Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

[Storm Force]

I think the public has voted even at $20m each those 69 mirage2000 are deemed a unnecessary expense and dont bring enough to the table.

THERE seems a massive reliance on the very small fleet of F16s which is understable given the sucess of the AMERICANs in any air war.

BUT DONT EXPECT any where near the same support back up that israel gets during war time FOR PAF F16s. At best the USA will sanction both IAF AND PAF and withold spares AND AT WORST if they back india they will pass on sensitive information/data re the F16 FLEET OF THE PAF.

This is whjy some people feel over reliance on USA equipment is a dangerous scenario for pakistan. USA INDIA ties are growing stronger all the time.

 

[MastanKhan]

It is not offered to PAF hence there is no point to relate AESA radars to PAF F-16s therefore we're on the same level Mirages -5/9.

Hi,

That is what I was thinking------. Where did that aesa come from-----.

 

[Luftwaffe]

I guess to put it simple, the Mirage 2000-9 does not add any value to the PAF's fighter fleet which the JF17 and J10 cannot add. The addition of the Mirage 2000-9 to PAF's fighter fleet is going to be a waste of time and resources, and PAF has made the right call by steering clear of this aircraft.

The time relatively would be precisely half of your Thunders (hint Mirage III/V support team) inductions and 85% less then J-10B which will be reach Pakistan around 2014 and add up all the training of air and ground crew If you are going to train them similar to Isrealis. You don't need extra resources for Mirage 2000s, PAF had all the time from 1988 called the lost decade when your top brass were enjoying like Roman Empire..

Understand that Mirage 2000/-5/-9 are way maturer platform then Thunders, Mirage 2000-5/-9 is a proven strike platform and now termed multirole/omnirole.

 

[evldth]

I guess the mirages from France are not good for PAF . Yes PAF can induct the upgradation from France for its JF17 with western equipments etc.

 

[MastanKhan]

Lufwaffe,

Any aircraft that has been flying for 20 plus years is automatically a mature platform by default----a western aircraft by western standards and russian aircradfty on russian standards.

Our pakistani members don't realize and understand that the chinese induct aircraft engines before being completely certified----the chinese engines are in field certified on operational aircraft and squadrons.

I mean to say here we have american aircraft that are going throughequipment testing for years in and years out before being ready for deployment.

One of my colleagues---and indian by decent was dating this indian girl---ashe was an engineer working for lockheed I blieve----they were riding his 2005 or 05 infinity Q45----she stated---the gps unit in your car is more advanced than the one installed on the current F 16----possibly 3---4 years behind----he asked why---she replied all defence equipment has to be tested for minimally 2--3 years in the field before actual deployment---so once after it is designed---which takes time----then you test it under all kinds of conditions---to prove its worth.

All you guys talking big about the JF17 and FC20----at least 5 years time after deployment---when your pilots can fly them with some confodence against the seasoned iaf flyers-----. I would say----5 to 8 years time----full blooded to show some kind of operational strength.

 

[notorious_eagle]

The time relatively would be precisely half of your Thunders (hint Mirage III/V support team) inductions and 85% less then J-10B which will be reach Pakistan around 2014 and add up all the training of air and ground crew If you are going to train them similar to Isrealis. You don't need extra resources for Mirage 2000s, PAF had all the time from 1988 called the lost decade when your top brass were enjoying like Roman Empire..

And your telling me adding the Mirage2000's wouldn't take time and resources, PAF will have to completely retrain new crews and build new infrastructure to accommodate this airplane. Your hallucinating if you think this plane would be operational faster than the JF17's, we have built the JF17's from scratch thus we know this plane inside out.

Mirage 2000 is a completely different machine than Mirage III/V, i have no idea how you came up with the conclusion that our experience with operating the Mirage platform will automatically translate to the Mirage 2000. Most of PAF pilots and ground crews whom had hundreds of hours on Mirage 2000 have pretty much retired and others have joined UAE Air Force as full timers. The J10B will off course take more time to become operational than the Mirage 2000, but you cant possibly compare these two platforms. J10B is a much better and newer machine and in the long term would pay much higher dividends than the Mirage could ever do.

Lets not dwell on the past, it would have been such a stupid move by PAF to pay $100 million for each bird during the 90's, the French would have robbed us blind. Haven't you seen how they are robbing the Indians, charging them close to $40 million for the upgrade. During the 1990's money was needed for our missile program and our strategic planners made the right call by diverting money onto our missile programs, our missiles are far more lethal and a bigger threat to our enemies than 40 Mirage 2000's are.

