Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[cabatli_53]

1. Prototype is prototype. The real overhaul hour after mass production and deployment is the number count.
2. Also it's not professional to compare Turboshaft Engine with turbofan engines.
3. The data of overhaul hours of turbofan engines is so outdated. AL-31F is 1500 hours 13 years ago.(TBO, not Mean time between overhaul)

https://www.flightglobal.com/military-engines-russia/73364.article
Salyut-produced AL-31 powerplants are now qualified for a 1,500h time between overhauls (TBO) in 2007.

I don't want to slander anyone, but sorry to say Turkey is quite new to Engine. Turkey need at least decades to catch up.

The figures would need some update If they are really outdated but I received most figures from Wiki articles and Wiki revealed own figures by showing/quoting a source from 2008. At most idealistic scenarios, The Russian Al-31/41 series have a TBO around 1000-1500h and overall life time around 3000-4000h. In this source, It is stated that AL-41F(improved version of AL-31) has 1500h TBO and 4000h lifetime for exm. The Russian latest engines reach these figures in best scenarios. If We let the figures talk louder than our biasses, It seems Russian metallurgy lack behind than European engines developed around 20-25 years ago.

About Turkey, It is true that We are new in this field but We have qualified engineers transfered from abroad. Turkish institutes have great experiences and knowledge on some European and especially US engine programs. TEI itself is producing %70 of GE T700 (2000shp) turboshaft engines at present. 2500TAC equal to a figure around min 1000h TBO and Acc to TEI manager TEI TS-1500 will have min. 2500TAC but In final, We expect to reach 5000TAC in turbine core so serious investments have been done for metalurgy projects, especially on nickel coating, titanium alloy and blade cooling technologies. Indeed, We will see whether these figures will be reached. What TEI engineers are doing is pushing the limits of turbine blades (non-stop) at very high rpm figures while internal temperature of turbine is reaching 1700-1800 degrees on labratory scale. They have a trial roadway and they are following the steps in according to NATO standarts. If they didn't have anything worth to mention in their hands, They wouldn't have talked in that way with safe speeches about life of their turbine blades.

That's the sections that TEI reached knowledge on production processes. 01/2014, Red dots were the sections that TEI didn’t have capability to produce in 2014. All defficiencies have been closed with new manufacturing technics within 3 years.

 

[capricorn5192]

This year bro ! 1 year for engineering tests and T-629 will be ready for operations in 2021.

but it will also be tested it field?

 

[T-123456]

but it will also be tested it field?

Yes,all tests will be done.

 

[cabatli_53]

Heavy class attack helicopter

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

T-129 simulator

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[airmarshal]

Turks have a good mix of ambition and humility

There you said it! Turks are a great nation and they think like an independent nation. We dont.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

There you said it! Turks are a great nation and they think like an independent nation. We dont.

Surely you Pakistani brothers have it in your blood too. All it takes is a spark and some ambition...

 

[vi-va]

Morning shows the day....

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step...

Many a top engineer in the Turkish defense industries has had work experience at the R&D organizations of top Western defense companies, thanks to her NATO membership. For example, TEI Chief worked at GE’s Jet Engine R&D department for 10 years after earning his PhD from the Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute. When he was offered to work at a top secret NASA project, he immediately left for Turkey....

@cabatli_53
I agree, totally. Congratulation to Turkey and many other countries who can develop themselves. It's a single step for Turkey, and I agree it's a big step. As long as keep investing on this project R&D, I believe the heir of Ottoman won't disappoint your people.
For any countries who can make significant advanced weapon system, it's a great achievement. Cheers!

 

[Armchair]

It's a "Hail Mary" scenario for Turkey to field an attack helicopter in 1 year with an engine it will develop from no prior experience. This isn't likely to see the light of day.

