani military, in fighting the insurgents, is - I was not addressing that nor is that relevant to the current topic.

My point was simply that when even Indian analysts admit that Pakistan has redeployed over a hundred thousand troops and associated equipment to FATA, to fight insurgents, and lost several thousand soldiers in that conflict, then it makes no sense to argue that the PA/ISI is 'secretly retaining' a few thousand 'guerrilla fighters' to use against India in some future war.

If the PA was that concerned about 'man-power' to fight in a future war against India, then 140000 or 20000 guerilla fighters are insignificant from a conventional military standpoint, given the size of the PA itself. Add in the fact that the PA has redeployed 140,000 troops away from the Indian border and LoC, and the argument of the PA/ISI supporting the Taliban as a 'reserve force' makes even less sense.

Why would the PA move away 140,000 of its own well trained soldiers and equipment if it was that concerned about 'maintaining a 14,000 strong guerrilla force' to fight India?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

hello, mods you and your team must seriously consider cleaning this forum from low level indians, they are so brave now tht they are publicly saying tht they have made another troll id and they are back!!!

They are 'brave' for trolling and creating multiple ID's?

More like apni asli aukat dikha rahay hain.

The poor chaps are obsessed with Pakistan and apparently gluttons for ridicule, bayzati and utterly shameless. They keep coming and we keep banning.

 

[Solomon2]

How many of the allegations against the PA and ISI by the US have been substantiated and verified through actual evidence so far? None that I can think of -

Why would anyone bother anymore to ask the ISI for substantiation and verification of crimes it is accused of committing?

 

[Solomon2]

Rehab projects may work but they will be ineffective as long as the ISI is willing to create and fund more terror groups.

a smear campaign and propaganda, and the Zardari Government is more than likely in on it

Clearly there is a competition between the Army and the civilian leadership for power. Who are we Americans supposed to think speaks for Pakistan, it's ambassador to the United States or somebody wearing a uniform?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why would anyone bother anymore to ask the ISI for substantiation and verification of crimes it is accused of committing?

Stop trolling - the accuser is expected to provide 'evidence, substantiation and verification' of its allegations against the ISI and PA.

If the US can offer nothing better than 'anonymous sources claiming anonymously gathered, unverified, possibly non-existent' intelligence reports (reports mind you, which could also be translated to mean 'gossip, speculation and rumor mongering'), then what we have in these two articles by the bastion of US Establishment propaganda (the NYT) is just more lies, deceit and a smear campaign against the PA and ISI.

 

[AmberDutt]

It does not matter what the motivation of the Pakistani military, in fighting the insurgents, is - I was not addressing that nor is that relevant to the current topic.

My point was simply that when even Indian analysts admit that Pakistan has redeployed over a hundred thousand troops and associated equipment to FATA, to fight insurgents, and lost several thousand soldiers in that conflict, then it makes no sense to argue that the PA/ISI is 'secretly retaining' a few thousand 'guerrilla fighters' to use against India in some future war.

If the PA was that concerned about 'man-power' to fight in a future war against India, then 140000 or 20000 guerilla fighters are insignificant from a conventional military standpoint, given the size of the PA itself. Add in the fact that the PA has redeployed 140,000 troops away from the Indian border and LoC, and the argument of the PA/ISI supporting the Taliban as a 'reserve force' makes even less sense.

Why would the PA move away 140,000 of its own well trained soldiers and equipment if it was that concerned about 'maintaining a 14,000 strong guerrilla force' to fight India?

Mate, the cultivation of these fighters in not for manpower needs. Its for deniability. This allows Pakistan to try and hide its involvement if things go south. The same strategy was used in the 1948 attack on Kashmir, in 1965, in Kargil and in Kashmir insurgency. So really the logic that Pakistan is fighting terrorists on its soil, in no way, disproves the theory that Pakistan is/was cultivating similar terrorists as a fighting force against india

 

[AmberDutt]

They are 'brave' for trolling and creating multiple ID's?

More like apni asli aukat dikha rahay hain.

The poor chaps are obsessed with Pakistan and apparently gluttons for ridicule, bayzati and utterly shameless. They keep coming and we keep banning.

I am sure as an unbiased administrator, you mean this for people of all nationalities that exhibit this trait and not just Indians

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

... as long as the ISI is willing to create and fund more terror groups.

I fail to see any credible evidence supporting the claim above.

Of late the larger attacks, comprising hundreds of insurgents at a time, have been occurring out of Eastern Afghanistan and against Pakistani security forces - terrorists operating in their hundreds in multiple attacks over just a few weeks from territory supposedly controlled by the US/ISAF. That would place the onus of 'supporting and creating terrorist groups' on the US/ISAF and Afghans, not Pakistan.

Clearly there is a competition between the Army and the civilian leadership for power. Who are we Americans supposed to think speaks for Pakistan, it's ambassador to the United States or somebody wearing a uniform?

I don't really care who 'the US Establishment things speaks for Pakistan' - the point is simply that the US Establishment and its favorite media propaganda machines are conducting a smear campaign using bald faced lies against the PA/ISI, ostensibly to try and weaken one of the most popular institutions in Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am sure as an unbiased super moderator, you mean this for people of all nationalities that exhibit this trait and not just Indians

No, I was quite clearly responding to the post I quoted.

Can't exactly blame 'Pakistanis for being obsessed with Pakistan', that would be expected of any patriot.

 

[Solomon2]

If the US can offer nothing better than 'anonymous sources claiming anonymously gathered, unverified, possibly non-existent' intelligence reports (reports mind you, which could also be translated to mean 'gossip, speculation and rumor mongering'), then what we have in these two articles by the bastion of US Establishment propaganda (the NYT) is just more lies, deceit and a smear campaign against the PA and ISI.

Normally that might be right, but we are talking about the Pakistan that was just caught red-handed harboring Osama Bin Laden in comfort and security after years of denial. Pakistan's credibility is in the toilet, whereas America's 'anonymous sources' scored an unquestioned deed of veracity by taking OBL out.