Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[cabatli_53]

What's T-629 and why i haven't heard about it before?

I don't know what is lying behind this decision but TAI wanted to keep this program a little secret. It was the first time in 2017 SSB told that a 6t attack helicopter to be based on T-129 Atak will be developed but The name was revealed at the end of 2019.

October 2017: İsmail Demir stated that "TAI will develop a six ton attack helicopter using the same powertrain, gearbox and rotors with T-625."

02 May 2019: Temel KOTİL; Atak-II will need a new engine and so 3000shp turboshaft engine will be developed indigenously. Atak-2 will have two engine 3000 x 2 : 6000 shp.

October 2019: Temel Kotil announced that "it was being designed a six-ton attack helicopter that would fill the gap between the five-ton T129 ATAK and the upcoming 10-ton ATAK II Heavy Strike helicopter, and its name was identified as T629."

April 2020: Temel Kotil stated that "We are working on an helicopter that will be more indigenous than Atak helicopters. You know T-129 Ataks were being produced under the licence of Italy. I mean The helicopter that will be solely ours will make its maiden flight in this year."

01 Feb 2020: Temel KOTİL; “We have 3 years left for the first flight of our Atak 2 heavy class attack helicopter, after which we will finish the test and deliver it.”

I think T-629 will most probably look very similar to the one staying on right hand side. Left one is Atak-2.

 

[Armchair]

I wonder why attack helicopter wings don't use the Coanda effect. Would be interesting to see a design that uses it. The model on the right appears to be doing the opposite a bit. That can't be good from an aerodynamics point of view.
Hope they also rebalance the aircraft so that the dead weight at the tail is not needed.

Pakistan going with an all new engine sounds uncharacteristic. Never used, never tested. Would it just not be simpler to go with a tried and tested engine from a country other than the United Spates?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I wonder why attack helicopter wings don't use the Coanda effect. Would be interesting to see a design that uses it. The model on the right appears to be doing the opposite a bit. That can't be good from an aerodynamics point of view.
Hope they also rebalance the aircraft so that the dead weight at the tail is not needed.

Pakistan going with an all new engine sounds uncharacteristic. Never used, never tested. Would it just not be simpler to go with a tried and tested engine from a country other than the United Spates?

Is there an alternative engine even available? Basically, it sounds like Safran Group has no interest in working with either Pakistan or Turkey. So, when both are involved?

The saving grace with the Turkish engine is that it offers security, even though it's new and untested. But the 'untested' argument can only go far -- you cannot move to next-gen systems without new and untested systems and subsystems.

 

[Armchair]

Is there an alternative engine even available? Basically, it sounds like Safran Group has no interest in working with either Pakistan or Turkey. So, when both are involved?

The saving grace with the Turkish engine is that it offers security, even though it's new and untested. But the 'untested' argument can only go far -- you cannot move to next-gen systems without new and untested systems and subsystems.

That's true. Yet, the new engine doesn't really fit the argument of a next-gen system, its an attempt to create an engine that is on par with the US engine. By a country that has never developed such engines or any real aviation engines. In fact, with little to no past experience of doing so.

Are there alternatives? I don't know, perhaps people with better technical know how can say. But there are engines that seem to be in similar horse power and weight ranges, including Chinese ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZ-9#Performance

Then there is the Russian engine which is somewhat more powerful but heavier (and possibly bulkier). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHTEC_T800

There is also a RR engine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_MTR390

There may also be a Motor Sich option from Ukraine, I was just looking through their website and it appears they have something around that ball park, or could be customized to be closer to that ball park. http://www.motorsich.com/eng/products/aircraft/turboshaft/


Today I woke up and being a somewhat strange person I was looking through Rafale purchases, which brought me to the Qatari air force. Who are apparently looking to retire their Aerospatiale Gazelles. I think this could be interesting, particularly as Kuwait seems to be in a similar spot and the UK has a ton of them.

