Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

[Sayfullah]

I blame the state partially because it so heavily exaggerates relationships to its population and really makes them think it goes beyond politics, like the saying with Turkey how they exaggerate "1 nation 2 states" and then the whole saying with Chinese friendship being "higher than the Himalayans, sweeter than honey" etc, etc.

Too much exaggeration and our people tend to be naive and take it at face value.


How does the western world manage to produce comparatively better performing and more reliable systems? I guess harsher and more rigorous testing

Also with the Indians, in the early days they didn't have much modern American tech to experience in comparison to the Soviet stuff

I hope Pakistan's experience with high quality US weapon systems gives it a benchmark of quality to always meet

It’s about Pakistanis always looking to make someone their daddy. One day it’s usa one day it’s Turkey one day it’s Russia and another day it’s China. Pakistanis always want to be under someone. No leadership or innovative mentality in Pakistan from the people ruling it.

 

[PanzerKiel]

In just a couple years, more of the VT4 will be made locally than the Al-Khalid ever was. Currently it’s license production of some parts, local production go some parts, and full local assembly, however soon components down to the base armor will be locally produced, as was the case with AK

We would be lucky if we get the first locally made tank by 2026.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

lol western equip is more advanced in every way.

A lot has changed drastically in last 25 years. If we do data analysis and see the patterns its just matter of time before China will lead in most technologies. Not going into bits and pieces but just giving the overview from strategic pov;

See China is the only nation on earth with its very own space station. A nation has to be at pinnacle of scientific & technological levels to achieve something like that. Their rovers are at Mars, Their hypersonic weapons and advancements in AI are well acknowledged by reputed western analysts. Their progress in last 2 decades is in front of everyone, we just have to analyze it and see what that means for future. EU has no 5th gen fighter of their own but China has. China's economy is larger than whole of Europe put together. China's manufacturing power is bigger than whole of EU, their man-power, their infrastructure and everything. The technological distance between china and West has only shrinked in last 2 decades and it will only grow from now onwards where China taking lead. As it is taking lead already at many levels.

We normally see things at tactical level or component level and we predict things based on it. That's not entirely correct approach. There maybe areas and components where West is still ahead. The US is largely ahead in many things but we have to see how the gap is reduced and that's unbelievable because the pace at which they done it. See 2 decades ago, US main warship was Arleigh Burke destroyer, a 9K ton monster with Toma-hawk cruise missiles that could scare the hell of any country. At same time 2 decades ago, China's main surface ships were 2 - 3K ton ships equipped with several naval artillery guns and very few to no missiles. Today, US main naval warship is still Arleigh Burke destroyers and we have Type-52D as its counterpart in China. You can see how remarkably the gap is reduced. Similarly China had J-6 and J-7 when US already had rolled out F-22 raptor. F-22 raptor still is the US most advance fighter and see where China got from J-6 and J-7. The US technological growth became stagnant or very slow in the same duration where China took off.

China will lead the later part of 21st century. For me, its the writing on the wall.

 

[arslank03]

There are SOPs in place which ensure the mechanisms, effectiveness and upgradation of equipment that Pakistan buys from China. The equipment or weapon is thoroughly tested under different conditions of realistic scenarios.

You should talk to test pilots, engineers and drivers/loaders etc.

Again, realistic scenarios no matter how real they get, It is still pre-planned scenario within a controlled environment, unlike a real conflict. Just look at the British in the Falklands, they bought stingers, took them to war, and realized that hey, whenever we shoot planes the missile ALWAYS misses, OEM then realized that there was a bug in a piece of code which meant they would always miss. It is normal, tests and evaluations are great for showing things in a test environment, but not in a real one. Another great example, is the NH90, in evaluations it was all good but in real world deployments they found that fully kitted out soldiers would punch holes in the floor with their feet etc lol

A lot has changed drastically in last 25 years. If we do data analysis and see the patterns its just matter of time before China will lead in most technologies. Not going into bits and pieces but just giving the overview from strategic pov;

See China is the only nation on earth with its very own space station. A nation has to be at pinnacle of scientific & technological levels to achieve something like that. Their rovers are at Mars, Their hypersonic weapons and advancements in AI are well acknowledged by reputed western analysts. Their progress in last 2 decades is in front of everyone, we just have to analyze it and see what that means for future. EU has no 5th gen fighter of their own but China has. China's economy is larger than whole of Europe put together. China's manufacturing power is bigger than whole of EU, their man-power, their infrastructure and everything. The technological distance between china and West has only shrinked in last 2 decades and it will only grow from now onwards where China taking lead. As it is taking lead already at many levels.

