Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Quwa]

1: Everyone in the history of Pakistan, involved in the defense deals, made millions. Take Mushy for example, how does his son own over $ 25 millions of secondary /joint hold owned real estate in the US? Similarly, Mushy has a bunch of other properties and business partnerships in the UK and even in Pakistan. Majority of which, yo guessed it, are with Ex-Generals or Senior Officers he dealt with during these defense deals. So there is no holly cow in these deals. In fact, this would be true for India, China and every other country too.

2: JFT isn't a "money wasted", when it replaces the 250-300 Mirages, and F-7's its supposed to, you brought 60% of the PAF from obsolete second generation to the 4th with just 40% of the money compared to what would it really cost to do so. Plus, you by passed many foreign countries and you'll save billions in ongoing maintenance and expense.

3: Remember, the JFT is not a -16 block 52 comparison. It's much stronger and capable than what its replacing. But you do need jets like the -16 block 52 and / or J-10C's or J-11's in decent numbers. And THEN add the J-31 for 5th gen. But for now, let's focus on conventional 4th -4.5th gen needs. J-10C has matured enough to be similar to Rafale, specially with the AESA. J-11D is also a great option.

4: Funding situation, sooner or later, the FATA ops will stop. When that happens, a few billions being spent on there, will become available for other purposes. Plus, various economy and infrastructure related projects are near completion. One of the reasons that PAF is silent is due to the fact of JFT block III being a rename for a potential J-10C type of a plane where you are reusing what's already built and tested for years. So that would be real quick adoption. At this time, the real major issue is to finish infrastructure projects, start producing enough electricity, turn the keys on phase I of the CPEC and let the revenue flow. The J-10C orders can take any time, but if the PAF has her eyes on a better Western, Russian or a Chinese platform, it'll be 2018 before they can reassess the economic situation and hash-out a good few billions!!

The PAF should get used -16's in the meantime. But on the JFT, I think they should continue with Block II for now, but reconfigure a plant for J-10C type production under Block III. It'll be quicker to get those jets.



When did they approve your asylum application in Canada!!! It doesn't look like you've learned anything from this country or her system. Enjoying democracy in Pakistan and suggesting that they bag the system in Pakistan and establishment should come out with a "draw knife" . Canadian peaceful democratic system didn't teach you jack it seemed like!!

Name a general, and allow me to tell you how they miss-managed the Pakistani system and the economy!! NS or other politicians didn't rule Pakistan for 60 years out of the 70 it existed for, the military did. And if you don't plan for the future of a country with growing population, decades in advance, you end up with today's Pakistan. Where its easy to blame the guy in the seat today and ignore the screw-ups of 6 decades by others!!

Where did I say Pakistan should be ruled by generals? I simply said Pakistanis should be a drawn knife to their leaders, I.e. develop a culture of ruthless accountability and results driven focus. A country's leader - in general - is entrusted by the public with the power to greatly affect lives, in some cases even take them away. It's not a bloody joke or even a job, but a sanctified trust. If a leader - politician or general - is shown to be corrupt, inept, etc, then we should have zero tolerance for their continued leadership.

 

[Viper0011.]

It was not the defence minister but Zardari himself who was demanding money and the cost was not a million dollars but 10 million$ per plane.
A

Zardari is a super cheap AHole. But everyone involved in these kinds of deals gets kick backs, just the way business is done in this industry. The main point is to focus on capability and even with kick backs, get the top end equipment. Not some cheap crap. As long as you do that, you are god.

Where did I say Pakistan should be ruled by generals? I simply said Pakistanis should be a drawn knife to their leaders, I.e. develop a culture of ruthless accountability and results driven focus.

You used the term "establishment", not the people. The PEOPLE can hold anyone accountable, whether politicians with 1000 seats in assemblies, or the military with 550k soldiers.

The People and the Establishment are two opposite forces in a democratic system. When you suppress the People with Marshall laws, Tanks and with the Military rule, Dictators and an Establishment is given birth and then, that country's future is pretty dark, like the past 60 years of Pakistan.

