Pakistani Military Still Cultivates Militant Groups - More US Propaganda

[Slides]

I have no intention of maligning Pakistan, and my defense is as solid as western steel.

LOL, thanks for the laugh

 

[Stealth IFV]

Already one bad piece of Western media propaganda has been discounted on this thread. All that remains is empty words and empty threats from certain members about Pakistan. I don't even know why I bother debating this silly topic. You can lead a horse to water...

I'm not here to speak for any government, nor to the gullible. Just basing things in reality. Your country is the one suffering along with Afghanistan, Iraq, and who knows how many countless others for similar reasons. The western world has NO interest in seeing people become deranged and isolated as opposed to cooperative and growth oriented. Hanging on to dying ideas will only result in greater loss for your nation. The ignorant as well as the learned weep.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have no intention of maligning Pakistan, and my defense is as solid as western steel. I have already clarified and signified the deep remorse I feel in the fact that our relations with Pakistan are down because of the suppression of facts. You are choosing to ignore a simple truth about the way the U.S. military has conducted recent operations. Press leaks are not your local herder or fruit salesman based. They sift through thousands of pieces of crap per hour, I can assure you of that, and verifiable facts do not need to be explicitly implied at every corner, at which you rear your debate-inspired defenses to lash out at ignorant souls. Sorry if that bothers you as an Administrator given your priority and rank, but I am not here as someone with interest at stake in Pakistan or Pakistan's image.

I am choosing to ignore nothing.

The facts are simple - Pakistan's government, intelligence and military have strongly and officially denied the allegations being spewed in the Western media as part of a smear campaign against Pakistan.

On the other hand, all we have from the 'accuser', is some journalist quoting 'anonymous sources' quoting 'anonymous intel'. That is the extent of your 'defence as solid as Western Steel'.

Sorry, but you can't seriously expect anyone with even half a brain to accept anonymous media claims over official statements.

If the US does not want to provide evidence, whatever the excuse, then that is her problem. Don't expect people who can actually think for themselves to simply take the word of a nation that blatantly fabricated the case for WMD's in Iraq in front of the entire world.

 

[Stealth IFV]

Why do you continue to equate military and government employees as New York Times journalists? Feel free to use a search engine of your choice to gather what important people are saying, not just lowly paid NYT journalists, and being journalists they shouldn't be hated like they have been in Pakistan, these people are relatively highly paid over here to protect them from bribes, coercion and corruption.

 

[Solomon2]

No - the US deceived Pakistan by not sharing intelligence it developed on OBL's location despite the fact that Pakistan both provided critical intelligence leading to OBL's location -

Pakistan provided, as far as I know, one kernel of information that took some work to be recognized as relevant. Providing it could well have been a slip by somebody.

- as well as allowed US intelligence activities to continue in Abbottabad, despite being aware of them before the OBL raid.

Wouldn't you expect the ISI to lie rather than puncture its carefully crafted image of the ISI being all-aware and all-knowledgeable?

Pakistan has established its credibility through its neutralization of the key AQ leaders and members it has neutralized (more than any other nation)

Suspiciously timed to coincide with upcoming critical visits by U.S. officials, some Pakistanis say. Their implication is that the ISI could do more but chooses not to.

And as for US credibility, we all know how good that is when the US leadership stands in front of the world in the UN and spews lies about Iraqi WMD's. Now you want us to trust yet more outlandish claims by 'anonymous sources' without any credible evidence to support them.

Apparently U.S. capabilities have improved immensely from those days almost a decade ago when it relied a great deal upon the efforts and opinions of its putative allies.

The US has to provide the evidence to support these allegations - there is no reason for it not to, except that the evidence does not really exist.

As far as U.S. officials are concerned providing evidence doesn't work; either the terrorists will be tipped off or else Pakistan will flat-out refuse to do anything, as it has in North Wazirstan.

Kashmir is not part of the Indian State, for one, and the IA's own statements, as I pointed out earlier, indicate much, much lower insurgent infiltration activity as well as insurgent activity in IaK, so I fail to see any justification for your comment here.

