Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[Luftwaffe]

What about the maintenance issues with Russian or Chinese engines to be specific, are they as good as GE/Patt & Whitney, a big NO.

Biggest draw back of Chinese/Russian engines is their life, that in its self is high maintenance and not as reliable as western engines.

 

[Luftwaffe]

LW. even in the 80's, PAF/GoP were finding it difficult to come up with 'hard cash' upfront to make the down-payment for the 48 proposed a/c purchase which was reduced to 36 due to financial issues. then the US offered their FMS terms and the afghan invasion by the soviets killed the plans for good.

Then here again PAF blundered they should have ordered more F-16s during that era while they were good mutual friends with US during Soviet-Afghan War.

 

[SBD-3]

i think members got it all wrong ..

the thread starter actuall put a question mark to the content of the blog post indicating that A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 is pakistan or india !!

the orignal post puts Egypt, Pakistan and Iraq as potential buyers,I was the one who aruged that IAF may have a look at them.

 

[Luftwaffe]

India has a chance to replace many of Mig-27s with these mirages even in their current state and avionics they need no major upgrades for the next decade.

 

[PakShaheen79]

I think there is a serious communication gap is more evident here than anything else

To me;

1- Mirage-2000 was a real missed opportunity by PAF in the 1990's. Zardari's demand of commission caused us great deal. At that time, Pakistan air force was really desperate to counter Mig-29 and Su-27 threats. Entire national defence remained on a razor sharp edge for an entire decade before PAF took the initiative in 1997 to go ahead with JF-17. Still this missed opportunity is haunting us badly as PAF would have been in much better position with those planes.

2- On the other hand, with passage of every year and with progress in JF-17 and FC-20 programs, i think the impact is losing its intensity sharply. Though we are still in the wood while looking a short term future scenario but in long run i believe that PAF is heading towards right direction and let's hope current acquisition of F-16 Block 52 were the last major foreign procurement. PAF has achieved many capabilities during the last 3-4 years which were just dream few years back.

3- So, in future prospect, Mirage-2000 5/9 would not add much value to Pakistani defence. This deal is a lost opportunity in 1990's but by the end of 2010's the impact of this lost opportunity is going to vanish with newer squadrons of Thunders and FC-20 joing active service with PAF.

 

[fatman17]

Then here again PAF blundered they should have ordered more F-16s during that era while they were good mutual friends with US during Soviet-Afghan War.

they did. 40+11+60 = 111.

 

[SBD-3]

Then here again PAF blundered they should have ordered more F-16s during that era while they were good mutual friends with US during Soviet-Afghan War.

Come on yaar, they should have, if they had a time machine or at least a crystal ball with them which would have predicted what is going to happen. While as a policymaker, i would know that I may have volatile and naturally unstable relationships with another country, but for how long and to what extent can they go wrong, this is rather dictated by subsequent events. While there can alyways be unlimited ends, the scareness of means actually dictate the decision action. At that time, even these 48 F-16s clearly gave PAF the detterent they sought against numerical superiority of IAF. Btw here is a read on Mir-2000 scandal

The imposition of the Pressler embargo hit the Airforce the hardest because it was deprived of the hi-tech edge of F-16s that it had ordered in large numbers. Besides the air defence ground environment (ADGE) had become old and needed immediate improvement. At one stage $4 billion for purchase of forty Mirage 2000-V had been negotiated by the government with France, and the PAF was keen to acquire the weapon system though at a lower cost. The PAF wanted to negotiate a reduction in the price tag and the interest payments so that about $750 million could be saved to upgrade the ADGE. The acquisition of Mirage 2000-V, in the meanwhile, became a controversial issue and was subjected to adverse comments alleging incorrect choice of system, strain on the economy, and involvement of kickbacks. When the change in the government followed both the governments found that the state of the country’s economy was such that it could not afford the acquisition. Thus the PAF was once again left empty handed without a high tech weapon system. The fact that the Air Force operates in a medium that stretches over both land and sea; and that neither the Army nor the Navy can operate freely unless the skies are safe, seems to have been ignored when it came to distributing the funds available for defence.
The Pakistan Air Force - SOBIA NISAR

 

[Mani2020]

Mirage 2000 C = Interceptor role introduced in 1982.