Could these be gotten for a minimal amount? Could they be useful to fill the gap until decent attack helicopters show up?
Quite amazing the number of countries that had these light attack / recce helicopters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aérospatiale_Gazelle

China even had a few but retired them due to perhaps not having access to spares.

While I was having this fun, I found that Italy has some Bell 412s it may be willing to pass on.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That's true. Yet, the new engine doesn't really fit the argument of a next-gen system, its an attempt to create an engine that is on par with the US engine. By a country that has never developed such engines or any real aviation engines. In fact, with little to no past experience of doing so.

Are there alternatives? I don't know, perhaps people with better technical know how can say. But there are engines that seem to be in similar horse power and weight ranges, including Chinese ones. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WZ-9#Performance

Then there is the Russian engine which is somewhat more powerful but heavier (and possibly bulkier). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHTEC_T800

There is also a RR engine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_MTR390

There may also be a Motor Sich option from Ukraine, I was just looking through their website and it appears they have something around that ball park, or could be customized to be closer to that ball park. http://www.motorsich.com/eng/products/aircraft/turboshaft/


Today I woke up and being a somewhat strange person I was looking through Rafale purchases, which brought me to the Qatari air force. Who are apparently looking to retire their Aerospatiale Gazelles. I think this could be interesting, particularly as Kuwait seems to be in a similar spot and the UK has a ton of them.

Could these be gotten for a minimal amount? Could they be useful to fill the gap until decent attack helicopters show up?
Quite amazing the number of countries that had these light attack / recce helicopters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aérospatiale_Gazelle

China even had a few but retired them due to perhaps not having access to spares.

While I was having this fun, I found that Italy has some Bell 412s it may be willing to pass on.

View attachment 627340

View attachment 627341

Though Turkey didn't design an engine of this class before, it did accumulate some experience with manufacturing the technology. Sure, it wasn't turnkey, but there's no way to engage in such work without a technology base to support it, or absorb the OEM's inputs and requirements. This includes the GE F110, GE T700, and as a supply chain contributor for the PW F135.

This work happened across a timespan of several decades, and the result of it -- besides a physical technology base -- was scores of engineers who've gone onto original design work with both Turkey's public and private sector companies.

Turkey's at where Pakistan wants to be in the next 10-15 years.

They're taking that next natural step to make their own engine (TS1400), and while it'll replace an existing US engine, it's a new platform. Even the engine it's trying to replace is a fairly recent, next-gen design (the CTS800 was chosen for use on the ill-fated RAH-66 Commanche). So, if the PA wants to try and emulate the experience it got via the CTS800, then it'll need to take a look at the TS1400.

It can hit the ground hard, and take a few years to teeth out. That is probable, but we'll have to wait and see. If we can credit the Turks for anything, anything at all, it's a fairly decent track record of bringing ambitious projects to fruition in a more than respectable time frame.

That said, the RR engine could in fact be the actual solution to fly with the T629 at first (and meet the PA's requirements). It's possible, but it seems Turkey has opted to throw its eggs in a homegrown solution.

As for the Chinese engine, the PA would probably get the Z-10ME at that point -- the T629 needs to bring what the PA saw in the T129.

However, I think your idea re: Gazelles is excellent. I'm not thrilled about picking up used aircraft (and spending money to support them), rather, it's a good idea for an original heli project in Pakistan. In fact, the design and engine for a helicopter in that class are already available in Ukraine, so with investment, Pakistan can explore it.

https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...rem-yera-vid-ukroboronpromu-na-idex-2017.html

It would likely need to be heavier (for protection, sensors, better payload, etc), but that is doable as Ukraine has engine designs of its own to sustain it.

 

[Armchair]

Though Turkey didn't design an engine of this class before, it did accumulate some experience with manufacturing the technology. Sure, it wasn't turnkey, but there's no way to engage in such work without a technology base to support it, or absorb the OEM's inputs and requirements. This includes the GE F110, GE T700, and as a supply chain contributor for the PW F135.