Simply that I think Pakistan will be more successful in its contest with India without insurgents than with them. Training and harboring them leads to too many casualties at home and their practical effectiveness against India seems to be nil.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Why do you continue to equate military and government employees as New York Times journalists? Feel free to use a search engine of your choice to gather what important people are saying, not just lowly paid NYT journalists, and being journalists they shouldn't be hated like they have been in Pakistan, these people are relatively highly paid over here to protect them from bribes, coercion and corruption.

IF these journalists were actually doing their job and reporting in an 'unbiased and objective manner', then any allegations by 'anonymous US officials' should have been verified and the Pakistani position sought before publishing the article.

The manner in which the article was published, with the emphasis placed on the unsubstantiated statements by 'anonymous US officials' is quite clearly meant to push one specific POV - propaganda.

This isn't journalism, this is a one sided regurgitation of unverified claims without providing the opposing POV - i.e. propaganda.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan provided, as far as I know, one kernel of information that took some work to be recognized as relevant. Providing it could well have been a slip by somebody.

And without that Kernel, per US officials themselves, the picture would not have been complete. And your speculation that the intelligence provided by Pakistan was a 'slipup' is debunked by the fact that Arab diplomats have stated (CNN interview) that Pakistan was aware of increased US activity in Abbottabad, and contacted the Arabs to see if they knew what it was about. Had there been any institutional knowledge of OBL's presence, he would have been relocated as soon as the ISI found out the US was snooping around.

So your speculation of 'slip-up' does not fly.

Wouldn't you expect the ISI to lie rather than puncture its carefully crafted image of the ISI being all-aware and all-knowledgeable?

Nice try - but those claims, of Pakistani knowledge of increased US intelligence activity, were made by Arab diplomats to CNN, as pointed out above.

Suspiciously timed to coincide with upcoming critical visits by U.S. officials, some Pakistanis say. Their implication is that the ISI could do more but chooses not to.

Given that some US official or the other is in Pakistan almost every week, you could call almost any development in Pakistan 'coincidentally related to upcoming visits by US officials'.

Apparently U.S. capabilities have improved immensely from those days almost a decade ago when it relied a great deal upon the efforts and opinions of its putative allies.

The US relied on people arrested by Pakistan (Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and other AQ Members) on intelligence provided by Pakistan, and Pakistan allowing unhindered US intelligence activities in Abbottabad, to track down OBL. So I'd say that the facts point to continued 'reliance on the efforts and opinions of its putative allies'. But I understand that you simply cannot credit Pakistan for anything given your anti-Pakistan prejudice and hatred, even if it requires inventing fanciful conspiracy theories and contorted and speculative arguments to try and malign Pakistan.

As far as U.S. officials are concerned providing evidence doesn't work; either the terrorists will be tipped off or else Pakistan will flat-out refuse to do anything, as it has in North Wazirstan.

Again, the US 'tipped of claims' were shown to be wrong. and I gave you a link to the relevant thread.

As for 'not acting', the neutralization of KSM, Libbi and hundreds more AQ members belies your claim. AQ is one thing, we are already fighting them and have already made an enemy of them, but an operation in NW stretches out the military even more than it currently is and creates another very powerful enemy in the Haqqani/Gul bahadur Taliban groups. I see nothing wrong with Pakistan's position to consolidate its gains in other parts of FATA and Swat before launching ops in NW.

Simply that I think Pakistan will be more successful in its contest with India without insurgents than with them. Training and harboring them leads to too many casualties at home and their practical effectiveness against India seems to be nil.

And as I pointed out, see that IA's own stats on cross LoC infiltration and insurgent activity in IaK, post 2001 compared to pre 2001.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Pakistan military and ISI will continue to support militant groups if it is in its interest.

Like US does in its interest may I remind you of soviet-afghan war or recent Libyan voyage? Finance Fund train and equip those aliens with beards.

 

[Slides]

I'm not here to speak for any government, nor to the gullible. Just basing things in reality. Your country is the one suffering along with Afghanistan, Iraq, and who knows how many countless others for similar reasons. The western world has NO interest in seeing people become deranged and isolated as opposed to cooperative and growth oriented. Hanging on to dying ideas will only result in greater loss for your nation. The ignorant as well as the learned weep.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. No offense.

