Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[Mani2020]

MANI 2020./

I bet the day the AMERICANS snatched OBL entering PAK AIR SPACE the F16 deal did not look too sweet or indeed a good move on PAF.


the next big kick off THE F16 and other usa equipment will be sanctioned.

IS IT STIL A GREAT IDEA to have PAFs state of art fighter A USA ORIGIN.

if it was all about bang for back or USA technology rules then both F16/70 & F18S/H wud not have been ditched by the IAF.

paf will learn the hard way 2 "never trust the yanks"

Firstly the last few discussions we have were about US being more successful in selling f-16's rather than France .

Coming to your point now,before going for the new ones we already had f-16s so embargo or a case of embargo was always there. but purchasing 18 new ones made a sense because that was the only way we could have get our hands on latest american tech like JHMS, bvrs, etc etc and that deal also gave us a chance to sneak into the MLU deal which if we would have gone for any other platform wouldnot have been entertain atleast not the bvr missiles and that too 500 of them.

The reason for dropping the f-16s order from 72 to 18 was same that PAF knew about this embargo thing so they dropped the order and invested in FC-20 , The 18 f-16s more than anything else have given PAF 2 very important benefits a) the purchase of latest american weaponry b) a deep look inside the state of the art american tech, the experience and technological know how of which can be used in fc-20

so 18 f-16s played around for PAF quite a well , even if PAF wouldnot have acquired the new f16s the old ones were prone to embargo anyway

 

[Mani2020]

Mani,

What headache----we have had mirage 3 and 5---fantan 5's---F7's and F7 pg's and then F 16's and F16 blk 52's.

So you can have F16 blk 52 and mlu F16's---m2k9's Jf17---fc20.

M2K9's must not go to india----. Cut short the number of jf 17's----.

Dont forget that F-7PGs are not going to be retired soon so that will make it F7PG, Jf-17, FC-20, F-16 and Mirage-2000

As for india i don't think they will be going for m2k9s as they already have many options to play around like the still ongoing induction of mki, future mrca , LCA and then FGFA , apart from LCA rest of there aircrafts are or are going to be better than m2k9s, so i don't see india going for them , already there many deals are lingering around with price kept hiking due to inflation factor ,

 

[Mani2020]

Memebers here have been unfair to Mani and to an extent i agree with him.

UAE is not inducting Rafale today and decommissioning and offering its mirages for sale tomorrow. All that is some years down the road.
By the time the mirages come up for sale jf-17 would have become a very mature platform with PAF and in all probability PAF having finished the induction of of block-II and moving to block-III.
J-10 is already a very mature platform on account of its service with PLAAF for a no. of years. PLAAF has developed and employed full spectrum tactics for it. It also has a wide range of weapons. J-10B takes the J-10 further and on to a new level by removing the chinks and adding new and improved features. By the time the UAE mirages come up for sale a few years from now. J-10B too would have become a mature platform in PAF service.

So when u take the time frame into consideration for when the mirages will be avaliable for sale this whole discussion becomes pointless.

Thats the point they are not willing to understand , not only the induction period but also it will require PAF a lot of time to set infra-structure for them and then getting trained on them . For them (supporters of m-2000) JF-17 training and experience will require a lot of time but with mirage-2000 there is a magic which will make PAF learn all its pros and cons in one day . For them its like pilots waking up one morning and realising they have learned to fly mirage-2000 .

Even if today PAF agrees to buy mirage still it will be atleast 3-4 years down the road and then add the training, infrastructure and good flying hours to master the aircraft it will take you to a time span where jf-17s will already be matured enough

 

[Storm Force]

GOOD POINT FIELD MARSHAL & MANI re the timescale.

EVEN IF UAE signs for 69 rafael today (which is looking likely) the delivery and subsequent sale of the mirage2000-9 will not happen for 4 years minimum.

AND YOU CORRECT in assuming great strides in thunder & fc20 by then.

GOOD POINTS WELL DONE TO BOTH

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Even when the FC 20 comes out---the only mature part will be the air frame and the ejection seat-----other than that there would be a brand new engine----a brand new electronics package and a brand new BVR----so a totally new playbook to be written for that plane---.

