Pakistan-Turkey 4 Milgem Ada Class Corvettes Contract - Construction started

[Tank131]

Hi,

Oh wow---.

Seems like you got a promotion at work or got the ear of your boss.

This kind of attitude with one of the most literate person on naval weapons systems on the forum is strange to say the least---.

I dont think i would go that far as there are many well respected and far more knowledgeable members here than myself, but very much appreciate your kind words.

 

[Armchair]

I wonder if someone could shed some light on the issue of collaboration between the various branches of the Pak forces.
The point I am trying to make is that whereas AWC is working on an indegenous AESA could this effort on success be translated into AESA radars for the PA and PN. I fail to understand why we cannot translate one aspect of success into another.
A2A missiles are another sphere of interoperability. Can it be translated into SAMs as the tech for the rocket should be the same. Possibly the constraints of miniaturization might not be required for a SAM as it would for an AAM. Once in case of success with MRAAM can we translate it into Medium to long range SAMS and so on.
If someone can highlight what the tech difficulties are I would be obliged. To me commonality of armaments will lead to economy of scale as well as enough orders for the country to be able to manufacture the systems.
A

I have been thinking about this for a while and was thinking about it when I opened this thread

It would be interesting to make a jf17 equivalent for the navy.
A 1000 ton corvette with simplified modern configuration. About 1 month endurance.
Radar could be a version of the AESA going into the JFT that will alow it to track and scan simultaneously. Link 17, EW, datalinks.
Local AShMs.
Sam system based on the SD10.
Since PAF is using pl15 now, can the sd10s not be reworked and repurposed as SAMs?
Korkut instead of the main gun which will allow it to serve a dual ciws / main gun role.
In short:
1000 tons
KORKUT
SD10 medium SAMs
6x AShMs
Hull mounted sonar
Crew 20
Camcopter type UAV

If you mass produce 20 such ships, you change the equation of the Indian Ocean.

 

[The Accountant]

I have been thinking about this for a while and was thinking about it when I opened this thread

It would be interesting to make a jf17 equivalent for the navy.
A 1000 ton corvette with simplified modern configuration. About 1 month endurance.
Radar could be a version of the AESA going into the JFT that will alow it to track and scan simultaneously. Link 17, EW, datalinks.
Local AShMs.
Sam system based on the SD10.
Since PAF is using pl15 now, can the sd10s not be reworked and repurposed as SAMs?
Korkut instead of the main gun which will allow it to serve a dual ciws / main gun role.
In short:
1000 tons
KORKUT
SD10 medium SAMs
6x AShMs
Hull mounted sonar
Crew 20
Camcopter type UAV

If you mass produce 20 such ships, you change the equation of the Indian Ocean.

Considering our requirement jf17 ewuivallent of navy is difficult. However we need to invest in sub systems that can be used with little modifications in all the three branches.

Radars, seekers, warheads, armoured vehicles, communication equipment and different type of sensors.

Investment in these areas will create local jobs as well save the foreign reserves which can be used in procuring the latest technologies

 

[Tank131]

I have been thinking about this for a while and was thinking about it when I opened this thread

It would be interesting to make a jf17 equivalent for the navy.
A 1000 ton corvette with simplified modern configuration. About 1 month endurance.
Radar could be a version of the AESA going into the JFT that will alow it to track and scan simultaneously. Link 17, EW, datalinks.
Local AShMs.
Sam system based on the SD10.
Since PAF is using pl15 now, can the sd10s not be reworked and repurposed as SAMs?
Korkut instead of the main gun which will allow it to serve a dual ciws / main gun role.
In short:
1000 tons
KORKUT
SD10 medium SAMs
6x AShMs
Hull mounted sonar
Crew 20
Camcopter type UAV

If you mass produce 20 such ships, you change the equation of the Indian Ocean.

I think enlarging Azmat to 2x its size will enable such a corvette. Im not sure the DK-10 (SAM version of sd-10) is navalized just yet, nor if it would fit on such a corvette, but the Umkhonto EIR would and with a 35km range is better than anything currently in PN. You could fit 4 C-802 on it and instead of Korkurt/Gokdeniz CIWS i would consider Pantsir-M.