This work happened across a timespan of several decades, and the result of it -- besides a physical technology base -- was scores of engineers who've gone onto original design work with both Turkey's public and private sector companies.

Turkey's at where Pakistan wants to be in the next 10-15 years.

They're taking that next natural step to make their own engine (TS1400), and while it'll replace an existing US engine, it's a new platform. Even the engine it's trying to replace is a fairly recent, next-gen design (the CTS800 was chosen for use on the ill-fated RAH-66 Commanche). So, if the PA wants to try and emulate the experience it got via the CTS800, then it'll need to take a look at the TS1400.

It can hit the ground hard, and take a few years to teeth out. That is probable, but we'll have to wait and see. If we can credit the Turks for anything, anything at all, it's a fairly decent track record of bringing ambitious projects to fruition in a more than respectable time frame.

That said, the RR engine could in fact be the actual solution to fly with the T629 at first (and meet the PA's requirements). It's possible, but it seems Turkey has opted to throw its eggs in a homegrown solution.

As for the Chinese engine, the PA would probably get the Z-10ME at that point -- the T629 needs to bring what the PA saw in the T129.

However, I think your idea re: Gazelles is excellent. I'm not thrilled about picking up used aircraft (and spending money to support them), rather, it's a good idea for an original heli project in Pakistan. In fact, the design and engine for a helicopter in that class are already available in Ukraine, so with investment, Pakistan can explore it.

https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...rem-yera-vid-ukroboronpromu-na-idex-2017.html

It would likely need to be heavier (for protection, sensors, better payload, etc), but that is doable as Ukraine has engine designs of its own to sustain it.

At the end of the day, the bottom line still remains that Turkey doesn't have any experience designing such engines. And if a helicopter engine fails, it very often causes deaths not just loss of an aircraft. Not to mention the logistics nightmare.

I just don't think that makes sense for a country with very minimal resources, that, if a mistake is made, cannot just buy itself out of it.

Regarding local helicopters, there is just not enough needed units for a local helicopter. Unless the PA and PN work on a joint project. However, inter services buys are rare in Pakistan. Forces even choose their own biz jets, etc see ATR vs Saab 2000. Just doesn't make any sense but that is how things work in Pakistan (and many other countries).

Bottom line is that PA has very few attack helicopters operational while India has a vast lead in quality and quantity. Attack helicopters are going to be vital if a war in Kashmir flares up. Something has to give.

Be that as it may, has anyone wondered if Italian A-129s are available? Those would be a very nice stop gap measure as they would work well with T-129s.

Quality equipment from European sources have often been a blessing for Pakistan. The M109s are an example of this. In harsh economic times, and a time when the threat of war in Kashmir is real, hard decisions have to be made at the end of the day.

 

[Deino]

At the end of the day, the bottom line still remains that Turkey doesn't have any experience designing such engines. ....

Exactly my point in several threads and I think so far most of the guys I'm in discussion seem to ignore this or take it to much easily: No own engine for the helicopter means simply no deal and the prospect to develop one on their own in that performance class is slightly slim and given the political issues with nearly all European countries that could provide an alternative I'm sure no one would do.
And such wet-dreams to "simply" double the power output of the available ones as proposed in a certain thread last week is simply impossible.

And the same even more is relevant for the TFX, but that's a different story.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

At the end of the day, the bottom line still remains that Turkey doesn't have any experience designing such engines. And if a helicopter engine fails, it very often causes deaths not just loss of an aircraft. Not to mention the logistics nightmare.

I just don't think that makes sense for a country with very minimal resources, that, if a mistake is made, cannot just buy itself out of it.

Regarding local helicopters, there is just not enough needed units for a local helicopter. Unless the PA and PN work on a joint project. However, inter services buys are rare in Pakistan. Forces even choose their own biz jets, etc see ATR vs Saab 2000. Just doesn't make any sense but that is how things work in Pakistan (and many other countries).

Bottom line is that PA has very few attack helicopters operational while India has a vast lead in quality and quantity. Attack helicopters are going to be vital if a war in Kashmir flares up. Something has to give.