As for the jf 17---even at its next maturest form---the blk2, won't be as capable as the BLK52 F16----in the similiar manner it would be behind the M2K9 as well----.

If time is of no consequence to pakistan and its air force ( and it doesnot seem likely ) then they need to focus more on the Fc20 than the JF 17----. They have already proved the point that they wanted to make.

One who shoots with PRECISION FROM THE FARTHEST DISTANCE and launches more missiles will have the advantage in the future BVR engagements.

A lots of weapons purchase is a psychological game----. It is not what you want---it is what your opponent is concerned about.

And Mani and others----SUDDENLY YOU PEOPLE WOKE UP TO THE TIME IT TAKES FOR INTEGRATION---till yesterday you people had no clue what it meant and now you have staked your claim on it.

 

[Mabs]

So,

Many a years ago---many many years ago---I dated this extremely beautiful german woman----she was a bit older than me----but what a woman she was----.

In beauty, she was a stunner----could stop the traffic on the road----but once you got to know her---she had an even much beautiful heart and soul that would surprise you---that how it was possible----so much beauty inside inspite of what was outside.

So---she would talk once a while---- when she was in her teens and was in love with a much older guy-----she wanted to marry him---but he was scared and insecure of the relationship---his age and her beauty-----. She met him many a years later----his wife had turned into a hag---his life was miserable---she saw him and told him---you could have had me and life would have been much better-----you people get my drift.

I will make this appeal on your behalf to all the PDF members to pitch in some money and buy you a Mirage at the very least. So what if the PAF didn't get it, we'll help you get that stunner woman.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Why are you always quick to jump onto the conclusion without having a proper look at what the post holds?
the 10 billion cost of Rafale includes just the aircraft and not any related equipment or spare parts
And next time don't bring this word "BS" for other's posts when you yourself have enough amount of "BS" in your own post

Too Bad you are wrong again. Read this and bite the dust off research is always Important, another BS claim gone down.

India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition

"India’s defense procurement process is definitely a game for the patient, and this competition has been no exception. The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) RFP caps a process that began in 2001, when the IAF sent out its request for information (RFI) for 126 jets. After delays lasting almost 2 years beyond the planned December 2005 issue date, India’s Ministry of Defence finally announced a formal Request for Proposal on Aug 28/07.

The RFP announcement estimated the program at 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), at a cost of Rs. 42,000 crores (about $10.24 billion as of the RFP date, or about $81.3 million per fighter). The 211-page document includes clauses for initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production, and life-time maintenance support for the aircraft. Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a ‘fly away’ condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. Some reports add an option for an additional 63-64 aircraft on the same terms, bringing the potential total to 190 aircraft."

This $10 billion deal would be a full package and complete life time support cost, just airframe cost? grapes are sour.
Thus my post have once again verified the information and proven you wrong. Initially it was around 8.3 Billion, later on $2 billion was added more this means more weapons and other equipment will be included so poof are your claims regarding MRCA. Don't bash india they might take a longer time to declare deals but they get the better ones you couldn't get anything thing better in operational form between 1988-2001 a wasteful 13 Years.

Lets do your maths regarding F-16s $167 million (167X18) for a complete package a single F-16 over the life time support and equipment, NO TOT, no other lucrative deals such as with indians that'll comes along purchasing those MRCA aesa equipped. So if hindustanis are getting per Typhoon or Rafale for even $150 Million they got the best deal of the millennium.

 

[Mani2020]

T

"

The RFP announcement estimated the program at 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), at a cost of Rs. 42,000 crores (about $10.24 billion as of the RFP date, or about $81.3 million per fighter). The 211-page document includes clauses for initial purchase, transfer of technology, licensed production, and life-time maintenance support for the aircraft. Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a ‘fly away’ condition, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. Some reports add an option for an additional 63-64 aircraft on the same terms, bringing the potential total to 190 aircraft."