 

[Armchair]

I think enlarging Azmat to 2x its size will enable such a corvette. Im not sure the DK-10 (SAM version of sd-10) is navalized just yet, nor if it would fit on such a corvette, but the Umkhonto EIR would and with a 35km range is better than anything currently in PN. You could fit 4 C-802 on it and instead of Korkurt/Gokdeniz CIWS i would consider Pantsir-M.

If you put all that it will cost about 100 million per ship.

What I am suggesting gets us a capable corvette for about half that amount and little of that money goes out of the country.

Enlarging Azmat is an option but problem with Azmat is structurally it is not amenable to enlargement. You would basically have to enlarge it from a fresh piece of paper.

 

[Tank131]

If you put all that it will cost about 100 million per ship.

What I am suggesting gets us a capable corvette for about half that amount and little of that money goes out of the country.

Enlarging Azmat is an option but problem with Azmat is structurally it is not amenable to enlargement. You would basically have to enlarge it from a fresh piece of paper.

I think if you want a 1000t ship with sufficient Aianti air, surface and sub capabilities you will need to spend around $100M per ship. But compare that to the price of current F-22P ($175M) which are 3x the size with similar capabilities (except carrying more ASHM but inferior Air defense) i think it is a reasonable price. If you want it cheaper you would need to skimp on something (likely anti sub capability). In that case you may as well restructure the Azmat but keep its size.

 

[Armchair]

I think if you want a 1000t ship with sufficient Aianti air, surface and sub capabilities you will need to spend around $100M per ship. But compare that to the price of current F-22P ($175M) which are 3x the size with similar capabilities (except carrying more ASHM but inferior Air defense) i think it is a reasonable price. If you want it cheaper you would need to skimp on something (likely anti sub capability). In that case you may as well restructure the Azmat but keep its size.

If we use Turkish Hull mounted sonar, local SAM, local antiship, and ciws at A position, and reduce the helicopter to a UAV, we can have all of that at about 50 million.
Umkhomto itself will cost minimum 25 million.
These foreign systems in your spec sheet double the price...
Now imagine if we use a single AESA radar for both fire and scan, and if this AESA is developed from the JFT indigenous radar being developed.
Would be an 80 - 20 solution.
Yes, such a configuration would not have the full blown capabilities of the Turkish corvettes, but give 80 percent of the capability and 20% of the price.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The delivery time is not favorable

60 months~ 5 years for first ship long time frame

Our own Azmat class missile ship took 3 years again double the time should have been completed in 1 year to 1.5 years

 

[Armchair]

The delivery time is not favorable

60 months~ 5 years for first ship long time frame

Our own Azmat class missile ship took 3 years again double the time should have been completed in 1 year to 1.5 years

KSEW had a learning curve and also needs and org restructuring.
And if all else fails get China or Damen to build the specified frame.

 

[Tank131]

If we use Turkish Hull mounted sonar, local SAM, local antiship, and ciws at A position, and reduce the helicopter to a UAV, we can have all of that at about 50 million.
Umkhomto itself will cost minimum 25 million.
These foreign systems in your spec sheet double the price...
Now imagine if we use a single AESA radar for both fire and scan, and if this AESA is developed from the JFT indigenous radar being developed.
Would be an 80 - 20 solution.
Yes, such a configuration would not have the full blown capabilities of the Turkish corvettes, but give 80 percent of the capability and 20% of the price.

The problem is there is no local sam exceot Anza (so why even add it), and no local CIWS, nor a helicopter drone. The development of these would be over 100m each. While i get what you are saying, the entire problem is off the shelf solutions are needed because Pakistan doesn't have these things. Now we know the hulls likely could be cheap as Pakistan sourced Damen hulls for ~$50M/ship (if im not mistaken @Bilal Khan (Quwa)). I would suggest going for an 850-1000t up scaled design based on Azmat design (its the same concept that the Turks were doing milgem/tf-100/tf-2000 designs). Add a hulk mounted sonar, torpedos, and rocket oropelled depth charges If you dont want to spendthe money for Umkhonto, then remove the current main gun of Azmat and replace it with Pantsir-M which has 2 gatling style CIWS guns and 8 missiles with 20km range. Keep the rear AK-630 move the RHIB dock to a side bay. Replace the rear RHIB dock with a small helipad for a SAR/light attack/dipped sonar unmanned utility chopper...like a modied AVIC AV-500W. It already is armed with 2 8kg antitank missiles with 5km range. Im sure the thing could also be modified to drop life saving equipment (like a self inflatable raft) if utilized for SAR and remain on station until help from the main ship (a RHIB or mother ship itself) arrived. It could also be modified to use dipped sonar array and maybe a few depth charges for antisub role (probably too small for even a light torpedo)