 

[Quwa]

It appears that everyone in the forum has their personal likes & dislikes. Some people dislike F-16 essentially because it is American & everything from US should be discarded. Whereas for others it is the JF-17. Post quoted above calls Jf-17 as the “Worst decision ever made by PAF”.

No doubt even the best professionals have difference of opinion and one could possibly accept such comments by an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has flown many contemporary aircrafts and concluded that JF-17 performance is below par & hence would be a sitting duck in combat.

Additionally, since JF-17 is to be the ‘work horse’ of future PAF fleet; I would expect Honourable ‘Asli Lahori’ to back up such a strong condemnation of the PAF General Staff and the aircraft with concrete evidence. At the very least; a viable alternative that was available to Pakistan but was not taken up by the idiots at the PAF who pursued JF-17 instead; should be provided.

In my personal opinion; given the scarce resources available to the country and the fact that in case of any Western fighter; there would always be threat of sanctions; Thunder is the best aircraft that PAF could afford to acquire in large numbers. It may not be the ‘State of the art’ but still far superior to the Mig21’s & Mirage s that JF-17 is scheduled to replace.

This post reminds of a quote by famous sage Sh. Saadi who stated:

Harkas ra aql-e-khood by kamaal me numayed wa aulad-e khwaish ba jamaal.

Meaning “Everyone considers his intellect to be excellent and his children beautiful.” This was said in 13th century but very true even today.

No dignified PAF officer ever said JF-17 is an amazing piece of machinery, but every one of those officers will say it is the perfect machine for the job it was designed to take on. This is a backbone fighter that is meant to carry the brunt of the PAF's daily operations. It is a substantive improvement over the platforms it is replacing. It has been equipped with modern day munitions and is capable of effectively using them, and it will benefit from up and coming munitions (e.g. HOBS AAM) as well. It's not the paragon of quality or technological prowess, but it is a credible means of aerial defence.

Zardari is a super cheap AHole. But everyone involved in these kinds of deals gets kick backs, just the way business is done in this industry. The main point is to focus on capability and even with kick backs, get the top end equipment. Not some cheap crap. As long as you do that, you are god.



You used the term "establishment", not the people. The PEOPLE can hold anyone accountable, whether politicians with 1000 seats in assemblies, or the military with 550k soldiers.

The People and the Establishment are two opposite forces in a democratic system. When you suppress the People with Marshall laws, Tanks and with the Military rule, Dictators and an Establishment is given birth and then, that country's future is pretty dark, like the past 60 years of Pakistan.

This is what I said, let me know exactly how you got to the above conclusion, I'm intrigued.

"We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two."

Source: Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 618

 

[Viper0011.]

Air Marshal Nur Khan!

Now please tell us how he mismanaged the Pakistani system or failed to perform with honesty and integrity. I'm all ears.

Air Marshal's don't count. PAF and PN get like a fraction of the budget....start with the Army Chiefs. Second, the 60 year past I referred to, was a cumulative reference of a time where the military guys in rule, didn't do anything for the people of Pakistan, in terms of growth, prosperity, future planning for job creation, education, better health, electric and water needs, and all.

"We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two."

I like your little quote.

By the way, plenty of senior officers in the PAF think highly of the JFT, in terms of the capability, infrastructure and production knowledge it brought to the Pakistani society.

You think the F-7's were a great jet when the Chinese developed it? Initially, it was a 75% copy of Mig-21. BUT, it setup the infrastructure for future R&D and know how of jet manufacturing. Now the Chinese are producing Stealth jets!!! But in comparison, the JFT is a 4th Gen jet. So compared to the above example, Pakistan is starting its R&D baseline with 4th gen (current standard), which is MUCH more advanced then the F-7 that China started from!!! This is a critical point and I hope you get the picture.

Always look at the bigger picture, the machines, equipment and all scientific processes and tech used in the JFT, isn't a whole lot different than producing an FC-20 or Rafale (obviously tech base is different). But 10 years from now, if Pak grew economically as expected, and poured in a couple of billions into R&D, what makes you think she couldn't produce a 5th gen design (similar to advanced JFT or J-31) on their own?

