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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

I highly doubt Americans will clear the engines for export to Pakistan. Our AH-1Z are rotting in storage and as per recent information, might be exported to another country.

This leaves two options.

Z-10ME
Mi-28 variant.
 
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I highly doubt Americans will clear the engines for export to Pakistan. Our AH-1Z are rotting in storage and as per recent information, might be exported to another country.

This leaves two options.

Z-10ME
Mi-28 variant.

can someone draw a comparison between Z-10ME and ATAK. I think for now we must go far Z-10ME and must give time to Turkish brothers to develop their engine for ATAK. Let's minus Americans and make them pay in form of denying access to CIA in respective countries.
 
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AH-1Z were going to be ordered in numbers. Over 48 in total. They would've replaced our old Cobras which have been spent during WOT. Americans are not only selling Apaches to India but also holding our AH-1Z helicopters in storage. That will create a gap.
48 AH1Zs are going to cost in billions of dollars. Also we ordered 30 T129s.
Were we going to have 48 AH1Zs+30 T129s+4Mi35=82 latest Gunships in total?
 
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AH-1Z were going to be ordered in numbers. Over 48 in total. They would've replaced our old Cobras which have been spent during WOT. Americans are not only selling Apaches to India but also holding our AH-1Z helicopters in storage. That will create a gap.
Sir sorry to reply to ur comments , but don't u think we should not buy from them ,after what they did to us in 1990s and then to 8 F16s around 2016 , also they check equipment usage plus they are now on India side ( Apaches , P8s e.t.c ) , We should not trust or buy stuff from US , will create problems for us in future i.e spare parts or in case of sanctions e.t.c . Thanks .
 
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48 AH1Zs are going to cost in billions of dollars. Also we ordered 30 T129s.
Were we going to have 48 AH1Zs+30 T129s+4Mi35=82 latest Gunships in total?

Horus wrote "were to be ordered" ... clearly hinting time before they were stopped by the Americans.
 
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Mr. Kotil said following as well;
  • TEI engine will provide 1600shp power for helicopters.
  • 6ton ITAR free Atak will make its first flight in this year, then everybody will see its appearance.
  • TAI is negotiating with a few countries for partnership on HürJet program.

PA gave TAI an extended deadline.

If TAI doesn't meet that deadline, then:
  • PA will either give them time for the TS1400 / T629
  • OR sign a Z-10ME order


Mass production of T-129 Atak is being proceeded and US allows TAI to use LHTEC engine for helicopters to be delivered for Turkish Forces. The number of T-129 Atak to be delivered will exceed 90 when the mass production completed. In this situation, If Turkey is developing a new ITAR free and better helicopter based on Atak experience by using Turkish transmission, gearboxes, rotor, engine, gun, landing gears, It means Turkey is planning to overcome the obstrucle by revealing an ITAR free attack helicopter in mainly export markets because Own requirements have already been filled by T-129 Atak in this class and The number of T-629 to be produced for Turkey will be very limited. In this aspect, I believe Pakistan will receive T-629 helicopters.
 
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  • 6ton ITAR free Atak will make its first flight in this year, then everybody will see its appearance.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ..... [NOTE: I know this post will have many 'will, should and IF', so bear with me]

I think we should drop T-129 deal altogether and if this 6 ton gunship appears on the given schedule then should test it here in Pakistan as well which hopefully if succeed would provide an alternative to Ah-1Z as well in this case we can say a final goodbye to US gunship as well .....

This will create a sizeable market for new 6 ton variant in Pakistan which at minimum would be around 40-50 gunship which further mean we could negotiate for license manufacturing of certain components as offset hence could lay foundation of helicopter industry in Pakistan .... the very first baby step
 
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@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ..... [NOTE: I know this post will have many 'will, should and IF', so bear with me]

I think we should drop T-129 deal altogether and if this 6 ton gunship appears on the given schedule then should test it here in Pakistan as well which hopefully if succeed would provide an alternative to Ah-1Z as well in this case we can say a final goodbye to US gunship as well .....

This will create a sizeable market for new 6 ton variant in Pakistan which at minimum would be around 40-50 gunship which further mean we could negotiate for license manufacturing of certain components as offset hence could lay foundation of helicopter industry in Pakistan .... the very first baby set
Not only gunship we also need a lot of transport helis for both army and navy.
 