Radar Doppler Impulse (RDI) built by Thales for the Mirage 2000C entered service in 1987.
It has a much improved range of about 150 km, and is linked to Matra Super 530D missiles, which are much improved compared to the older Super 530F. Look-down/shoot-down capabilities are much improved as well.

Mirage 2000-5

Improvements included the Thales TV/CT CLDP laser designator pod as well as the Thales multimode RDY (Radar Doppler Multitarget), which allows detection of up to 24 targets and the ability to simultaneously track 8 threats while guiding 4 MICA missiles to different targets. Updates to defensive systems included the ICMS 2 countermeasures suite and the Samir DDM missile warning system. ICMS 2 incorporates a receiver and associated signal processing system in the nose for detecting hostile missile command data links, and can be interfaced to a new programmable mission-planning and post-mission analysis ground system. Avionics were also updated, using a new Night vision-compatible glass cockpit layout borrowed from the Rafale, a dual-linked wide-angle Head-up display, and HOTAS controls.

Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2

Dassault further improved the Mirage 2000-5, creating the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2 which is currently the most advanced variant of the Mirage 2000. Enhancements to offensive systems included a datalink for the targeting of MICA ER missiles, the addition of the Damocles FLIR targeting pod, and a newer, stealthier Thales RDY-2 all-weather synthetic aperture radar with moving target indicator capability, which also grants the aircraft improved air-to-ground capability. The avionics were further updated with higher resolution color displays, an optional Topsight helmet-mounted display, and the addition of the Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) designed for the Rafale. A new Thales Totem 3000 inertial navigation system with ring laser gyroscope and GPS capability was added, providing much greater accuracy, higher reliability, and shorter alignment time than the older ULISS 52 navigation system which it replaced. Other upgrades included the addition of an on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) for the pilot and an ICMS 3 digital countermeasures suite.

Further planned upgrades will include Thales AIDA visual identification pod, a GPS receiver, MIDS datalink, new long-range sensors, and the Topsight E helmet-mounted display. Other technology developed for the Rafale will also be integrated into the Mirage 2000, including infrared and optical sensors for IFF and targeting.

Infact there were upgrades periodically in M2k, but not marketed well unlike F-16, block wise






I don't think there is any AESA programme going on for F-16s.They offered almost same version which UAE has. Also the last F-16 orders might be from Iraq. Here too you can sense the US soft power for weapon sale.



They were improving their weapon systems from Magic to Magic 2, Matra R 530 to Super Matra Super 530 and finally MICA series.

There is plenty of improvements in Radars, avionics, Targeting pods etc. etc.

F-16s were sold in thousands and can't compare the size of USAF and FrIF. USAF themselves using lots of F-16s.


T

Egyptians were received Matra BVRs.

I think santro's post has proved what i was saying in my posts prior that , so i don't think that now i need to repeat the same stuff , do i ?

 

[Mani2020]

The discussion has changed its course, We from initial acquiring have gone towards "IF We Had" those responsible must be dealt with there is no sparing no armed forces NRO. Non of you have yet answered about why PAF settled for inferior mig-21 variant and then settled for the even more inferior variant with-in why you people went back and fourth thrice, facts cannot be ignored.

Everything that F-16s has is also available for Mirage 2000 that is biased commentary to project Mirage 2000 as inferior, it has gone though several major upgrades, on technical basis Mirage 2000-5/9 are equal and as good as Block 52, indians are not fools and French are operating 12 squadrons.

I think you are too much emotionally charged up to pick up my post in the previous page ,here is what i said

"The fate of those people will be the same like many others who have done so much worst to this country but are wondering around freely , many example includes our politicians . Also the whole PAF can't be blamed for all this because of few culprits who committed that . Plus still it is to be known that whether there was also some political involvement in that deal or not, as far as i know and the common notion suggests that some people in political circles were asking for their chunk of share from the deal as a result the deal became too damn expensive.

It was similar to what emerged from Agosta-90B submarine deal when the public came to know about the extra money paid to political circles and many lives were lost in defending that , you must remember that incident where french engineers and few others were killed . usually french deals are very fragile with respect to the real money involved , on paper a mirage-2000 may be costing 30 million or so at that time or even less but after including the lobbying cost and the shares for corrupt officers or political people from both sides would have really hyped the price .