We normally see things at tactical level or component level and we predict things based on it. That's not entirely correct approach. There maybe areas and components where West is still ahead. The US is largely ahead in many things but we have to see how the gap is reduced and that's unbelievable because the pace at which they done it. See 2 decades ago, US main warship was Arleigh Burke destroyer, a 9K ton monster with Toma-hawk cruise missiles that could scare the hell of any country. At same time 2 decades ago, China's main surface ships were 2 - 3K ton ships equipped with several naval artillery guns and very few to no missiles. Today, US main naval warship is still Arleigh Burke destroyers and we have Type-52D as its counterpart in China. You can see how remarkably the gap is reduced. Similarly China had J-6 and J-7 when US already had rolled out F-22 raptor. F-22 raptor still is the US most advance fighter and see where China got from J-6 and J-7. The US technological growth became stagnant or very slow in the same duration where China took off.

China will lead the later part of 21st century. For me, its the writing on the wall.

US growth stagnated? Are you aware that before 2020 the US had an NGAD prototype flying? US investments in naval platforms is nothing light too, the Constellation class' frigates will be deployed with Radars that put most destroyers to shame. Theres so many examples, its kinda silly to assume just because China is catching up to where the US was a few decades ago that China will now take over the next generation too. The US is designing its next-generation assets already, China is now deploying assets the US has had for decades. The reason the US had been so chill was it had no real peer threats, the Russians were nowhere near as capable and the Chinese werent as big then, now the Chinese threat is there, the US is back in action, look at the amount of NG platforms in development.

I blame the state partially because it so heavily exaggerates relationships to its population and really makes them think it goes beyond politics, like the saying with Turkey how they exaggerate "1 nation 2 states" and then the whole saying with Chinese friendship being "higher than the Himalayans, sweeter than honey" etc, etc.

Too much exaggeration and our people tend to be naive and take it at face value.


How does the western world manage to produce comparatively better performing and more reliable systems? I guess harsher and more rigorous testing

Also with the Indians, in the early days they didn't have much modern American tech to experience in comparison to the Soviet stuff

I hope Pakistan's experience with high quality US weapon systems gives it a benchmark of quality to always meetst

The west also does suffer from the same issues to be fair, some programs do end up being a mess but generally there arent much issues because as bad as it is, western systems end up in use somewhere and the issues are corrected and updated regulary. Software changes are regular and improvements are constantly made via user feedback. Cant say the same for other countries though

 

[ghazi52]

,..,,.
The VT-4 Al-Haider MBT is manufactured with gradual attempt to localise all subsystems / parts except engine.

125 mm Smoothbore Gun By HIT Taxila are used for Al-Khalid/AK-1, VT-4/Haider, T-80UD & Al-Zarrar Main Battle Tanks.

The Drivers thermal sight are also made locally.

 

[kingQamaR]

Vt4 is medium tank it's good to retire old tank fleet but Pakistan really need Turkish Altay or Korean k2 tank?

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Vt4 is medium tank it's good to retire old tank fleet but Pakistan really need Turkish Altay or Korean k2 tank?

Yeah, we have 100 billions dollars in reserves, we are exporting electricity to other countries, 240 million people have access to health and other basic amenities and so we have enough spare money to waste on New Tanks. Good idea!

BTW! even with 100 billion dollars in reserves why would we spend money on Tanks of all things? Why we can't prioritize our stuff. If we ever have extra money than instead spending on a newer type of tank we should spend on newer drones, gunships, naval platforms, 4.5 & next gen fighter aircrafts, space technologies, pour the money to develop space rockets. Once you have done all that then maybe you can think of new tanks. We need to Set right priority.

 

[kingQamaR]

Yeah, we have 100 billions dollars in reserves, we are exporting electricity to other countries, 240 million people have access to health and other basic amenities and so we have enough spare money to waste on New Tanks. Good idea!

BTW! even with 100 billion dollars in reserves why would we spend money on Tanks of all things? Why we can't prioritize our stuff. If we ever have extra money than instead spending on a newer type of tank we should spend on newer drones, gunships, naval platforms, 4.5 & next gen fighter aircrafts, space technologies, pour the money to develop space rockets. Once you have done all that then maybe you can think of new tanks. We need to Set right priority.

Have we not learnt from the Muslims suffering from invasions to occupations from IOK, Syria Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Palestine. We need to Learn from history we are not dumb fools defend our Country is a No. 1 priority. Rest I’m sorry to say comes bottom of my list. The world is becoming far more dangerous by the day and spending needs increasing for army to do its job properly.