This $10 billion deal would be a full package and complete life time support cost, just airframe cost? grapes are sour.
Thus my post have once again verified the information and proven you wrong. Initially it was around 8.3 Billion, later on $2 billion was added more this means more weapons and other equipment will be included so poof are your claims regarding MRCA. Don't bash india they might take a longer time to declare deals but they get the better ones you couldn't get anything thing better in operational form between 1988-2001 a wasteful 13 Years.
.

The things you underlined just mention an offset clause there is nowhere mentioned that all the things are included in the same price tag,

secondly there is nothing like spare parts such as engines , radars etc anywhere mentioned and for your kind info for weapons there is a separate deal like in case of f-16 we had a separate deal/contract for weapons


Thirdly as far as tot is , you can only get TOT if you are purchasing aircrafts in large numbers and not 18 of them , india got one coz they are going for 126 of them and not 18 like Pakistan, if Pakistan would have bought large numbers we would too have got TOT like in case of Turkey and Egypt

 

[Luftwaffe]

The things you underlined just mention an offset clause there is nowhere mentioned that all the things are included in the same price tag,

secondly there is nothing like spare parts such as engines , radars etc anywhere mentioned and for your kind info for weapons there is a separate deal like in case of f-16 we had a separate deal/contract for weapons


Thirdly as far as tot is , you can only get TOT if you are purchasing aircrafts in large numbers and not 18 of them , india got one coz they are going for 126 of them and not 18 like Pakistan, if Pakistan would have bought large numbers we would too have got TOT like in case of Turkey and Egypt

$2 Billion separate chipped in for that deal. Have you not read life time maintenance which implies spare are included other wise what does life time maintenance mean?. Sorry to inform you US will never give you TOT under any circumstance due to China.

So If India gets a single Typhoon or Rafale for $167 Million as PAF got a single F-16 for the price that includes a complete package and a life time maintenance and complete support they will get better bang for the buck.

I am aware PAF has lost all opportunities when it comes to Mirage 2000 not due to the Plane and its cost but due to poor decisions. Understand JF-17 and J-10 might be great but in time they will prove their worth for now they are newbies when it comes to Strike platform or platform like F-16s, requires much investment and time by trainers and pilots and complete engineering team, I am sure PAF pilots will master it as good as F-16s but a little far.

Sadly Pakistan did not get more then 18 and our Govt is to blame, where has the money been spent for the earth quake that money is gone unaccounted for, under the pretext of earth quake we've lost those extra F-16s money till today those earth quake affected population asks for help.

 

[MastanKhan]

I will make this appeal on your behalf to all the PDF members to pitch in some money and buy you a Mirage at the very least. So what if the PAF didn't get it, we'll help you get that stunner woman.

Sir,

Most of the members can't buy a pot to pi-ss in----they still living with their mommies and daddies----but very poor taste of participation in this discussion----.

This type of thinking is what we are trying to get away from----. Please participate in an intelligent manner not in a 'CLEVER' manner.

 

[PakShaheen79]

OMG!

Can't believe members are still having such a hot debate on this issue. Guys, like i said, these Mirages (or the ones from France in 1990's) have been a lost cause but get over it. For PAF, the most critical period is next 5 years and believe me it is not a long period for a nation. As far as Qatri Mirages is concerned, i think we must be rationalized in our approaches here. First of all, these are/were never offered to PAF. secondly, if PAF decide to procure them how long it would take. Certainly it is not a 2KG sugar bag in a shopping store! thirdly, with production line closed in France, How you people think PAF would able to get spares. PAF is maintaining fleet of Mirage III/V just because these two were purchased by many air forces around the world and when these air forces retired them PAF jumped in to get these planes to get spares but what about Mirage 2000 5/9? So, please calm down guys! WE certainly don't need these planes.

IAF factor is critical here indeed but when IAF is already is poised for getting Rafale (generations ahead of Mirages) what is the point for IAF to get these old planes? I realistically don't see IAF buying these planes. IAF is already a big challenge for PAF but good thing is the gap in (technology) has been closed in by PAF in last 4 years and in next 5 years, there would be very less difference between the two air forces in qualitative terms.