 

[Slides]

This is all part of the US exit strategy for Afghanistan. Shift blame and focus onto a third party, i.e. Pakistan. There are no genuine or noble reasons for the US to be pumping out all this propaganda. Even some people like Rummy can see through the BS.

 

[MiloMayor]

You tell us, it's America's policy. The word Jihad had been missing in the muslim vocabulary for over 1000 years. You re-introduced it to paint the war against the Soviets as a muslim duty. Only problem was that after the Soviets collapsed, America itself began to fall true to the description it had painted of an "Oppressor" so it's actually your policy that is the reason for suffering in much of the world.

Jihad has never been missing from the Muslim vocabulary from its beginning. It doesn't needs any introduction. you sided with us against the Soviets for your benefits and because of the fear of Soviet union. Every country thinks about its foreign policy and takes a position which is advantageous to it. That's what Pakistan did then. After that it thought that using Islamic terrorist as a weapon to fight the enemy will benefit the country. But to the contrary it had failed. You can blame others for your failure. Instead of complaining, just do an introspection. Think about Zia and the policies he had implemented.

 

[MiloMayor]

I am not countering the article solely on the basis of the inconsistent use of 'currency', but the various other outlandish claims, that a militant leader would have no clue about. No 'ISI Wing' is going to advertize itself to any militant, leader or foot soldier, as 'being responsible for distributing funds'. They don't run HR offices for the militants to contact in case of payment issues.

And the US, Pakistan and various other nations have themselves argued that the majority of the financing for these groups comes from
(1) Arab Nations, specifically the Gulf Nations, through illegal channels mostly
(2) Drug trade, smuggling, gun running, kidnapping, extortion and various other crimes.

So how exactly is now the ISI 'paying $50 to a fighter and $500 to a leader'? Or why on earth is the ISI even bothering to provide funds when the militants have a whole bunch of finance sources already?

Like I said, too many loopholes in this story - its a bunch of lies, perhaps not by the journalist herself, but certainly by this alleged 'militant leader'. And these lies and propaganda will be lapped up by the target audience in the West, as part of the continuing smear campaign against Pakistan's military and intelligence, to put pressurize Pakistan to back down in the latest tensions between the US-Pakistan.

Outright thuggery and deceit by the US Establishment is what this is.


The media nonsense on the recent bomb factory raids has already been countered officially by Pakistan. Please see the relevant thread linked below. And BTW, did the US Establishment even offer an official set of allegations backed with evidence, or was this all the usual 'anonymous sources propaganda'?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/115313-pakistan-army-intel-bomb-sites-wrong.html


Please explain to me what 'other strategic gains' you are referring to, that Pakistan would gain from supporting the likes of the TTP and Hakimullah Mehsud, who have so far been virtually non-existent in their role in Afghanistan against NATO/ANA?

The only thing the TTP and Hakimullah Mehsud have done so far is carry out perhaps thousands of suicide bombings and attacks against Pakistan's intelligence agency, military, paramilitaries, police and civilians. They have tried to foment sectarian strife by targeting various minority sects and communities, and set back the economy severely, and in fact caused 'strategic concerns' by allowing the international community to talk about the risk to Pakistan's nuclear program and weapons.

Just this fact alone makes the 'interview and claims' of this alleged 'militant leader' ludicrous and fanciful.

Even if there is a video where the militant says " yes this is what the army does" people from Pakistan wont accept that. Some wing in the Army might be the middleman who distributes the above said illegal money to the militants, who knows? Will somebody excepts a receipt and a buy back policy for these kind of transactions? You may also confront Musharraf statement of supporting terrorism. But these are facts that are known to the world.

I can also confront the Pakistan views of the bomb factory story. But that's not my motive. I am talking of a broader view. Why cant Pakistan change its failed policy and that's what, that I have highlighted.

