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Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

Earlier in 1990,s pakistan had almost done a deal for 32 mirage 2000. But price went up due to loan and instead of 3 billion dollars, it went upto 4.2 billion dollars. While in that decade, PAF neede 916 million dollars for other projects as mirage upgrade, second hand mirages purchase, radars, avianics etc. So deal was not materialised
 
Earlier in 1990,s pakistan had almost done a deal for 32 mirage 2000. But price went up due to loan and instead of 3 billion dollars, it went upto 4.2 billion dollars. While in that decade, PAF neede 916 million dollars for other projects as mirage upgrade, second hand mirages purchase, radars, avianics etc. So deal was not materialised

Mr.10% reportedly was a big reason in the deal going down.
 
You do t seem too happy. Might I enquire why?
A

Sir might have sounded sarcastic but it was not intended. I think what PAF will eventually end up doing is another Mirage/Rose thingie with the F-16. But this time around it is a better bet as advanced versions of the bird are still flying and being produced.

Essentially, buy about forty or so new build birds and acquire as and when we can get hold of, used birds and upgrade them in Turkey! To mitigate the spares issue -- we have some working relationship with Turkey and access to used planes -- just as we did in case of our Mirages. Almost 100 birds were bought to cannibalize for spares!

IMHO, 150 or so F-16 about 250 or so JFT's eventually upgraded to its definitive block (IV with composites and new engine, AESA and BVR) and about 50 heavy fighters will do the trick.

My 2C
 
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I guess so! PAF seems to be sticking to its original requirement of 120 to 130 birds.
I think better for PAF is to go for:
1. 32 Block-52 + 18 Block-52 already present
2. more used F-16s block-15 like:
45 from Jordan + 16 already arrived
12 remaining F-16s from US + any additional F-16s from US reserves
21 F-16s from Venezuela

But PAF has to make a right decision by converting those Block-15s to at least Block-30/32 F-16s like Egypt did it.

I am sure that PAF wants more F-16s and now I am sure that PAF needs more Fighters not the old plan of 350-400. As our requirements are growing on daily basis to strike better inside and outside of Pakistan then we need more aircraft. I wish to see a deal for some 50 EF-2000s and 50 Grippen NGs too.
 
Procure large number of jf17 dont go for used f16 even if we dont have much money for other jets buy quality ones ignore quantity cause it is compensated by jf17. Either Su35 or Chinese flankers or j31 even if not in huge numbers they do project a greater power
 
Lockheed Martin tests F-16 durability
Lockheed Martin is conducting tests to determine extended life-cycle flight hours for F-16 aircraft.
By Richard Tomkins | Nov. 3, 2015 at 3:34 PM
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Lockheed-Martin-tests-F-16-durability.jpg

An F-16C Block 50 used by Lockheed Martin in durability testing. Photo by Lockheed Martin
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FORT WORTH, Texas, Nov. 3 (UPI) -- An extended flight-hour limit for F-16C Block 50 aircraft is to be determined by Lockheed Martin with data gathered through simulated flights.

The data will help determine the durability of the aircraft beyond the original design service life of 8,000 hours, the company reported.

So far, 27,713 equivalent flight hours have been logged by a test aircraft during 32 rounds of comprehensive stress tests and its airframe subjected to several maximum-load conditions to demonstrate if the airframe had sufficient strength to operate within its full operational flight envelope.

Lockheed said the F-16 is now in the teardown inspection and fractography phase of the test program at the company's Full Scale Durability Test facility in Fort Worth. Durability test results will be used to help design and verify Service Life Extension Program, or SLEP, structural modifications.

The modifications will be for post-Block 40 F-16s and will also support F-16 service life certification to at least 12,000 extended flying hours.

"The successful completion of this phase of full-scale durability testing demonstrates that this aircraft was built to last," said Susan Ouzts, vice president of Lockheed Martin's F-16 program. "This should provide even more confidence to current and potential new F-16 customers that the combat-proven F-16 will continue to play a crucial role in international security."
 
Sir might have sounded sarcastic but it was not intended. I think what PAF will eventually end up doing is another Mirage/Rose thingie with F-16. But this time around it is a better bet as advanced versions of the bird are still flying and being produced.

Essentially, buy about forty or so new build birds and acquire as when we can get hold of, used birds and upgrade them in Turkey! To mitigate the spares issue -- we have some working relationship with Turkey and access to used planes -- just as we did in case of our Mirages. Almost 100 birds were bought to cannibalize for spares!

IMHO, 150 or so F-16 about 250 or so JFT's eventually upgraded to its definitive block (IV with campsites and new engine AESA and BVR) and about 50 heavy fighters will do the trick.

