Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[Mani2020]

It is a catch 22 situation----damned if you buy them and damned if you don't buy them-----. With the purchase of 69 m2k9---paf instantly gains at least 80% parity against its opponent without blinking an eye---. The opponent knows the capabilities of the m2k5---it is concerned about the capabilities of the m2k9---seriously concerned.

Ask yourself---if you could get 69 blk 52's at this price---would you go for it-----. PAF is in between a rock and a hard place---these choices are killing them.

Along with the price or funds issue there is another headache for PAF and that is the fighter types in the inventory, being an air force with much less resources , so many different fighter types would lead to a nightmare in maintenance , they have come so far with jf-17 program so they can't dump it now also this program has became the source of national pride and a first step towards indeginization that will be fruitful in future inshALLAH with the exports and domestic success .

On other hand i personally think that there is no chance to dump FC-20 neither we can afford to because its a much much capable fighter than m-2000 and coming without any strings and with tot , FC-20 in PAF for 5 years and that will be a deadly aircraft for enemy , FC-20 has really impressed the west .along with that dumping FC-20 after so much hard work it will not only waste the energy and resources we put into it but also portray a betrayal image of us to china as a result the next programs like j-2x will become fragile because of the lost trust of china

 

[Storm Force]

From A PAF point of view

HONEST OPINION how wud they feel IF IAF jumps in and blows $2 billion on the 69 mirage2000_9

ADD the 51 mirage2000-5 UPGRADES that have already and BANG 110 MIRAGE2000 5/9 COMPETENT battle proven 4 generation fighter guranteed to work with india having vast experience already

I agree with many it makes PERFECT sense for IAF to get these planes.

BUT THEY ARE NOT TOP OF THE LIST. wasted opportunity

 

[praful]

as per my limited knowledge -- the essence of MK's post is that if god forbid a war is broken out in next 2-3 years pakistan simply don't have any answers to IAF. f-17 , fc-20 are look good and promising for the future but they are in evolution stage right now. Vintage f-16 is no match of IAF.

 

[Luftwaffe]

All and all French were too hasty to jump from mirage-2000 to mirage-4000 and then to Rafale which lead to their failure. i bet you that mirage-2000 would have made more sales had its production line open , even the sales could have been more than Rafale , because Rafale is too expensive piece of gadget for developing countries to have and then the high up-gradation cost in future can lead to a disastrous situation for the customers. Any country who is not at war and don't have any badblood involved with its relationships with other countries can be more than satisfied with a f-16 block 60 or F-18 E/F in almost half of a price than the Rafale .
The problem with France is that they always focused the high end market without noticing the bright prospects of a middle end market ,Along with Rafale if they would have been offering another aircraft like mirage-2000 or for that matter aircraft with equivalent cost of f-16s they would have been at much ease .
US and Russia are the best desired markets for countries not only because of the influence but because they cover all ends of the market, you can get a mig-35 or su-35 in much lesser price than Rafale that too with AESA radar. For countries at peace its not much of a difference whether you have Rafale or su-35,mig-35, f-16 e/f or f-18 E/f

Mirage 2000/4000/Rafale are not and never failure, grapes are sour. How is rafale expensive when 126 of them are offered at 10 billion something to India.
Read this "Thales has announced that the production model AESA RBE2 radar with active electronically scanned array antenna has been validated on the Rafale omnirole combat aircraft. Following a comprehensive programme of flight tests conducted between September and December 2010 with the AESA RBE2 on the Rafale, Dassault Aviation confirmed that all aspects of the radar’s performance comply with the technical specifications of the ‘Roadmap’ contract, awarded by the French defence procurement agency (DGA).", So again grapes are sour. Rafale is advance enough it does not need high end upgrades for the third world for the next decade + it was short of AESA now it is getting it. Perhaps I should remind you what each F-16 has cost PAF do the maths $3.1 billion 18 F-16s. Neither is Mig-35 on sale it was offered to India, nor SU-35 has any customer there might be negotiations or offers nothing yet materialized so you are wrong again. Lets talk about Pakistan why are you mingling your self into who else is buying looking at F-16s per plane cost AESA should have come naturally redo the maths.

Please don't bring in production line BS it always there 249 French Mirages are with fully product support for the next few years until all of the mirages are replaced (Tornadoes, Mirages, have full support The Air Forces of RAF and French have now a different doctrine and reduced numbers.