Understand that Mirage 2000/-5/-9 are way maturer platform then Thunders, Mirage 2000-5/-9 is a proven strike platform and now termed multirole/omnirole.

The platform is pretty much static, it has reached the end of its stage and we cannot expect any improvement in its avionics. Compare that to JF17 and J10 which are new platforms and are being experimented with the latest avionics at less than half the cost. Besides, UAE is never going to sell these planes until they are replaced with another platform. Its going to be at least a decade before the UAE will replace these planes, by that time J10 and JF17 will already be mature and superior to the Mirage 2000 which is already reached the end of its life line.

All you guys talking big about the JF17 and FC20----at least 5 years time after deployment---when your pilots can fly them with some confodence against the seasoned iaf flyers-----. I would say----5 to 8 years time----full blooded to show some kind of operational strength.

Sir, the F16 was inducted into PAF in 1983. In less than a year our boys were flying it as if they had been flying it for decades, it was fully operational in less than a year and we were flying CAP missions on both our Eastern and Western borders. You will actually be surprised how proficient our boys are with the JF17, and it wont take our boys long to master the FC20 as it is going to be the pride of Pakistan Air Force.

 

[Zarvan]

Sir what is the capability of latest model of JF-17 which we China will give us those 50 and if some can tell me than we can see if we need Mirage 2000 or not ?

 

[Mech]

I remember gambit or Thomas mentioning the same in another thread. They release some of the tech in the civilian sector and evaluate the experience to work out all possible 'Kinks' in the system.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, the F16 was inducted into PAF in 1983. In less than a year our boys were flying it as if they had been flying it for decades, it was fully operational in less than a year and we were flying CAP missions on both our Eastern and Western borders. You will actually be surprised how proficient our boys are with the JF17, and it wont take our boys long to master the FC20 as it is going to be the pride of Pakistan Air Force.

Actually in 1983 I was in Ogden utah----close to hill air froce base---. Yes there was a lots of praise for pak pilots over the others---you know why----because of their fluency and grasp of english----one thing---and secondly the F 16 didnot have any technolgy in it----so the pak pilots learnt it fatser than other nationalities----.

Now comes the years 2000---the pak pilots go for training on the blk 52----guess what---ain't the same results---not very impressive either------. They had language problems this time----the pilots from other nations are english literate----.

And it wasn't in one year they mastered it----of all the batch there was one pak pilot at hill air force base----who excelled over the others and could take on any american pilots mano a mano----.

Now these current day pilots have to face technology----computers screens in front of them----a million times more complex machine than what their parents flew---. It ain't easy this time around.

 

[luckyyy]

i think members got it all wrong ..

the thread starter actuall put a question mark to the content of the blog post indicating that A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 is pakistan or india !!

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir what is the capability of latest model of JF-17 which we China will give us those 50 and if some can tell me than we can see if we need Mirage 2000 or not ?

It will be a good 3.5 gen aircraft----but it will have to go through some serious and tough integration period to show its true colors.

You see---when a new aircraft is put on the line---ie----put into operation----it has to go through integration----whatever the claim of fame of the equipment it brags about ---those items are hooked onto it and the planes and the planes are flown day in and day out continuously and the systems are checked for operational strengths and weaknesses----failures are fixed, repaired, weaknesses and strengths measured and slowly and gradually a PLAYBOOK is written aka operational manual----.

You see the F 16 in the 80's already had a written playbook----what it could do and what it could not----it was already operational and in service for a few years---so please don't dwell on what the american achieved----paf will have their moment to brag---but it will awhile from now.

And for those who brag about the PAf----guys---paf just barely got night flying capabilites a few years ago----how many aircraft does this force have that can fly in the night!

 

[Luftwaffe]

nortorious eagle, my friend I thought your friends and you said Mirage 2000 was not advanced and inferior to F-16s?

Refer to my post our current Mirage engineers and pilots can handle Mirage 2000-5/-9.