Which is actually a good thing for 1.5 billion USD, a huge sum of money. One can think of doing a million other things with that money. If I were the COAS, this is what I would push:

1. The ultimate CAS aircraft in the world, designed over 10 years of testing in Afghanistan.

The aircraft is so rugged that it can operate from fields and can be maintained by a farmer with basic tools. The Su-25 right now is being sold for insanely low prices. Recent sales figures show each aircraft going for less than a million dollars.

The aircraft manufacturing plant in Georgia that builds these is sitting idle and has recently been privatized. Due to differences with Russia, they have shut down the plant. Tooling would be easy and cheap to acquire.

There are hundreds of airframes available that are mothballed. Across both Eastern Europe and Central Asia.

200 units of these with full MRO facilities and upgraded electronics, munitions and sensors would completely change the face of the Pakistan Army Aviation.

Let us imagine the cost of each unit is $2 million (with overhaul and upgrade). For $400 million you have an entire air force of these.

Now, what to do with the $1.1 billion left?

To keep pilots proficient and to create a second tier we buy 200 CJ-6s. We don't want to use the Su-25 intensely. Instead, the pilots will keep the vast majority of their flight hours from flying CJ-6s. This will save a ton of money on jet fuel and maintenance of the Su-25s. In a combination of simulators and CJ-6s, actual hours on the Su-25 could be reduced perhaps to 20-40 hours a year.

The CJ-6s could also be armed with MAM-L and Brimstone type munitions with a laser target designator and night vision, allowing them to play a support role for the PAA, as well as a recce role.

I have no idea how much CJ-6s cost but I would imagine they would be incredibly cheap as the Chinese are retiring these planes. They are old, all metal and have a radial engine. Meaning they can be rebuilt a million times at the least possible cost, and are incredibly cheap to keep operational.

 

[princefaisal]

Heavy class attack helicopter

Will be top of the line.

 

[cabatli_53]

@cabatli_53
I agree, totally. Congratulation to Turkey and many other countries who can develop themselves. It's a single step for Turkey, and I agree it's a big step. As long as keep investing on this project R&D, I believe the heir of Ottoman won't disappoint your people.
For any countries who can make significant advanced weapon system, it's a great achievement. Cheers!

One thing to talk is that engines have already been creating a grey zone between costumers and Turkish institutes so Turkish industry has established a strong and ambitious roadway to close this huge gap for our products.

Complete TS-1500 design

You know Gas turbine engine cores can be converted into other kinds to be integrated on fixed wing platforms. The most important thing to do is to develop a reliable and matured turbine core to proceed in this way. TEI gave the first signals of it in defence fair.

~58/60cm diameter class gas turbine engine TEI TS-1500: ~1600shp. When core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, Turbofan using TS-1500 core will generate a dry power up to 9000/9500lbf.

I suppose TS-3000 (3000shp) turboshaft engine is being developed with a 70cm diameter core turbine. When more powerful core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, It will generate a power up to 16500lbf. Afterburners will boost the thrust ratio up to 20000lbf level.

Take a look at core diameters of proven US and European engines !

• TurboMeca M88-4E (69,5cm inlet diameter): 20000lb (planned)
• F404-GE-102 (71cm diameter): 18000lbf
• F404-IN20 (71cm diameter): 19000lbf
• EJ-200 (80cm diameter): 20000lbf

TEI is seriously investing on national 9 stage compressor designs and proved their capabilities in labratory scale. All these are the other signals paving the way for larger national turbofan engines.

Other field that require less powerful and lighter gas turbine engines are the drones. Turkish authority has charged Bayraktar institute as sole source of drones and they are working on nezt generation drones (Akinci, MIUS) to be powered with turbofan and turboprop engines. In order to meet the power requirements of drones, Baykar institute formed a big joint venture called BlackSea Shield with Ukrainian MotorSich to develop turbine engines for next gen drones. First engine this JV institute is going to reveal will be a turboprop called AL-450T (750hp). This engine is based on Al-450 (450hp) turboprop that are used on Akinci drone prototypes at present. IP rights of AL-450T will belong to Blacksea shield. Armed Akinci will carry 2x AL-450T(750x2: 1500hp) in future.