I am not talking about particular groups supported by the army, I am talking about groups that are supported by the army. And the "other strategic gains" I am talking about is foot hold in Afghanistan and Kashmir. These are the two motives behind all the support of Militants where it had backfired. See how many innocent Pakistanis are getting killed by the same militants that are/were supported by the army. Does Pakistan really thinks that gaining a foothold in the neighboring countries is more important that the lives of its citizens?

Every country acts on a policy that is good for it in the long run, but when the policy they have followed for some time had failed, Don't you think its time to change that?

US is going to leave Afghanistan in a matter of months. If the Pakistan leadership is clever enough, they can use it to their advantage and establish a good relation with Afghanistan and make this land locked country to be dependent on Pakistan. This can be achieved without the need of terrorists and the support of army to them. Pakistan can be a gateway to Afghanistan without firing a bullet. To the advantage of Pakistan both countries have a common religion. Last but not the least, you can literally buy Karzai easily.

Pakistan has been harboring terrorist in Kashmir for more than two decades. No body can deny this. What have you achieved by doing this? Kashmir is not even the subject discussion in any international forums except some mumblings in forums dominated by Islamic nations without any effect. So Internationally this had failed. What about land gains, NIL. What about economic gain? This is really striking, I don't need to talk about this. This has reached a point where terrorists are surrendering in lieu of good life. Imagine if these entire resources were diverted towards the development of Pakistan! Why Pakistan wants to fight a loosing war even after realizing that it had failed? Why cant the army changes its policies and priorities?

The only Institution that had gained in the name of safe guarding the nation for its entire history is Pakistan's army without gaining any square inch of land. The wealth acquired by the army leaps the wealth gained by a normal citizen. For every country an army is needed to survive, but for Pakistan's army a country is needed.

 

[Slides]

Strategic depth is simply no longer a policy followed by the Pakistani security establishment. Period.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Even if there is a video where the militant says " yes this is what the army does" people from Pakistan wont accept that.

So if you really believe in 'Video confessions', lets start here:
[video]http://youtu.be/U1UjsgeQfyQ[/video]

So the terrorist, from Afghanistan, claims he is being paid 20000 rupees for every Pakistani soldier he kills.

[video]http://youtu.be/J9N1LWAQAHM[/video]

In case you can't understand the second video, the LeJ terrorist is claiming that India funds their terrorist operations in Pakistan.

Shall we start here then? No double standards now ...

Some wing in the Army might be the middleman who distributes the above said illegal money to the militants, who knows? Will somebody excepts a receipt and a buy back policy for these kind of transactions? You may also confront Musharraf statement of supporting terrorism. But these are facts that are known to the world.

When did Musharraf claim he was supporting terrorists?

I can also confront the Pakistan views of the bomb factory story. But that's not my motive. I am talking of a broader view. Why cant Pakistan change its failed policy and that's what, that I have highlighted.

If you can confront them then please go ahead and do so on the relevant thread. Merely claiming you can do so is childish.

I am not talking about particular groups supported by the army, I am talking about groups that are supported by the army. And the "other strategic gains" I am talking about is foot hold in Afghanistan and Kashmir. These are the two motives behind all the support of Militants where it had backfired. See how many innocent Pakistanis are getting killed by the same militants that are/were supported by the army. Does Pakistan really thinks that gaining a foothold in the neighboring countries is more important that the lives of its citizens?

Every country acts on a policy that is good for it in the long run, but when the policy they have followed for some time had failed, Don't you think its time to change that?

None of the above addresses the central point being raised by Pakistanis here, that the allegations against the ISI and PA are unsubstantiated and unverified, and will remain so until credible evidence is provided.

 

[Pak_Sher]

The struggle for the freedom of Kashmir cannot be labelled as terrorism. The Christians played this game in muslim countries and in the world before in the name of coloialism. People in India that were against the British were labelled terrorsts and taken to Malta (The Gutanamo Bay) of the British. French played the same game and so did the Germans, Dutch, Spanish etc. Now when Christians rise in Indonesia they are freedom fighters and UN grants them autonomy and UN grants the Christians a new country in Sudan.

What Israel does is never terrorism since they have all the US Politicians in their pocket. Kashmir will be free andd the India will have to accept the 2 oustanding UN resolutions on Kashmir.