The delivery time is not favorable

60 months~ 5 years for first ship long time frame

Our own Azmat class missile ship took 3 years again double the time should have been completed in 1 year to 1.5 years

That doesn't mean you dont build capacity. Remember there are changes made to 4th Azmat that apparently done in house. Some of that likely extended the time for construction. Are they going to pumpnout ships as fast as china right away, no but slowly they will build capacity. I thino the planning though must start from today.

 

[Armchair]

The problem is there is no local sam exceot Anza (so why even add it), and no local CIWS, nor a helicopter drone. The development of these would be over 100m each. While i get what you are saying, the entire problem is off the shelf solutions are needed because Pakistan doesn't have these things. Now we know the hulls likely could be cheap as Pakistan sourced Damen hulls for ~$50M/ship (if im not mistaken @Bilal Khan (Quwa)). I would suggest going for an 850-1000t up scaled design based on Azmat design (its the same concept that the Turks were doing milgem/tf-100/tf-2000 designs). Add a hulk mounted sonar, torpedos, and rocket oropelled depth charges If you dont want to spendthe money for Umkhonto, then remove the current main gun of Azmat and replace it with Pantsir-M which has 2 gatling style CIWS guns and 8 missiles with 20km range. Keep the rear AK-630 move the RHIB dock to a side bay. Replace the rear RHIB dock with a small helipad for a SAR/light attack/dipped sonar unmanned utility chopper...like a modied AVIC AV-500W. It already is armed with 2 8kg antitank missiles with 5km range. Im sure the thing could also be modified to drop life saving equipment (like a self inflatable raft) if utilized for SAR and remain on station until help from the main ship (a RHIB or mother ship itself) arrived. It could also be modified to use dipped sonar array and maybe a few depth charges for antisub role (probably too small for even a light torpedo)


That doesn't mean you dont build capacity. Remember there are changes made to 4th Azmat that apparently done in house. Some of that likely extended the time for construction. Are they going to pumpnout ships as fast as china right away, no but slowly they will build capacity. I thino the planning though must start from today.

Ask your boys in black - there is an indigenous SAM in development maybe you may see it on a ship soon...
You don't need an indigenous ciws, korkut or a 630 will do. 630s are dirt cheap...
Unlike the umkhomto which costs minimum 25 million usd.

Go for a Turkish sonar, they are equal to any Western system.

Are we done?

Regarding uav - go with the seibel camcopter or the cheaper Korean system. At worse case go with a DJI Drone - costs about 20000 usd only. I used to be a dealer

 

[Tank131]

Ask your boys in black - there is an indigenous SAM in development maybe you may see it on a ship soon...
You don't need an indigenous ciws, korkut or a 630 will do. 630s are dirt cheap...
Unlike the umkhomto which costs minimum 25 million usd.

Go for a Turkish sonar, they are equal to any Western system.

Are we done?

Regarding uav - go with the seibel camcopter or the cheaper Korean system. At worse case go with a DJI Drone - costs about 20000 usd only. I used to be a dealer

I hope you are correct on the SAM, but i am confident i will be underwhelmed (likely low to medium ranged, single packed not navalized). Lol, i know i have nothing to base that on but we all know how it goes lolz!

 

[ziya]

in a interview with meteksan officals he said pakistan intented to use sonar system on milgem that different from original but we showed that our sonar system is better and cheaper so they decided to go meteksan yakamos sonar system as original milgem,so ı understand that pakistan is not easy customer its good for you and also for us to challenge

 

[HRK]

in a interview with meteksan officals he said pakistan intented to use sonar system on milgem that different from original but we showed that our sonar system is better and cheaper so they decided to go meteksan yakamos sonar system as original milgem,so ı understand that pakistan is not easy customer its good for you and also for us to challenge

any idea PN was interested sonar system of which country initially other then Turkish sonar .... ???

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

any idea PN was interested sonar system of which country initially other then Turkish sonar .... ???

Didn't Pakistan at one point make its own TAS?