One can hardly conclude what was the real thing, coz most of us know what is apparent ,the reality may still be far far away .You are experienced enough to know how many things and faces work behind a political deal"

my this post you quoted above was in reply to rockstar and was completely relevant to what he pointed at

 

[Mani2020]

Mani,

Going in circles now---ain't we----The M2k9 is to complement the capabilities of the F16 blk52----at this stage under current conditions. The JF17 and FC20 are awhile away from being able to perform at 110% of their capabilities. Indeed some of the capabilities between the blk52 and the m2k9 maybe dissimiliar but are no less important.

M2K9 --- 70 in number in paf colors changes the balance of power in the region drastically----.

But now nothing can be done coz all funds are already directed towards il-78, saab-2000, zdk-03, MLUs, new f-16's, new missiles etc, jf-17 and fc-20 .now paf is dried up even they are facing difficulties to fund jf-17s induction , so from now going to mirage-2000 is bit un-realistic and sheer optimism . i think now we better learn to start living with what we have rather than what we could have

 

[rockstarIN]

the other issue with the Mirage-2000 series is the costly maintenance of these types. Taiwan is the case-in-point as well as Qatar. i am unaware of any issues arising with the Indians (IAF). maybe any indian forum member can comment but the IAF had plans for purchasing more than the 45 odd a/c in their inventory?

What I read from, Mirage-2000 is maintenance friendly and had a high sortie rate during Kargil. Two Mirage squadrons flew a total of 515 sorties during the period which prompt IAF to go for the expensive upgrade.

 

[SQ8]

It is not offered to PAF hence there is no point to relate AESA radars to PAF F-16s therefore we're on the same level Mirages -5/9.

I was talking generally in reference to rockstars post.

Current PAF all weather strike capability is based on 2(or is it 3??) Mirage VEF ROSE sq.. and 1 F-16 Block 52 squadron.
Although the other two F-16 Squadrons are capable of day/night operations .. however whether its current ATLIS pod is capable of night ops is questionable.

 

[rockstarIN]

I think santro's post has proved what i was saying in my posts prior that , so i don't think that now i need to repeat the same stuff , do i ?

This is what he said

None of the M2K upgrades make any mention of major structural changes or otherwise. .. the impression of a "new machine" has never been emphasized.

One product's 'impressions' vary person to person, perspective will be much different. For me if the capabilities are comparable, who cares whether it is constantly upgraded or at a go?

 

[MastanKhan]

But now nothing can be done coz all funds are already directed towards il-78, saab-2000, zdk-03, MLUs, new f-16's, new missiles etc, jf-17 and fc-20 .now paf is dried up even they are facing difficulties to fund jf-17s induction , so from now going to mirage-2000 is bit un-realistic and sheer optimism . i think now we better learn to start living with what we have rather than what we could have

It is a catch 22 situation----damned if you buy them and damned if you don't buy them-----. With the purchase of 69 m2k9---paf instantly gains at least 80% parity against its opponent without blinking an eye---. The opponent knows the capabilities of the m2k5---it is concerned about the capabilities of the m2k9---seriously concerned.

Ask yourself---if you could get 69 blk 52's at this price---would you go for it-----. PAF is in between a rock and a hard place---these choices are killing them.

 

[Mani2020]

This is what he said



One product's 'impressions' vary person to person, perspective will be much different. For me if the capabilities are comparable, who cares whether it is constantly upgraded or at a go?

All and all French were too hasty to jump from mirage-2000 to mirage-4000 and then to Rafale which lead to their failure , i bet you that mirage-2000 would have made more sales had its production line open , even the sales could have been more than Rafale , because Rafale is too expensive piece of gadget for developing countries to have and then the high up-gradation cost in future can lead to a disastrous situation for the customers. Any country who is not at war and don't have any badblood involved with its relationships with other countries can be more than satisfied with a f-16 block 60 or F-18 E/F in almost half of a price than the Rafale .

The problem with France is that they always focused the high end market without noticing the bright prospects of a middle end market ,Along with Rafale if they would have been offering another aircraft like mirage-2000 or for that matter aircraft with equivalent cost of f-16s they would have been at much ease .

US and Russia are the best desired markets for countries not only because of the influence but because they cover all ends of the market, you can get a mig-35 or su-35 in much lesser price than Rafale that too with AESA radar. For countries at peace its not much of a difference whether you have Rafale or su-35,mig-35, f-16 e/f or f-18 E/f