Be that as it may, has anyone wondered if Italian A-129s are available? Those would be a very nice stop gap measure as they would work well with T-129s.

Quality equipment from European sources have often been a blessing for Pakistan. The M109s are an example of this. In harsh economic times, and a time when the threat of war in Kashmir is real, hard decisions have to be made at the end of the day.

Exactly my point in several threads and I think so far most of the guys I'm in discussion seem to ignore this or take it to much easily: No own engine for the helicopter means simply no deal and the prospect to develop one on their own in that performance class is slightly slim and given the political issues with nearly all European countries that could provide an alternative I'm sure no one would do.
And such wet-dreams to "simply" double the power output of the available ones as proposed in a certain thread last week is simply impossible.

And the same even more is relevant for the TFX, but that's a different story.

You're both probably right. What you say is likelier to come to pass.

But I would still hold off definitive judgment for the actual product in reality.

Let's see how it does -- but a truth is that it would still take some years to certify the quality, you can't make it up without actually operating it for years and accumulating tens of thousands of issue-free hours.

So, the technical inabilities aside (probable, but Turkey seems to think it can overcome those), there's still a time lag to prove reliability -- this is the definitive roadblock.

That said, the attack helicopter 'race' was lost the day India got the LCH. We don't have the fiscal means to match its numbers and quality, even with the Z-10ME. I mean, it'd be a 30-40 (tops) aircraft program, against nearly 200 LCH/AH-64E. Perhaps the Z-19E could be a lower cost equalizer for quantity (with a heavier 9-10-ton type for quality)?

 

[Deino]

You're both probably right. What you say is likelier to come to pass.

But I would still hold off definitive judgment for the actual product in reality.

Let's see how it does -- but a truth is that it would still take some years to certify the quality, you can't make it up without actually operating it for several years and accumulating tens of thousands of issue-free hours.

So, the technical inabilities aside (probable, but Turkey seems to think it can overcome those), there's still a time lag to prove reliability -- this is the definitive roadblock.

Thanks for your kind reply and I fully agree. My biggest issue is that always I come of with such a critical view or even a conclusion "this is impossible" I'm always turned down as "against-Turkey" but none of the technical reasons or arguments given are replied.

Therefore You are correct ... let's wait and see but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thanks for your kind reply and I fully agree. My biggest issue is that always I come of with such a critical view or even a conclusion "this is impossible" I'm always turned down as "against-Turkey" but none of the technical reasons or arguments given are replied.

Therefore You are correct ... let's wait and see but I won't hold my breath.

But the Dino in your avatar is so big, surely, there's enough room for oxygen, no?

 

[Deino]

But the Dino in your avatar is so big, surely, there's enough room for oxygen, no?

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

That said, the attack helicopter 'race' was lost the day India got the LCH. We don't have the fiscal means to match its numbers and quality, even with the Z-10ME. But...and it might be a stretch...the Z-19 could be tenable, albeit with slightly lesser capabilities vs LCH.

Its going to be equipped with Nag ATGM too with 20km max range

 

[Shabi1]

Though Turkey didn't design an engine of this class before, it did accumulate some experience with manufacturing the technology. Sure, it wasn't turnkey, but there's no way to engage in such work without a technology base to support it, or absorb the OEM's inputs and requirements. This includes the GE F110, GE T700, and as a supply chain contributor for the PW F135.

This work happened across a timespan of several decades, and the result of it -- besides a physical technology base -- was scores of engineers who've gone onto original design work with both Turkey's public and private sector companies.

Turkey's at where Pakistan wants to be in the next 10-15 years.

They're taking that next natural step to make their own engine (TS1400), and while it'll replace an existing US engine, it's a new platform. Even the engine it's trying to replace is a fairly recent, next-gen design (the CTS800 was chosen for use on the ill-fated RAH-66 Commanche). So, if the PA wants to try and emulate the experience it got via the CTS800, then it'll need to take a look at the TS1400.