 

[Xracer]

IAF. f-17 ooooooooooooosorry you meAn this

 

[MastanKhan]

as per my limited knowledge -- the essence of MK's post is that if god forbid a war is broken out in next 2-3 years pakistan simply don't have any answers to IAF. f-17 , fc-20 are look good and promising for the future but they are in evolution stage right now. Vintage f-16 is no match of IAF.

Praful,

Thanks for your post-----it is very difficult to make my brethren understand that concept----. PAF needs a fully developed aicraft with all accessories as of yesterday---to compete with iaf of today---when paf will get the full complement of jf17's and fc20's in full battle regalia----iaf would have moved onto another pleteau.

Paf has dug a very deep hole for itself----there is no coming out of it in the near future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Along with the price or funds issue there is another headache for PAF and that is the fighter types in the inventory, being an air force with much less resources , so many different fighter types would lead to a nightmare in maintenance , they have come so far with jf-17 program so they can't dump it now also this program has became the source of national pride and a first step towards indeginization that will be fruitful in future inshALLAH with the exports and domestic success .

On other hand i personally think that there is no chance to dump FC-20 neither we can afford to because its a much much capable fighter than m-2000 and coming without any strings and with tot , FC-20 in PAF for 5 years and that will be a deadly aircraft for enemy , FC-20 has really impressed the west .along with that dumping FC-20 after so much hard work it will not only waste the energy and resources we put into it but also portray a betrayal image of us to china as a result the next programs like j-2x will become fragile because of the lost trust of china

Mani,

What headache----we have had mirage 3 and 5---fantan 5's---F7's and F7 pg's and then F 16's and F16 blk 52's.

So you can have F16 blk 52 and mlu F16's---m2k9's Jf17---fc20.

M2K9's must not go to india----. Cut short the number of jf 17's----.

 

[Luftwaffe]

M2K9's must not go to india----. Cut short the number of jf 17's----.

It does makes sense 48-60 Mirage 2000-5/-9 and cut short the number of JFTs instead later on a couple of JFT mark or blocks squadrons can be upgraded to western standards, isn't that what PAF always say/want "prefer quality over quantity" here is the chance get these Mirages and upgrade limited number of squadrons (2) JFT blocks to something that has an equal or upper hand against IAF Fulcrums at least (when these fulcrums are upgraded).

 

[very]

In my opinion the JFT project is far better than to induct mirages from West. We shold continue to strive in research and upgrade our JF17 or J10Bz in the newer blocks . We shold compare our technology and standard and trust on our own sholders. Shold never depend or look forward towards the Western tech or development only just to increase or tech standard.

 

[rockstarIN]

=Mani2020;2112987]All and all French were too hasty to jump from mirage-2000 to mirage-4000 and then to Rafale which lead to their failure , i bet you that mirage-2000 would have made more sales had its production line open , even the sales could have been more than Rafale , because Rafale is too expensive piece of gadget for developing countries to have and then the high up-gradation cost in future can lead to a disastrous situation for the customers. Any country who is not at war and don't have any badblood involved with its relationships with other countries can be more than satisfied with a f-16 block 60 or F-18 E/F in almost half of a price than the Rafale .

French were never hasty to jumo into Rafale from Mirages, They started the new fighter programme around the same time when when Mirages flown for the first time. then they came out from Eurofighter programme in 1985 and started own rafale programme. Do not think the way USAF thinks, they have their own perceptions, funds and importantly aims. That is the way modern war strategists do their job, the weapons you make or visualise today will fight the war for you in future.

And I do not think that the early F-16s and early Mirages costs are too different, and I'm sure the new fighters are all expensive. Blk 52/F18s with AESA are no cheap.

The problem with France is that they always focused the high end market without noticing the bright prospects of a middle end market ,Along with Rafale if they would have been offering another aircraft like mirage-2000 or for that matter aircraft with equivalent cost of f-16s they would have been at much ease .

US and Russia are the best desired markets for countries not only because of the influence but because they cover all ends of the market, you can get a mig-35 or su-35 in much lesser price than Rafale that too with AESA radar. For countries at peace its not much of a difference whether you have Rafale or su-35,mig-35, f-16 e/f or f-18 E/f

Unlike China or Russia, France make jets for their own requirements and if their jet fit other AF's requirements, they can get the same. Whereas you can see Chinese's & Russian stuff is only for export markets. USA hardly makes jets for export purpose and remember Mig-35 & Su-35 may be less costly on flyaway basis, but if you look at life time costs there will be hardly any difference. And finally quality comes with a price.

