Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[Ultima Thule]

Clearly says airforce police,if they haven't been given for free then it's a big waste of resources.

this is cute sarcasm/joke by @Windjammer bro

 

[RAMPAGE]

@messiach

Do you think it would be prudent and possible for PAC to design and develop a replacement for our C130 fleet in the near future?

 

[StormBreaker]

@messiach

Do you think it would be prudent and possible for PAC to design and develop a replacement for our C130 fleet in the near future?

No, simply not worth the money, time and investment just to procure some units and no export potential.

 

[messiach]

@messiach
Do you think it would be prudent and possible for PAC to design and develop a replacement for our C130 fleet in the near future?

Most certainly a turboprop hexa or quad stage turbine is much simpler to build. This is quite possible & we have some of the experise for that.

 

[Tank131]

Most certainly a turboprop hexa or quad stage turbine is much simpler to build. This is quite possible & we have some of the experise for that.

Maam, why undertake such an endeavor when you can either get more C-130 or more likely Y-9 is available? The Y-9 has better numbers (payload capacity and range) than C-130 and is cheaper. It is likley to be more cost effective than building an aircraft from scratch.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Most certainly a turboprop hexa or quad stage turbine is much simpler to build. This is quite possible & we have some of the experise for that.

I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?

Maam, why undertake such an endeavor when you can either get more C-130 or more likely Y-9 is available? The Y-9 has better numbers (payload capacity and range) than C-130 and is cheaper. It is likley to be more cost effective than building an aircraft from scratch.

This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.

@messiach @Oscar

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?

The PAF's requirements won't generate enough economies-of-scale to support such a program. So, for example, the KC-390's development costs are apparently around $2 billion US (in 2014, so a little higher today due to inflation). They're banking on export to help recoup those costs, otherwise, it's a massive expense (before the first plane).

The next best thing the PAF can do is partner with someone else and share the R&D costs while also combining orders to push economies-of-scale.

So, in this case, you could speak to Turkey or Ukraine on a joint-venture, ideally using a platform that is already working, and then upgrading it. This is what Turkey is doing by backing the An-188 (i.e., jet-powered An-70).

Perhaps the PAF could look at doing something similar, but with an upgraded propfan-powered An-70 (e.g., An-77) meant for hot-and-high conditions?

If not this, then you buy a new solution that's available for sale, like the KC-390, but in-exchange for being the top or 2nd largest customer, demand heavy offsets.

In this scenario, Embraer would spend 50%+ of the contract value in Pakistan, perhaps by investing in a new aero-structures manufacturing plant, final assembly site, depot-level MRO, etc.

 

[RAMPAGE]

The PAF's requirements won't generate enough economies-of-scale to support such a program. So, for example, the KC-390's development costs are apparently around $2 billion US (in 2014, so a little higher today due to inflation). They're banking on export to help recoup those costs, otherwise, it's a massive expense (before the first plane).

The next best thing the PAF can do is partner with someone else and share the R&D costs while also combining orders to push economies-of-scale.

So, in this case, you could speak to Turkey or Ukraine on a joint-venture, ideally using a platform that is already working, and then upgrading it. This is what Turkey is doing by backing the An-188 (i.e., jet-powered An-70).

Perhaps the PAF could look at doing something similar, but with an upgraded propfan-powered An-70 (e.g., An-77) meant for hot-and-high conditions?

If not this, then you buy a new solution that's available for sale, like the KC-390, but in-exchange for being the top or 2nd largest customer, demand heavy offsets.

In this scenario, Embraer would spend 50%+ of the contract value in Pakistan, perhaps by investing in a new aero-structures manufacturing plant, final assembly site, depot-level MRO, etc.

Yes, I have suggested a similar partnership before for the C130 replacement. Perhaps it would be better to partner with a JF-17 customer with deep pockets should we manage to find one. Are the Saudis interested in the BLK3?