It can hit the ground hard, and take a few years to teeth out. That is probable, but we'll have to wait and see. If we can credit the Turks for anything, anything at all, it's a fairly decent track record of bringing ambitious projects to fruition in a more than respectable time frame.

That said, the RR engine could in fact be the actual solution to fly with the T629 at first (and meet the PA's requirements). It's possible, but it seems Turkey has opted to throw its eggs in a homegrown solution.

As for the Chinese engine, the PA would probably get the Z-10ME at that point -- the T629 needs to bring what the PA saw in the T129.

However, I think your idea re: Gazelles is excellent. I'm not thrilled about picking up used aircraft (and spending money to support them), rather, it's a good idea for an original heli project in Pakistan. In fact, the design and engine for a helicopter in that class are already available in Ukraine, so with investment, Pakistan can explore it.

https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...rem-yera-vid-ukroboronpromu-na-idex-2017.html

It would likely need to be heavier (for protection, sensors, better payload, etc), but that is doable as Ukraine has engine designs of its own to sustain it.

Pakistan's number requirements probably don't justify investment in development in a new type and we don't have export potential for a Gunship because this segment is saturated with options our potential clients might already have access to. In our case buying off the shelf with in the long term transfer of maintenance infrastructure technology is likely cheaper.

The main premise of buying T-129 was its high altitude performance which is largely in part because of it's engines and their reliability as a matured technology.

Now even if Turkey makes a alternate these would have teething problems and no guarantee that performance isn't compromised as compared to US engines. If we go for Z-10MEs it is not a stop gap measure but basically killing off need to buy the T-129. Not having bought Z-10MEs at the moment signals we are waiting for politics to improve and get the T-129s with US engines.

As a stop gap might add we could overhaul our existing AH-1s just as Jordan is getting or acquire additional Mi-35s as there was speculation we could buy upto 20 units in small batches. Does anyone have any idea how the 4 Mi-35s we bought are doing, is PA satisfied?

If Turkey really unable to supply T-129s with same performance capability as was when trialed then we should cancel and go for Z-10MEs. But both being bought together makes no sense.

I personally think as better armed drones being available the need for Gunships would decrease in COIN role and man portable ATGMs are more potent for PA. So PA does have the option to wait this out longer and concentrate on more pressing priorities.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

how the 4 Mi-35s we bought are doing, is PA satisfied?

@PanzerKiel

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan's number requirements probably don't justify investment in development in a new type and we don't have export potential for a Gunship because this segment is saturated with options our potential clients might already have access to. In our case buying off the shelf with in the long term transfer of maintenance infrastructure technology is likely cheaper.

The main premise of buying T-129 was its high altitude performance which is largely in part because of it's engines and their reliability as a matured technology.

Now even if Turkey makes a alternate these would have teething problems and no guarantee that performance isn't compromised as compared to US engines. If we go for Z-10MEs it is not a stop gap measure but basically killing off need to buy the T-129. Not having bought Z-10MEs at the moment signals we are waiting for politics to improve and get the T-129s with US engines.

As a stop gap might add we could overhaul our existing AH-1s just as Jordan is getting or acquire additional Mi-35s as there was speculation we could buy upto 20 units in small batches. Does anyone have any idea how the 4 Mi-35s we bought are doing, is PA satisfied?

If Turkey really unable to supply T-129s with same performance capability as was when trialed then we should cancel and go for Z-10MEs. But both being bought together makes no sense.

I agree. It's ATAK or Z-10ME. They're in the same weight and capability class.

I think the PAA wanted to emulate what India is doing, i.e., a 5-6-ton type in larger numbers (Z-10ME or ATAK), and a 8-10-ton type for quality (AH-1Z). The total scope was 45 aircraft -- i.e., 15 AH-1Z and 30 ATAK.

So, if the PAA opts for Z-10ME, I think the heavyweight is still tenable. If it's not AH-1Z, then the PAA will need an alternative.