You are contradicting in your post you said PAF in less then a year started to fly a newest plane of its kind F-16s in 80s so how are telling me PAF would take ages to familiarize with Mirage 2000s. Any military pilot can switch on the airplane and fly it the thing is mastering it, maybe you don't know there are American flying clubs with people like you and me flying solo L-39 and Mig-17s ask MastanKhan.
You said "experience with operating the Mirage platform will automatically translate to the Mirage 2000" and this is the answer that is exactly what it is going to happen. Refer to all previous posts and thread related to Mirage 2000, PAF had money, who the fk would settle for F-7s acting like jugglers going back and fourth to France for Mirage 2000s 3timers. I'm sorry you have absolutely no idea about missile program funds they are separate. Who said Mirage 2000 variants have reach its end of life? If it had reached end of life are indians fked up to go for Mirage upgrades, or should i say F-7 variant of MIG-21 reached its end of life and PAF went for it, please read the history Mirage 2000 when it was inducted.

The first production example flew on 20 November 1982, and the aircraft went into operational service in November 1982 and Pakistan went on to test Mirage 2000s from 1986-88 and after and mate you call it end of life product?. Nevermind I can only refer you to any and all threads related to Mirages and you'll gain good information.

No one is rejecting JFT or FC-20 its as simple as that they are new and for next 8 years they'll be tested with new technologies they'll take time to master at best 2018 would be the time frame pilots handle it like F-16s. Man machine integration takes time its not windows or mac computers.

 

[fatman17]

the other issue with the Mirage-2000 series is the costly maintenance of these types. Taiwan is the case-in-point as well as Qatar. i am unaware of any issues arising with the Indians (IAF). maybe any indian forum member can comment but the IAF had plans for purchasing more than the 45 odd a/c in their inventory?

 

[fatman17]

nortorious eagle, my friend I thought your friends and you said Mirage 2000 was not advanced and inferior to F-16s?

Refer to my post our current Mirage engineers and pilots can handle Mirage 2000-5/-9.

You are contradicting in your post you said PAF in less then a year started to fly a newest plane of its kind F-16s in 80s so how are telling me PAF would take ages to familiarize with Mirage 2000s. Any military pilot can switch on the airplane and fly it the thing is mastering it, maybe you don't know there are American flying clubs with people like you and me flying solo L-39 and Mig-17s ask MastanKhan.
You said "experience with operating the Mirage platform will automatically translate to the Mirage 2000" and this is the answer that is exactly what it is going to happen. Refer to all previous posts and thread related to Mirage 2000, PAF had money, who the fk would settle for F-7s acting like jugglers going back and fourth to France for Mirage 2000s 3timers. I'm sorry you have absolutely no idea about missile program funds they are separate. Who said Mirage 2000 variants have reach its end of life? If it had reached end of life are indians fked up to go for Mirage upgrades, or should i say F-7 variant of MIG-21 reached its end of life and PAF went for it, please read the history Mirage 2000 when it was inducted.

The first production example flew on 20 November 1982, and the aircraft went into operational service in November 1982 and Pakistan went on to test Mirage 2000s from 1986-88 and after and mate you call it end of life product?. Nevermind I can only refer you to any and all threads related to Mirages and you'll gain good information.

No one is rejecting JFT or FC-20 its as simple as that they are new and for next 8 years they'll be tested with new technologies they'll take time to master at best 2018 would be the time frame pilots handle it like F-16s. Man machine integration takes time its not windows or mac computers.

LW. even in the 80's, PAF/GoP were finding it difficult to come up with 'hard cash' upfront to make the down-payment for the 48 proposed a/c purchase which was reduced to 36 due to financial issues. then the US offered their FMS terms and the afghan invasion by the soviets killed the plans for good.

 

[Janubaba]

It will be a good 3.5 gen aircraft----but it will have to go through some serious and tough integration period to show its true colors.

You see---when a new aircraft is put on the line---ie----put into operation----it has to go through integration----whatever the claim of fame of the equipment it brags about ---those items are hooked onto it and the planes and the planes are flown day in and day out continuously and the systems are checked for operational strengths and weaknesses----failures are fixed, repaired, weaknesses and strengths measured and slowly and gradually a PLAYBOOK is written aka operational manual----.

You see the F 16 in the 80's already had a written playbook----what it could do and what it could not----it was already operational and in service for a few years---so please don't dwell on what the american achieved----paf will have their moment to brag---but it will awhile from now.

And for those who brag about the PAf----guys---paf just barely got night flying capabilites a few years ago----how many aircraft does this force have that can fly in the night!

Than I think we should for sure go for Mirage 2000 because I think Mirage 2000 is 4 Generation Fighter