Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Tank131]

As @FuturePAF comprehensively put it, there are many other issues to consider when declaring that PAF will go with radar a or b.

1. Weapons: beyond the a2a missiles, PAF has numerous strike weapons from glide bombs to ARM to AShM of chinese origin. Some are overcome by having other foreign options (MAR-1 ARM) while others have local counterparts (H2/H4, REKs) however, whatever the radar you must ensure proper munitions to be deployed with it which, if it is a european radar, means having 4 different supply chains for munitions (American for F-16, Chinese for block 1/2 JF-17, European for blk 3 and locally produced)

2. Other subsystems like ecm and eccm, dfrm, irst, hmd/s, and targeting pods all need to work with PAF weapons and the radar. You cannot get the grifo without making sure all of the above equipment is not only available to PAF, and affordable, but also will remain that way in times of conflict.

These are no small feet. If PAF DOES sort these things out and goes for the Grifo-E, then it would behoove them to get the LETRI LKF601E for the block 1s and 2s. Upgrade the weapons on all of these with PL-15, PL-10 Along with HMD/S. That enables you to quickly change your fighters over to more Chinese configuration on the fly in times of conflict in the event that europe embargoes PAFs weapons.

 

[ghazi52]

World Open Sailing Championship in Karachi from July 23

July 16, 2019

Pakistan Air Force will organise its 2nd Chief of the Air Staff International Open Sailing Championship-2019 in Karachi from 23rd of this month at PAF Korangi Creek.

Addressing a press conference in Karachi, Air Commodore Sabih Wali-ur-Rehman who is also President PAF Yacht Club said that as many as 16 countries including Pakistan Sailing Team have confirmed their participation with total 72 players including ladies/gents/optimist sailors would take part in the championship.

The championship will continue till 27th of this month.

 

[Tank131]

Kind of surprised that JF-17 is participating in exercises with USAF. The PAF must have significant confidence in it, especially if they are fielding it against F-15E. Beyond that, how cool is the pic if the F-4E sith the JF-17 taking off in the background!

 

[FuturePAF]

Kind of surprised that JF-17 is participating in exercises with USAF. The PAF must have significant confidence in it, especially if they are fielding it against F-15E. Beyond that, how cool is the pic if the F-4E sith the JF-17 taking off in the background!

More like Dissimilar Combat training to refine the design for future Blocks. The JF-17 is a decent light fighter, that needs a few tricks up its sleeve to punch above its weight, because all is fair in love and war.

The IAF SU-30MKI experience showed data-links matter, tactics matter, and a decent knowledge of all potential adversaries and yourself. Air Combat really makes true the odd adage by Sun Tzu

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

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PAF should at least equip some of the fleet with the Grifo-E radars, so PAF can participate in exercises with western equipped fighters without giving away the secrets of the Chinese radars.

 

[Tank131]

More like Dissimilar Combat training to refine the design for future Blocks. The JF-17 is a decent light fighter, that needs a few tricks up its sleeve to punch above its weight, because all is fair in love and war.

The IAF SU-30MKI experience showed data-links matter, tactics matter, and a decent knowledge of all potential adversaries and yourself. Air Combat really makes true the odd adage by Sun Tzu

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

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PAF should at least equip some of the fleet with the Grifo-E radars, so PAF can participate in exercises with western equipped fighters without giving away the secrets of the Chinese radars.

I dont disagree with equipping grifo on a sqn or 2, or even the entire block if the munitions and subsystem like DRFM, IRST, HMD/S etc arenall part of the package. Leonardo can deliver much of that but the munitions will require agreement from France and England in addition to Italy, and the IAF will also be operating Meteor on rafale so i doubt they will be too pleased if france agreed to the sale (which could endager rafales bid for an add on order)

 

[araz]

I dont disagree with equipping grifo on a sqn or 2, or even the entire block if the munitions and subsystem like DRFM, IRST, HMD/S etc arenall part of the package. Leonardo can deliver much of that but the munitions will require agreement from France and England in addition to Italy, and the IAF will also be operating Meteor on rafale so i doubt they will be too pleased if france agreed to the sale (which could endager rafales bid for an add on order)

The price will increase horrendously. Secondly will Leonardo actually be able to provide the whole system? and the missiles?
Multiple armaments mean more headache of storage.
However I agree the idea is a good one even as a tech demonstrator to other parties who have reservations about Chinese equipment.
A

 

[Tank131]

The price will increase horrendously. Secondly will Leonardo actually be able to provide the whole system? and the missiles?
Multiple armaments mean more headache of storage.
However I agree the idea is a good one even as a tech demonstrator to other parties who have reservations about Chinese equipment.
A

Which is exactly why I posted my original question regarding the actual likelihood that Leonardo could actually get the bid. If PAF is truly satisfied with chinese equipment and weapons, then personally, I dont thinkthere is much chance if any for the Grifo E. However if PAF is disappointed or dissatisfied with the performance of the KLJ-7 V2 or the SD-10, then Grifo has a good chance (expensive or not) but that will depend on them delivering on the other subsystems (which they can because they produce many of them in house) and the munitions (which is a more difficult task).