Again, take a look at the bigger picture. Pakistanis on here, in general are VERY short sighted. Everything has to be done today, or the world will end. Now back to the top of my post, if some general had the business, economy or strategy background 50 or 30 years ago, and had setup a baseline fighter similar to a JFT back then, today, you would be producing Rafale class jets. But no one cared to think for the future and plan for it. It is ALL happening now!!

 

[araz]

Sir,

You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.

"Qais jungle main akaila hai mujhe jaane do
Khoob guzray gee jo mil baityain gay deewanay do"

 

[CHI RULES]

Ali that what make sence to me reason is F16 V is different aircraft than we have plus it looks like LK Martin introduce a cheaper version of F35 for the countries who cant afford it .there r many countries who got hundrads of F16s but cant afford F35 to replace them so this become cheaper version of F35 same tech tickle down into V .i Beleive if that is case according to jane then F16 gonna stay with PAF for another 25 to 30 yrs i hope that Lockhead move its some assembly to pak if pak look to replace all MLU and addtional F16 .Not Good news for india cold water on theior Rafele .This would cheaper fifth generation solution for pak from america to replace its F16s older ones .rest inagree with u but remember Anericans r bussinessman when its comes to money they all one they see juice in pak airforce u will see how they will pass it through congress like AH1z vipers did anybody object ?none except Hussain Haqqani

It is neither feasible for Lockhead nor shall be allowed by Israeli/Indian strategists there. Further even after upgrades we should not make F16 another Mirage for PAF as we may not be able to replace them when required due to large numbers. We should keep the F16 numbers not more than 110 to 120 with V class upgrades in our Block 40 and Block 50/52 relatively new F16s if we can afford and allowed by USA. I personally still think that USA may not provide AESA upgrade or latest IRST pods to Pak. We have one solution which is to continuously upgrade our JF17 especially with AESA and IRST pods along with stealth features. Every thing will be clear in near future.

 

[Imran Khan]

It appears that everyone in the forum has their personal likes & dislikes. Some people dislike F-16 essentially because it is American & everything from US should be discarded. Whereas for others it is the JF-17. Post quoted above calls Jf-17 as the “Worst decision ever made by PAF”.

No doubt even the best professionals have difference of opinion and one could possibly accept such comments by an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has flown many contemporary aircrafts and concluded that JF-17 performance is below par & hence would be a sitting duck in combat.

Additionally, since JF-17 is to be the ‘work horse’ of future PAF fleet; I would expect Honourable ‘Asli Lahori’ to back up such a strong condemnation of the PAF General Staff and the aircraft with concrete evidence. At the very least; a viable alternative that was available to Pakistan but was not taken up by the idiots at the PAF who pursued JF-17 instead; should be provided.

In my personal opinion; given the scarce resources available to the country and the fact that in case of any Western fighter; there would always be threat of sanctions; Thunder is the best aircraft that PAF could afford to acquire in large numbers. It may not be the ‘State of the art’ but still far superior to the Mig21’s & Mirage s that JF-17 is scheduled to replace.

This post reminds of a quote by famous sage Sh. Saadi who stated:

Harkas ra aql-e-khood by kamaal me numayed wa aulad-e khwaish ba jamaal.

Meaning “Everyone considers his intellect to be excellent and his children beautiful.” This was said in 13th century but very true even today.

what if i say i love both ? its haram and i will be kaffir sir ?

 

[Paksanity]

Air Marshal's don't count. PAF and PN get like a fraction of the budget....start with the Army Chiefs. Second, the 60 year past I referred to, was a cumulative reference of a time where the military guys in rule, didn't do anything for the people of Pakistan, in terms of growth, prosperity, future planning for job creation, education, better health, electric and water needs, and all.

Does this count?