My 2C
Firstly we are all brothers here so no Sirs please.I am too humble a being to be elevated to the rank nor do I desire it.
The only reason I asked was the tone of the post which suggested something was not quite as pleasing to you and wanted to know to start another debate and perhaps break the numbers game and the delusions of grandeur which come out of some posters.
I do agree with your analysis. However it might have been better if we had gone down the route of some other acquisition cycle rather than the fickle US temperamental supply chain in spite of their products providing the biggest bang for the buck. My problem remains one of a paranoid approach of once bitten twice shy. The S word that is forever hanging over this relationship.
However we have chosen an easier path putting our prized possessions in the same hands where we have been chastised. Could we have done any different? Yes. Would the outcome have been any different possibly not.
The options open to us are to go lock stock and barrel for the M2K in 2002. 16s were no where in sight the assembly line was closing down and Pakistan was just coming out of recession. Would it have proven a better acquisition? The outlay would have been a couple of billions and the engine might have had to be upgraded. The French were down and possibly might have relented and the UAE M2Ks might have ended up with us. The planes were quoted at 60 million a pop which for second hand jobs were expensive to say the least. However the crunch question was whether the French would have provided us the assembly line and more importantly whether we would have been able to absorb the technological challenges. This could have been a hurdle which we thought not possible.
We chose to go down the JFT route which allowed us to establish the industry at a slower pace working with materials which we were used to and good support from our friends who although have made money from us have also in the process helped us a lot. A wise decision and as time wìll probably prove a fruitful one.
The J10 saga. We chose to go down the J10 routs when Musharraf returned from the US and signed a memorandum of understanding in 2008?,,?thereby committing our selves to buy 40 of them. It would have complied with our policy of not giving the US the chance to disable an integral arm of our fleet at its whim by covering our bases with duplicated platforms. We asked for changes to the platforms which were duly made however we heard a funny statement I have never made any sense out of that the platform was nonupgradeable and PAF felt that JFT had more chances of getting upgraded when every one including the very designer of JFT was telling us that a much simpler approach was utilized in JFT. Whether that was a fact or a face saving solution from the PAF to hide the incompetence of Zardari remains to be seen. Zardari has now gone however there is no sign of J10 inspite of its newer iteration. The engine is being blamed but we seem to be in no hurry to get the J10s. Noone seems to know whether the plan has been dropped totally or whether some turnkey events are being waited for before it starts arriving.
The Russian offerings. Strategic regional reallignment has brought these two bitter enemies of the past closer together. We have inked a deal for some helos and there is talk of a lot more. Whether this is reality or another smoke screen remains to be seen. There is talk of the SU35s coming to PAF. While a great fan of these beasts I hesitate to venture an opinion on the feasibility of such an acquisition without actually denying the need. There are many aspects which make it an expensive and from certain angles an unwise move. Whether this union of convenience is strong enough to make and sustain the rigors of a platform sale remains to be seen.
The next generation plane. PAF had made it amply clear its interest in a couple of Chinese platforms which are 5th generation. Tests have taken place however there are technicalities which need resolving. Either case j31 will not see Pakistan as its new home till 2023-25. The finances of the project are also a headache as CATIC wants someone to invest in the project now and provide the money needed to complete and mature the project. PAF wants a risk free approach and wants Chinese Govtt/CATIC to invest in the project and once mature they will buy it off the shelf. PAF is also "looking" at other projects cor nothing else but to signal the Chinese that they are not the only providers of products and we have other options. Whether good or bad strategy needs to be seen.
So in short or not so short we have run out of options and have instead decided to go for the convenient choice in spite of major considerations and concerns. We are hoping to utilize our new found regional support to leverage US acquiescence in arms sale which remains a hard bridge to cross. We are also building enough spares to hopefully ride out any repeat of the 90s.
A
 
Sir might have sounded sarcastic but it was not intended. I think what PAF will eventually end up doing is another Mirage/Rose thingie with the F-16. But this time around it is a better bet as advanced versions of the bird are still flying and being produced.

Essentially, buy about forty or so new build birds and acquire as and when we can get hold of, used birds and upgrade them in Turkey! To mitigate the spares issue -- we have some working relationship with Turkey and access to used planes -- just as we did in case of our Mirages. Almost 100 birds were bought to cannibalize for spares!

IMHO, 150 or so F-16 about 250 or so JFT's eventually upgraded to its definitive block (IV with composites and new engine, AESA and BVR) and about 50 heavy fighters will do the trick.

My 2C

Hi,

With due respect-----Paf has been acting lost in direction more so since 2002 than in the 90's----and at that time it was confused.

JF 17 project should have been a " side project " being pushed in parallel while meeting the other needs of the air force.

The bottomline is that even after 14 years after the sanctions came off----there has not been an induction of a potent aircraft in the right numbers other than the 18 BLK 52's---.
 
I tatally agree . In past 14 years, what we have got is meaningless. What original order was , in 2005_6, 75 block52' then reduced to 55 and then only 36 and then. Just 18. It was cancelled by Musharraf as he wanted to tell the world that we want to spend money on victems of earthquake.and then ppl saw many new faces getting billionaire...At that time, the only question asked by Lockheed was , if pakistan can pay for 75 birds?? Now they are not providing even secondhand. At that time, requirement was to offset su30. What to talk about Rafale?? And Chinese aircrafts are always under development when we need.. an example is j10. Since 2009, PAF is in need of it, and now its a failure of reverse engineering....I,m sure j31 will also be legging behind
 
Our only survival left is to invest in R & D of next blocks of JF-17 with radars, avionics, engines and weapons of 5th generation jets. Wich can be aquire from Italy, south Africa, Russia and China.
 
Interesting but probably not. Jordan Is using its 16s for a war against the takfiris. It cannot spare them af the moment. There has been no move from US to replenish their 16s with newer ones. We do need to get our own bl.15 OCUs back from US. That ans a further small order with some newer goodies might be just the medicine the doctor ordered.
A
 
Hi,

With due respect-----Paf has been acting lost in direction more so since 2002 than in the 90's----and at that time it was confused.

JF 17 project should have been a " side project " being pushed in parallel while meeting the other needs of the air force.

The bottomline is that even after 14 years after the sanctions came off----there has not been an induction of a potent aircraft in the right numbers other than the 18 BLK 52's---.

Based on a past Rao Suleman Qamar statement I believe PAF is incapable of handling newer technology. May be the cost and time associated with mastering the newer potent technology scaring the hell out of PAF
 

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