 

[fatman17]

PAF has a history of combining western suites on its Chinese origin aircraft. F6, F7 series and the retd A5s. F6 with the sidewinder was a lethal weapon against much superior aircraft. So why not continue that with the JF17, making it a more lethal aircraft.

 

[FuturePAF]

I dont disagree with equipping grifo on a sqn or 2, or even the entire block if the munitions and subsystem like DRFM, IRST, HMD/S etc arenall part of the package. Leonardo can deliver much of that but the munitions will require agreement from France and England in addition to Italy, and the IAF will also be operating Meteor on rafale so i doubt they will be too pleased if france agreed to the sale (which could endager rafales bid for an add on order)

In for a penny in for a pound. The Indians wont have any other choice. They don't want to buy the F-16 (because "Abhi's Mig got it") and don't want to depend on the Americans. They also don't want Russian aircraft because they know their limitations. So they have to go European.

We need advanced sub-systems. Hopefully we wont have to buy 18 Eurofighters to sweeten the deal to ensure it. Hopefully the J-10CE avionics have sensor fusion and an advanced enough AESA.

 

[aliyusuf]

Having two different set of avionics suite and AESA radars on an otherwise outwardly the same JF-17, may present problems for enemy EW-Jammers and counter measures.

 

[Tank131]

Having two different set of avionics suite and AESA radars on an otherwise outwardly the same JF-17, may present problems for enemy EW-Jammers and counter measures.

I dont think that will be the case. Whichever radar is chosen will likely equip the whole block. With that being said, im hoping the PAF will have the $$ and foresight to upgrade all existing block 1 and 2 aircraft with LKF601E and give them the same HMD/S with upgraded munitions (pl-15 and pl-10). That will bring them to near blk 3 status and keep PAFs foot in the chinese electronics sector in the event tgat relations with europe breakdown during a conflict with India and they suspend the sale of parts and munitions (as france did to Argentina) that will allow blk 3 aircraft to quickly have their radars switched over to chinese systems and equip Pl-15/10 from existing stocks ensuring continuous operation.

 

[Quwa]

Can we envision a senario where the Grifo-E would actually win the PAF tender for JF-17? My understanding is that unless italy or china capitulate on allowing the other access to their own equipment to carry out integration, its not going to happen. I dont get (with such a large order) why Leonardo wouldnt allow the PAC to get enough access to allow them to integrate the weapons themselves.

That being said do we know much about the Grifo E, its specs, how it compares to the Chinese AESAs or even RAVEN ES-05?

China/Italy/UK won't capitulate to sharing source codes.

If the Grifo-E wins the Block 3 tender, then it means that the PAF has secured a non-Chinese BVRAAM and AShM suite through Leonardo and MBDA. It can also point to the PAF working with a trusted 3rd party like South Africa or Turkey on their respective BVRAAM (Merlin and Marlin, respectively), but that'd be a stretch seeing how the PAF will often go for something that's available today than play around with prototyping et. al.

Basically, the PAF might be dangling the Block-3 to Leonardo as a means to get Leonardo (and the Italian and UK governments) to sell the MBDA Meteor. If you're going to have a world of confidence in the Block-3, then perhaps arming it with a known quantity like the Meteor will force the enemy to respect it.

BTW an embargo wouldn't be a major factor in war. The PAF will stock enough AAMs and AShMs for a wartime response regardless of whether they're from the West or China.

 

[Beethoven]

China/Italy/UK won't capitulate to sharing source codes.

If the Grifo-E wins the Block 3 tender, then it means that the PAF has secured a non-Chinese BVRAAM and AShM suite through Leonardo and MBDA. It can also point to the PAF working with a trusted 3rd party like South Africa or Turkey on their respective BVRAAM (Merlin and Marlin, respectively), but that'd be a stretch seeing how the PAF will often go for something that's available today than play around with prototyping et. al.

Basically, the PAF might be dangling the Block-3 to Leonardo as a means to get Leonardo (and the Italian and UK governments) to sell the MBDA Meteor. If you're going to have a world of confidence in the Block-3, then perhaps arming it with a known quantity like the Meteor will force the enemy to respect it.

BTW an embargo wouldn't be a major factor in war. The PAF will stock enough AAMs and AShMs for a wartime response regardless of whether they're from the West or China.

Wont that put us at a disadvantage....i mean the Indians are arming Rafales with Meteor which means they will have an idea about the BVRAAM Block 3 is going to field...

 

[Quwa]

Wont that put us at a disadvantage....i mean the Indians are arming Rafales with Meteor which means they will have an idea about the BVRAAM Block 3 is going to field....wont that put us at a disadvantage????

Sometimes the threat you understand is more serious than something that might or might not be as threatening.

 

[Beethoven]

Sometimes the threat you understand is more serious than something that might or might not be as threatening.

I still feel we should keep our abilities classified....giving ur enemy an idea about ur strength will provide him with the techniques to counter ur strength