I must tell you that I remain in contact with less privileged all the time and realities of life are raw and unrevealed to them. Boy, do they hate civil politicians? You live in US and see things from their prism, democracy -human rights and all that. A person living in a village doesn't give a damn. His problems are real life problems and I can tell you with great certainty that a common man is exploited and robbed of his earnings at every step of his life by these democratic leaders you speak of so passionately. Every year when crops are growing our beloved democratic leaders stockpile fertilisers and seeds. Farmers get them at exorbitant prices after begging at their doors. When crops are ready, the beloved democratic leaders issue orders that nobody can transport his produce outside the area. Police and civil administration won't allow them to take it to free market. They are forced to sell it at democratic leader's factories in that area at much lower price. Do you know this year we had an extraordinary rice crop? And farmers have nowhere to sell them? The beloved democratic government won't buy it because Sharif's family is not in this business and they won't allow other businesses to flourish!

It is easy to pass judgements sitting in US. Come live here. Live the life of unprivileged Pakistani citizen. Plough a field here or herd a few sheep's or work at a factory and you will know how democratic leaders suck the nation dry. There is a reason people love military here. Don't you dare judge them sitting in US.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi

This saga of JF 17 reminded me of a story I reaf around 45 years ago in my 6-8th grade class.

A simple villager Jat / Dehati went to see a clever Hakeem----. The patient claimed to have stomach ache. The hakeem on inquiry found out that the villager had eaten some bread that was burnt.

But instead of giving something to soothe the pain----the sarcastic and mean Hakeem gave the patient some Kajol / Surm to put in his eyes so that he can see better.

Now this leads me to a silly joke----it is a rascist joke---so I will stop here.

The issue is that the JF 17 was not the need of the hour. The J F 17 project was for an air force that had some free time at its hands and no threats at its borders.

What had supposedly happened was that the threat was there---but the threat analyzers got confused with some minor developments taking place in the arena---a bad decision led to another----and it was downhill from then onwards.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Bratva @Windjammer

I was informed that not all of the F-16s have gone through MLU. Can you please confirm that. If not, why?

 

[MastanKhan]

Zardari is a super cheap AHole. But everyone involved in these kinds of deals gets kick backs, just the way business is done in this industry. The main point is to focus on capability and even with kick backs, get the top end equipment. Not some cheap crap. As long as you do that, you are god.



You used the term "establishment", not the people. The PEOPLE can hold anyone accountable, whether politicians with 1000 seats in assemblies, or the military with 550k soldiers.

The People and the Establishment are two opposite forces in a democratic system. When you suppress the People with Marshall laws, Tanks and with the Military rule, Dictators and an Establishment is given birth and then, that country's future is pretty dark, like the past 60 years of Pakistan.

@Viper0011.

My assessment is that you NEVER stop a major weapons purchase because of asking of kick backs if there is nothing wrong with the weapon itself and is much needed----.

The reason being that it has taken you a few years ( unless you are Egypt and your name is Gen. Sissi ) to analyze and rate the system. It will take you a few more years to get it and operate it as well.

Now if you stop----you are going backwards---the funds that you have available are going to be wasted and the whole program is going to fail.

The best thing would have been to have carried on with the purchase and then found ways to punish that man getting kickbacks----the best way would have been to have him executed / assassinated---.

But just to stop the purchase is a no no----. That is tantamount to treason by itself---.

You guys should remember the BOFORS scandal----supposedly full of kick backs---but when the time came---those heavy guns did the job they were meant to do----.

That moment was priceless and vindicated everyone involved.

Pakistani children need to learn---deceit and deception---larceny and connivance is not only done to steal land and take bribes but is also used to strengthen the country as well.

Being honest is not enough----unless you are not a bit of a rascal inside----you have to have some larceny in you as well to protect the interests of the state.

 

[ConcealCarry]

These politicians come from within the "Quam" if politicians are corrupt, that means "Quam" itself is corrupt which has failed in the last 70 years to produce even one honest and competent politician, and If that is the case then why blame politicians, why not the nation (Quam)?

How does not wanting Sharif suddenly translate into wanting Zardari and Gilani? I don't want any of these clowns in charge of the economy. I'd rather hire a real clown to do it over these people. Heck, I'll hire a gorilla with an adopted 25 year old mentally challenged blind man with a pet weasel suffering from an amputated leg, to mange our economy.

Pakistanis need to make Pakistan incredibly hostile for the politicians, as it is the politicians in general who mis-manage the economic portfolio. We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two.