MIUS (Jet powered unmanned fighter aircraft) program will be powered with Al-25TLT turbofan engine. (T) refers Turkish variant of engine so It is predicted that It will be more powerful than original variant (3790lb thrust) because original variant can’t give satisfactory results to accelerate 6/6,5t drone fuselage into 900km/h on air. This engine is also expected to be manufactured by JV institute called Blacksea Shield in Turkey.

 

[vi-va]

One thing to talk is that engines have already been creating a grey zone between costumers and Turkish institutes so Turkish industry has established a strong and ambitious roadway to close this huge gap for our products.

Complete TS-1500 design
View attachment 627653

You know Gas turbine engine cores can be converted into other kinds to be integrated on fixed wing platforms. The most important thing to do is to develop a reliable and matured turbine core to proceed in this way. TEI gave the first signals of it in defence fair.

~58/60cm diameter class gas turbine engine TEI TS-1500: ~1600shp. When core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, Turbofan using TS-1500 core will generate a dry power up to 9000/9500lbf.

I suppose TS-3000 (3000shp) turboshaft engine is being developed with a 70cm diameter core turbine. When more powerful core of this turboshaft was convered into a turbofan engine, It will generate a power up to 16500lbf. Afterburners will boost the thrust ratio up to 20000lbf level.

Take a look at core diameters of proven US and European engines !

• TurboMeca M88-4E (69,5cm inlet diameter): 20000lb (planned)
• F404-GE-102 (71cm diameter): 18000lbf
• F404-IN20 (71cm diameter): 19000lbf
• EJ-200 (80cm diameter): 20000lbf

TEI is seriously investing on national 9 stage compressor designs and proved their capabilities in labratory scale. All these are the other signals paving the way for larger national turbofan engines.

Other field that require less powerful and lighter gas turbine engines are the drones. Turkish authority has charged Bayraktar institute as sole source of drones and they are working on nezt generation drones (Akinci, MIUS) to be powered with turbofan and turboprop engines. In order to meet the power requirements of drones, Baykar institute formed a big joint venture called BlackSea Shield with Ukrainian MotorSich to develop turbine engines for next gen drones. First engine this JV institute is going to reveal will be a turboprop called AL-450T (750hp). This engine is based on Al-450 (450hp) turboprop that are used on Akinci drone prototypes at present. IP rights of AL-450T will belong to Blacksea shield. Armed Akinci will carry 2x AL-450T(750x2: 1500hp) in future.

MIUS (Jet powered unmanned fighter aircraft) program will be powered with Al-25TLT turbofan engine. (T) refers Turkish variant of engine so It is predicted that It will be more powerful than original variant (3790lb thrust) because original variant can’t give satisfactory results to accelerate 6/6,5t drone fuselage into 900km/h on air. This engine is also expected to be manufactured by JV institute called Blacksea Shield in Turkey.

Congratulation to Turkey and your intelligent engineers again!!!

An independent Turkey is in China's interest. An independent Turkey which can get rid of NATO influence is in China's interest.

Any country who can develop their own engine is a remarkable achievement!!! Salute to Turkey!!!

Technology perspective, engine core is the essential. From F-110 and AL-31, we knew the most important part is an engine core. Once you get a mature engine core, the rest will be much easier, and just a matter of time to make whole engine stable and mature.

Once an engine core is mature, then you can enlarge and shrink, to get a series of engine, it will not be easy, but much easier than developing a new engine from scrach.

I can see Turkey in on the way to get a mature engine core. Good luck, Bro.

 

[Bossman]

There you said it! Turks are a great nation and they think like an independent nation. We dont.

They were never colonized.

 

[ÇölKaplanı]

They were never colonized.

Well, they tried it for once but...

Best joke ever, right?

 

[khanasifm]

So t-129 with US engine and export ?? Not happening reason why would I like competition ? I would kill it

https://www.janes.com/article/95884/philippines-cleared-to-buy-apache-or-viper-attack-helos-from-us