 

[Signalian]

Vt4 is medium tank it's good to retire old tank fleet but Pakistan really need Turkish Altay or Korean k2 tank?

VT-4 is good enough to refit 1st Arnoured Div units.

 

[kingQamaR]

VT-4 is good enough to refit 1st Arnoured Div units.

Thank you

VT 4 are great Tank. But Pakistan and China need to come up with a Trophy like system for our Tanks. Pls correct me, if I’m wrong this tank not having a similar system.

Thanks

 

[Muji.Iqbal]

It’s about Pakistanis always looking to make someone their daddy. One day it’s usa one day it’s Turkey one day it’s Russia and another day it’s China. Pakistanis always want to be under someone. No leadership or innovative mentality in Pakistan from the people ruling it.

Bro, problem is that we are not strong enough to be completely independent. If you want to be independent we have to act like an independent nation, stop dual nationality, or allow it with China, improve the economy, etc.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Have we not learnt from the Muslims suffering from invasions to occupations from IOK, Syria Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Palestine. We need to Learn from history we are not dumb fools defend our Country is a No. 1 priority. Rest I’m sorry to say comes bottom of my list. The world is becoming far more dangerous by the day and spending needs increasing for army to do its job properly.

Not sure, if you are serious or really kidding lol. if we have citizens who think like that then we are doomed. Not gonna lie, I used to think exactly like that some 40 years ago when I was in 5th grade. Bro, No one is going to invade Pakistan. Why anyone would even bother to invade Pakistan and how on earth Turkish Altay or Korean k2 tank will defend it from invasion of all weapons ?

and don't worry on Army doing its job. Army is already doing its job bro. See Agriculture lands, Real estate, regime change, making new political parties on gun point. They have so much on their plate. Why you bothering them any further lol?

Edit: On a serious note, I am sure by time and exposure, you will understand what nation's really need to become successful and to survive. You have to prioritize top education and welfare of your countrymen that's why the countries are made in first place. You should also pay attention to your defence but you have to again prioritize what you are gonna buy and what you should not. A newer type of tank will easily the worst possible usage of money even if we had 100 billions dollars reserves.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Have we not learnt from the Muslims suffering from invasions to occupations from IOK, Syria Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Palestine.

Do you think if Iraq would have had modern tanks then it could have survived the invasion? BTW, just look up Iraqi armoured divisions before the start of war. Iraq was pretty beefed up on tanks. Those all were smoked. I think Saddam hussain worked on your advise and bought so many tanks and poor tanks alone could not stop the invasion. That's why tanks are not the component where you pour so much money on.

BTW, we cannot be invaded like Iraq. Because Iraq had something which we don't have - that's oil. Also we have something that Iraq didn't had - Tactical Nukes and terrain (unlike Iraqi desert terrain, we have defensive terrain that makes huge advantage, one of the reasons why Vietnam won against US. )

 

[kingQamaR]

Do you think if Iraq would have had modern tanks then it could have survived the invasion? BTW, just look up Iraqi armoured divisions before the start of war. Iraq was pretty beefed up on tanks. Those all were smoked. I think Saddam hussain worked on your advise and bought so many tanks and poor tanks alone could not stop the invasion. That's why tanks are not the component where you pour so much money on.

BTW, we cannot be invaded like Iraq. Because Iraq had something which we don't have - that's oil. Also we have something that Iraq didn't had - Tactical Nukes and terrain (unlike Iraqi desert terrain, we have defensive terrain that makes huge advantage, one of the reasons why Vietnam won against US. )

The technology gap was the biggest factor. That and tactics. The Coalition had a type of GPS, thermal optics, and a far superior air force. On the tactics side, Iraq was prepared for a defensive strategy that did poorly against the US' blitzkrieg style of offence.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

The technology gap was the biggest factor. That and tactics. The Coalition had a type of GPS, thermal optics, and a far superior air force. On the tactics side, Iraq was prepared for a defensive strategy that did poorly against the US' blitzkrieg style of offence.

Iraq was going to get doomed no matter what.

In first gulf war the US army armoured and artillery divisions moved in only when Iraqi air power was completely destroyed. So you have to prioritize your air power. Your conventional deterance is your air power. Once that is gone then no matter how many tanks or whatever type of tanks you have will make not a difference. The enemy's air power will eventually destroy everything on the ground. So when we already have Al-khalid & VT-4 tanks then there is no need for another tank purchase. if we have extra money then go for more 4.5 & 5th gen fighter aircrafts, then loads of other things before you can even think of another tank type. the space technologies are very important (from military & defense perspective). Future belongs to space powers. Space is already being weaponsized. US has a another branch for space power. World is moving to a different direction altogether.