 

[Quwa]

These politicians come from within the "Quam" if politicians are corrupt, that means "Quam" itself is corrupt which has failed in the last 70 years to produce even one honest and competent politician, and If that is the case then why blame politicians, why not the nation (Quam)?

Sure, but in the end the quam needs to start getting serious and not being complacent about corrupt politicians. The blame runs both ways, I agree.

 

[Viper0011.]

@Viper0011.

My assessment is that you NEVER stop a major weapons purchase because of asking of kick backs if there is nothing wrong with the weapon itself and is much needed----.

The reason being that it has taken you a few years ( unless you are Egypt and your name is Gen. Sissi ) to analyze and rate the system. It will take you a few more years to get it and operate it as well.

Now if you stop----you are going backwards---the funds that you have available are going to be wasted and the whole program is going to fail.

The best thing would have been to have carried on with the purchase and then found ways to punish that man getting kickbacks.

MK, you hit it right on the head. You are right, let's take an example, in Gen. Zia's time, when the -16's were being considered (along with Mirages, a little later), let's say, LM's sales guy told Zia that they'd give 1% back (this is not a real life truth, so please don't start speculating a dead man's past, that's not nice).

So by buying these jets, do you think they made a mistake? Hell no. Even with "refunds" or "gifts" (the term used in these situations), you are STILL getting a top end jet. Frankly speaking, if Mushy had gotten 60 or 80 -16, block 52 for Pakistan, and had made those millions, I'd be the LAST person to get upset over it. As the benefits of such a platform literally outweigh any kick back that might've been given. Corruption is everywhere, Indian defense deals are filled with them too. But, like you said, the goal is to still get the best thing out of it for your country. If Mushy brought Mig-27's or Tornados with kick backs (instead of -16 block 52), I'd be royally pissed as Pakistan needed the -16's.

In the West, when a CEO comes, he brings his own team. He also brings his own agenda on how he'll take a business forward. In that, he brings the consulting partners and product companies that he likes. Everyone knows that there is a "relationship" between him and these companies he brought that can be doing billions worth of business. But, the business as a whole goes forward, grows and creates more profitability and growth for everyone. That's what you need to have, better end results for a business, or a country. Everyone grows and makes progress in life in this situation, as long as the leader made sincere calls, even with "gifts" involved!!

 

[niaz]

Again, take a look at the bigger picture. Pakistanis on here, in general are VERY short sighted. Everything has to be done today, or the world will end. Now back to the top of my post, if some general had the business, economy or strategy background 50 or 30 years ago, and had setup a baseline fighter similar to a JFT back then, today, you would be producing Rafale class jets. But no one cared to think for the future and plan for it. It is ALL happening now!!

I agree with most your post except the last part quoted above.

Modern fighter aircrafts are such sophisticated & complex machines that except for a privileged few; 100 years’ experience in aviation construction & pouring billions of dollars in R & D, does not guarantee that a country would be able to design & manufacture all components required for the state of the 4+ generation fighter aircraft such as Rafael, Typhoon or SU-35.

UK & Germany & Italy were pioneers in aircraft, aero engine manufacture & avionic/radar technology. But they had to pool their resources to come up with Tornado & Typhoon. Japanese Zero fighter was as good as any in WW2 but their aircraft industry is no match with the US, French or the Russian’s. Dutch, who were making excellent Fokker aircrafts have now given up?

Sweden has been manufacturing aircraft for a long time but still has to rely on US- General Electic F404 engine produced under licence for the Grippen fighter.

HAL as Hindustan aircraft was founded in 1940 and renamed as Hindustan Aeronautic in 1964. It was involved in the development of Marut as well as manufacture of Mig-21 under licence since the 1960’s. However without EL/M-2052 fire control radar developed by Israel and the General Electric F404 engine; Tejas would not become operational.

China which spent about 2.5% of its GDP on R&D (almost $300-billion) in 2014 had to purchase RD-93 engine for JF-17 from Russia.

Unable to copy it, China tries building own jet engine| Reuters

Therefore even if Pakistan had started manufacturing jets 30 or 50 years ago under licence; we simply don’t have the resources required for designing & manufacture an indigenous modern fighter jet.