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AH-1Z were going to be ordered in numbers. Over 48 in total. They would've replaced our old Cobras which have been spent during WOT. Americans are not only selling Apaches to India but also holding our AH-1Z helicopters in storage. That will create a gap.

Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.
 
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Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.


Even if you pay full amount upfront, you still will have no delivery and they will slap you with parking charges on top

Its not about money only.. US perceives pakistan as a threat and will not arm you any further
 
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Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.
wrong assumption ... CSF is our own money which we spent from our own defence budget .... so have every right to use that reimbursement money as per our need .....

Even if you pay full amount upfront, you still will have no delivery and they will slap you with parking charges on top
exactly refusal to approve second tranche of used F-16 from Jordan indicates in this direction .... we had the need, we had the money and we were ready to purchase but refused ... so there is deliberate attempt by US to create and maintain the certain capability gap b/w India and Pakistan
 
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Indians are not asking the Americans to partially finance the deal from their own pockets. They are paying cash. We want the gunships to be subsidised through aid money. If the AH-1Zs are that important then we should pay for them. Disputes & misunderstandings on aid can be addressed later.
Why pay premium for product that can be sanctioned..why not buy from somewhere esle...us products loose their attractivenes to us if sold at premium price
 
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Mr. Kotil said following as well;
  • TEI engine will provide 1600shp power for helicopters.
  • 6ton ITAR free Atak will make its first flight in this year, then everybody will see its appearance.
  • TAI is negotiating with a few countries for partnership on HürJet program.




Mass production of T-129 Atak is being proceeded and US allows TAI to use LHTEC engine for helicopters to be delivered for Turkish Forces. The number of T-129 Atak to be delivered will exceed 90 when the mass production completed. In this situation, If Turkey is developing a new ITAR free and better helicopter based on Atak experience by using Turkish transmission, gearboxes, rotor, engine, gun, landing gears, It means Turkey is planning to overcome the obstrucle by revealing an ITAR free attack helicopter in mainly export markets because Own requirements have already been filled by T-129 Atak in this class and The number of T-629 to be produced for Turkey will be very limited. In this aspect, I believe Pakistan will receive T-629 helicopters.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ..... [NOTE: I know this post will have many 'will, should and IF', so bear with me]

I think we should drop T-129 deal altogether and if this 6 ton gunship appears on the given schedule then should test it here in Pakistan as well which hopefully if succeed would provide an alternative to Ah-1Z as well in this case we can say a final goodbye to US gunship as well .....

This will create a sizeable market for new 6 ton variant in Pakistan which at minimum would be around 40-50 gunship which further mean we could negotiate for license manufacturing of certain components as offset hence could lay foundation of helicopter industry in Pakistan .... the very first baby set
I think the PA gave Turkey the one-year window to see the T629 fly before making another move.

Ultimately, the key here is that Turkey invited Pakistan into the T625, which basically means T629 since there's a commonality of engine, transmission and other parts.

Yes, one cost with the T629 is waiting another 2-3 years for test-flights and qualification, but with the potential upside of an non-ITAR helicopter that matches the T129's hot-and-high capabilities and endurance.

Moreover, I wouldn't discount the co-production aspect. TAI will move onto the ATAK-2, so the T629 would remain as largely an export-only program. If the PAA commits to a sufficient number, TAI itself may invest in Pakistan to set-up a manufacturing and final assembly line (with the engine and critical parts coming from Turkey).

With a new and modern platform, and a local industry base to source and support it, the PAA could stagger the procurement timeline to 15-20+ years. Basically, build a large fleet (90-120+) over the long-term.

yaap we can then further involve Turkey for other variants but as of now the need is to decide for that first baby step ....
If Pakistan can get the industry base to source and support the T629, it would basically have it for the T625 (due to commonality of engine and critical parts).

Going the T625 and T629 route would be similar to India's Rudra/LCH, which was a good idea on their part seeing they have commonality and shared maintenance/logistics infrastructure.

Pakistan can emulate that model and take it a step further by exploring a naval version of the T625 (similar to AW159), i.e., with ASW and AShW capabilities. Use that helicopter for its future frigates and corvettes.

It could be a similar experience to the JF-17 in that you end up with a lot of people who will understand a bit about helicopter manufacturing and design. In turn, you could end up with a private company that tries developing its own lightweight (<4 ton) utility helicopter.
 
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