 

[MastanKhan]

OMG!

IAF is already a big challenge for PAF but good thing is the gap in (technology) has been closed in by PAF in last 4 years and in next 5 years, there would be very less difference between the two air forces in qualitative terms.

Mister,

Are you for real----or is it some kind of day dreaming----. Unlike the ground forces---in todays air force----either you have closed the gap or you have not-----. Are you saying the with 18 blk 52's you have closed some kind of gap------who teaches you things like that.

Don't you people feel embarrassed by talking non-sensical about misleading each other and outright lying to each other.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Mister,

Are you for real----or is it some kind of day dreaming----. Unlike the ground forces---in todays air force----either you have closed the gap or you have not-----. Are you saying the with 18 blk 52's you have closed some kind of gap------who teaches you things like that.

Don't you people feel embarrassed by talking non-sensical about misleading each other and outright lying to each other.

Mr.

No need to take my post out of context. When i said that PAF has closed in the technological gap i mean the capabilities not the specific system. What F-16 Block 52+ brings with them? BVR, All weather Day/Night strike capability etc. so does JF-17 and FC-20.

PAF has acquired AEW capability, BVR capability, IFR capability and so on.(Deny any of it if you can) It is you who brought F-16s here.to me it is just a platform which can be replaced by another platform anyday. Please learn to read what was written instead of interpreting the things via your own imaginations.

 

[rockstarIN]

OMG!
IAF factor is critical here indeed but when IAF is already is poised for getting Rafale (generations ahead of Mirages) what is the point for IAF to get these old planes? I realistically don't see IAF buying these planes. IAF is already a big challenge for PAF but good thing is the gap in (technology) has been closed in by PAF in last 4 years and in next 5 years, there would be very less difference between the two air forces in qualitative terms.

I do not think that If IAF was offered these planes they will reject it. We love this plane and know the capabilities so we went for the expensive rebuild. Otherwise why should we spend 2 billion for it? We could have buy at least 30-40 F-16s or Gripens with that money.

And about the quality gap between IAF & PAF, though PAF got BVRs we are going ahead with quality IMO.

By Selecting Rafale & EF, we make it sure that the future BVR weapon, Meteor, will reach us without least any technical glitches. (Apart from R-77 oppenent of the same range as Meteor from Russia)We have everything except Armraam.

BY delaying MMRCA we make sure that we get AESA in the MMRCAs.

Have to plan well in advance for the future security concerns.

 

[PakShaheen79]

I do not think that If IAF was offered these planes they will reject it. We love this plane and know the capabilities so we went for the expensive rebuild. Otherwise why should we spend 2 billion for it? We could have buy at least 30-40 F-16s or Gripens with that money.

And about the quality gap between IAF & PAF, though PAF got BVRs we are going ahead with quality IMO.

By Selecting Rafale & EF, we make it sure that the future BVR weapon, Meteor, will reach us without least any technical glitches. (Apart from R-77 oppenent of the same range as Meteor from Russia)We have everything except Armraam.

BY delaying MMRCA we make sure that we get AESA in the MMRCAs.

Have to plan well in advance for the future security concerns.

Yes, and PAF would remain ideal during all this time. With AIM-120C already in inventory, SD-10A/B would be part of PAF weapon. It has been discussed till death that in Indo-Pak scenario, almost all the BVR engagement would take place between 40-50 KM max. Then ever you heard about PL-21 and PL-10? Rafale /EF would not offer much in context of technology. AESA, yes but again, PAF is also looking for one. Super cruise would be the only thing PAF might lagging behind in the future but that one element would not able to impact the out come of any war. So, how you think IAF is technologically stronger than PAF?

As far as IAF buying Qatri Mirages, well there is a big IF in you own post and that is the reason why PAF didn't get them. Plus IAF has a lot more budget than PAF. for IAF it may not a big deal to acquire couple of squadrons of a plane for which production lines have been closed by the French but for Pakistan it could have derail strategic programs regarding JF-17 and FC-20. No doubt, these are awsome machines,but again were never offered to PAF.