 

[Mani2020]

Mirage 2000/4000/Rafale are not and never failure, grapes are sour. How is rafale expensive when 126 of them are offered at 10 billion something to India.
Read this "Thales has announced that the production model AESA RBE2 radar with active electronically scanned array antenna has been validated on the Rafale omnirole combat aircraft. Following a comprehensive programme of flight tests conducted between September and December 2010 with the AESA RBE2 on the Rafale, Dassault Aviation confirmed that all aspects of the radar’s performance comply with the technical specifications of the ‘Roadmap’ contract, awarded by the French defence procurement agency (DGA).", So again grapes are sour. Rafale is advance enough it does not need high end upgrades for the third world for the next decade + it was short of AESA now it is getting it. Perhaps I should remind you what each F-16 has cost PAF do the maths $3.1 billion 18 F-16s. Neither is Mig-35 on sale it was offered to India, nor SU-35 has any customer there might be negotiations or offers nothing yet materialized so you are wrong again. Lets talk about Pakistan why are you mingling your self into who else is buying looking at F-16s per plane cost AESA should have come naturally redo the maths.

Please don't bring in production line BS it always there 249 French Mirages are with fully product support for the next few years until all of the mirages are replaced (Tornadoes, Mirages, have full support The Air Forces of RAF and French have now a different doctrine and reduced numbers.

Why are you always quick to jump onto the conclusion without having a proper look at what the post holds?

the 10 billion cost of Rafale includes just the aircraft and not any related equipment or spare parts while the 36 f-16 c/d block 52 deal for Pakistan costed 3 billion and not 3.1 billion US dollars and the whole package in those 3 billions include hell alot of other equipment , like

7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft’s sides to give them extra range
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
1 Unit Level Trainer
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.


Now you do your math carefully ,

By going with your price tag of Rafale even there were news of F-35s offered to india at a stated price of around 65 million each ,but that was just for the aircraft ,there were other hell of things needed along with the basic gadget and that resulted to a fly away price of f-35 to be 122 milliuon US dollars for F-35A

And next time don't bring this word "BS" for other's posts when you yourself have enough amount of "BS" in your own post

The point is you are trying everything to prove m-2000 a winner by ignoring the real facts like you did above in case of pricing , so grapes are sour for you and not for anyone else

 

[GEMINI]

The planes are capable for sure. But their exact value from PAF point of view shall be known once we have the schedule of replacement. I dont think they shall be available even in 2013. IF that is the case then the idea" if the war hits us today or within two years " goes away. In three years i think we shall be comfortable enough with JF-17, with FC-20 entering the scene.
However if we consider them as a replacement for our naval support squadrons(old mirages) then it might work.

 

[Storm Force]

MANI 2020./

I bet the day the AMERICANS snatched OBL entering PAK AIR SPACE the F16 deal did not look too sweet or indeed a good move on PAF.


the next big kick off THE F16 and other usa equipment will be sanctioned.

IS IT STIL A GREAT IDEA to have PAFs state of art fighter A USA ORIGIN.

if it was all about bang for back or USA technology rules then both F16/70 & F18S/H wud not have been ditched by the IAF.

paf will learn the hard way 2 "never trust the yanks"

 

[Fieldmarshal]

Memebers here have been unfair to Mani and to an extent i agree with him.

UAE is not inducting Rafale today and decommissioning and offering its mirages for sale tomorrow. All that is some years down the road.
By the time the mirages come up for sale jf-17 would have become a very mature platform with PAF and in all probability PAF having finished the induction of of block-II and moving to block-III.
J-10 is already a very mature platform on account of its service with PLAAF for a no. of years. PLAAF has developed and employed full spectrum tactics for it. It also has a wide range of weapons. J-10B takes the J-10 further and on to a new level by removing the chinks and adding new and improved features. By the time the UAE mirages come up for sale a few years from now. J-10B too would have become a mature platform in PAF service.

So when u take the time frame into consideration for when the mirages will be avaliable for sale this whole discussion becomes pointless.

 

[Fieldmarshal]

double post