 

[khanasifm]

Also interesting, since it is different to the one used on the PAF's JF-17. https://t.co/6T6qlV2MKw
View attachment 593204

Not sure what new these are dual racks which paf adopted on preference to other side by side dual racks gds-117

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yes, I have suggested a similar partnership before for the C130 replacement. Perhaps it would be better to partner with a JF-17 customer with deep pockets should we manage to find one. Are the Saudis interested in the BLK3?

No word on that front. Personally, I'm a fan of the An-70, so I'd be down for a new variant with better electronics (An-77).

 

[Tank131]

I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?


This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.

@messiach @Oscar

The reality is that Pakistan has limited resources and where it outs those resources is of significance. Putting the resources to produce 12 aircraft for PAF is a poor use of those resources when these types of aircraft typically serve for 3-4 decades. Foe such a project it is better to buy off the shelf. If you want to have some r&d or industrial development, get it with significant ToT to enable in house construction (rather than just assembly) and go from there. It doesnt make any sense to try to reinvent this wheel. Buy Y-9 with rights to develop. While expensive , it will save time and still be cheaper than starting from scratch. These major projects where you start from development phase is better for more strategic assets.

 

[RAMPAGE]

No word on that front. Personally, I'm a fan of the An-70, so I'd be down for a new variant with better electronics (An-77).

I am all for it if the amount of technology transfer is comparable to that of the JF-17 program. In time, I would like to see PAC producing commercial airliners.

The reality is that Pakistan has limited resources and where it outs those resources is of significance. Putting the resources to produce 12 aircraft for PAF is a poor use of those resources when these types of aircraft typically serve for 3-4 decades. Foe such a project it is better to buy off the shelf. If you want to have some r&d or industrial development, get it with significant ToT to enable in house construction (rather than just assembly) and go from there. It doesnt make any sense to try to reinvent this wheel. Buy Y-9 with rights to develop. While expensive , it will save time and still be cheaper than starting from scratch. These major projects where you start from development phase is better for more strategic assets.

Now you are just rephrasing the objections I already addressed in my previous reply.

 

[Tank131]

I am all for it if the amount of technology transfer is comparable to that of the JF-17 program. In time, I would like to see PAC producing commercial airliners.


Now you are just rephrasing the objections I already addressed in my previous reply.

Again, what strategic gain is it to develop this type of aircraft from scratch. Indont even think it needs inhouse production but can be acquired off the shelf. Spend your money on weapons, radars, fighter/strike aircraft, and other major weapons systems.it would be a different situation if Pakistan had Saudi level money or had no access to comparable aircrafy, but neither are true. Its not about not doing the project, rather picking the right projects which will be cost effective and fill strategic needs. It is like all things, based on the hierarchy of need. Get the bread and butter parts of the industry first by filling it with strategically important thinks, then you can worry about adding other pieces as the funds arise.

 

[StormBreaker]

I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?


This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.

@messiach @Oscar

ACM Sohail Aman did give hint of Aviation city developing passenger planes.

I was referring to a replacement for the aircraft itself, not merely the engine. Is it possible or desirable to create something like the Embraer KC390 - be it a turboprop or a turbofan aircraft?


This is precisely the disastrous thinking that has kept us from developing industry in Pakistan. Yes, it will be cheaper to import am off-the-shelf product, but it will lead to an economy utterly unable to compete with the rest of the world and with the additional deficit of economic production and trade imbalance. Is it cheaper for the consumer to buy a Japanese car? Yes, but it is absolutely crippling for an economy like ours to import such machinery instead of producing our own. Now you will probably say that our demand for cars does not compare to that of transport aircraft, and therefore my argument is incorrect. I would like to remind you that the industrial capacity produced by such projects is precisely what will lead to a decreased dependence on imported machinery that has destroyed our economy.

@messiach @Oscar

Why build something from scratch when your intended fleet is no more than 20 max ?
Plus, you can’t compete in the world for export since china will become more popular eventually in commercial aircrafts thanks to our riyal walay bhais.

This sort of project requires billions of dollars of budget just to develop a turbofan.

 

[fatman17]

Not sure what new these are dual racks which paf adopted on preference to other side by side dual racks gds-117

View attachment 593253

Always testing different options