PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[SQ8]

Also depends on how many dogfights will go supersonic.. majority of fights that have occurred have stayed transonic.
TVC is a big help, there is no doubting that.. back when the F-22 was envisioned it was the best option to defeat anticipated opposition forces and allow for first shot. It was also envisioned that the stealth on the F-22 would couple with its TVC to allow for sudden surprise slash and dash attacks on unsuspecting enemy formations.
The same cannot be said for the high RCS sukhois, which are visible to the enemy from a large distance.. both electronically and visually.
Moreover, the current crop of missile systems with high pk's even at 60g maneuvering make the whole idea of TVC's less effective than previously thought.
The much maligned leak of the red flag brief also highlights a design flaw in the TVC used by the Russians. . it generates a lot more drag compared to the ones on the F-22.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Why JSF does not have TVC engine like F-22? Any idea technically. I am googling but no luck so far. I think Sir Gambit must have some indepth know how on this matter.

 

[Jon Snow]

Also depends on how many dogfights will go supersonic.. majority of fights that have occurred have stayed transonic.
TVC is a big help, there is no doubting that.. back when the F-22 was envisioned it was the best option to defeat anticipated opposition forces and allow for first shot. It was also envisioned that the stealth on the F-22 would couple with its TVC to allow for sudden surprise slash and dash attacks on unsuspecting enemy formations.
The same cannot be said for the high RCS sukhois, which are visible to the enemy from a large distance.. both electronically and visually.
Moreover, the current crop of missile systems with high pk's even at 60g maneuvering make the whole idea of TVC's less effective than previously thought.
The much maligned leak of the red flag brief also highlights a design flaw in the TVC used by the Russians. . it generates a lot more drag compared to the ones on the F-22.

MKI does indeed have a high RCS making it ineffective in hit and run scenarios - We'll be getting the PAK FA for that ( but not for some time yet). MKI has the TVC to help it in close quarters dogfights - for eg in India - Pak scenarios the likelihood of air-air combat being decided by dog fights is far more likely considering the close proximity of the two nations. TVC will enable the MKI to out turn its adversaries - of course nowadays escaping a good IR homing missile is all but impossible even for TVC enabled fighters - but the very same Red Flag video also states that the reason for switching to guns was that the MKI was jamming the missiles. So the main aim of the MKI will be to stop the missile using EW not TVC.
Ask any Pilot - for a good ol fashioned dogfight any of them would prefer a TVC enabled fighter over a conventional one.

 

[Jon Snow]

Why JSF does not have TVC engine like F-22? Any idea technically. I am googling but no luck so far. I think Sir Gambit must have some indepth know how on this matter.

JSF is not meant to ever enter into dogfights with other fighters - its supposed to blow them up at BVR ranges. some would call it a design flaw while others forward thinking and cost savings. The design of the aircraft is just not suited for dogfighting or extreme maneuvers. No reason for TVC if your fighter never gets into a turning fight with the enemy.

 

[PakShaheen79]

^^ But it still has a 22mm gun. how you would explain that If it only intends to be used in BVR engagements?

 

[foxbat]

^^ But it still has a 22mm gun. how you would explain that If it only intends to be used in BVR engagements?

All Pilots carry a side arm when they fly a combat mission.. Am sure they dont plan to shoot the enemy plane with a revolver either

 

[Roybot]

^^ But it still has a 22mm gun. how you would explain that If it only intends to be used in BVR engagements?

Why do soldiers have bayonets in their guns?

 

[PakShaheen79]

roy_gourav,foxbat:

Please read the discussion before posting, you may get some idea about the context of my question.

Thanks.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

Indian Mig-29 and Mirage-2k are BVR capable?

 

[SQ8]

MKI does indeed have a high RCS making it ineffective in hit and run scenarios - We'll be getting the PAK FA for that ( but not for some time yet). MKI has the TVC to help it in close quarters dogfights - for eg in India - Pak scenarios the likelihood of air-air combat being decided by dog fights is far more likely considering the close proximity of the two nations. TVC will enable the MKI to out turn its adversaries - of course nowadays escaping a good IR homing missile is all but impossible even for TVC enabled fighters - but the very same Red Flag video also states that the reason for switching to guns was that the MKI was jamming the missiles. So the main aim of the MKI will be to stop the missile using EW not TVC.
Ask any Pilot - for a good ol fashioned dogfight any of them would prefer a TVC enabled fighter over a conventional one.

Well.. guns only.. Id take the TVC anyday..wish it were such old school.

The MKI isnt just jamming EW, its jamming IR as well.. ..and punching out its decoys(which it has a large supply of).
However, its likely that the red flag scenario counted for earlier IR systems..and not the current crop of dual mode seekers.

 

[Emmie]

Why JSF does not have TVC engine like F-22? Any idea technically. I am googling but no luck so far. I think Sir Gambit must have some indepth know how on this matter.

TVC is used for two main purposes - One is to give aircraft vertical or short takeoff and landing ability and second is to give aircraft higher maneuverability. Purpose one serves best for carrier aircraft and JFT is not meant to be a carrier aircraft. Higher maneuverability is an edge during dogfights, JFT focuses more on BVR engagement than combat of maneuver at short range.

JFT was developed to be a cost effective aircraft, adding TVC factor in its design would have made it costly. Its BVR engagement ability handsomely nullify higher maneuverability of its opponent..

 

[Zabaniyah]

Indian Mig-29 and Mirage-2k are BVR capable?

Yes sir, they are.

 

[DARKY]

Try using TVC or even a super cruise with an operational load. TVCs look great on airshows though and the Russians got the indians suckered into buying them like the PakFa. The Americans researched TVC but do you wonder why they never operationalized the technology - becuase it did not make any operational sense. Its OK to be an idiot but not to walk around with a sign on your forehead saying "I am an Idiot".

The planes having a TVC nozzle on their engine can and would use TVC with an operational load and same with the supercruise... only a few planes such as Gripen (may be I am wrong here), and Rafael can't do supercruise with full operational load... on all hard points... they are sorting out the issue with a newer engine for Rafael...

F-22 Raptor with 2D TVC nozzle is under active service for USAF.

I wonder who tricked USAF to buy LM F-22 and who tricked RuAF to buy Su 35BM/PAK FA and Who is tricking PLAAF to invest its resources in J-20..... idiots they are and the whole world have the word written on their foreheads and only Pakistanis can see that perhaps..

 

[DARKY]

Hi,

TVC is only a very low speed maneuour----you cannot perform it at high speed---the pilot wil black out---or die from in internal organs being crushed due to extremely high G forces----. I very much doubt if it can be performed at 400---450 knots air speed----the speed suitable for dog fighting----.

Drive your car at 100 miles an hour and then slam hard on the breaks----see what you feel----does it feel your organs inside are moving----you haven't faced 1 G yet---maybe 3/4th of a G force----good physically fit pilots can stand around8--9 G's super super fit---I don't know----now bring in TV at 450 knots----which may produce about some 20G's----will kill the pilot as well as break the plane as well---most probably.

Has there been any documented proof of any SU30 doing THRUST VECTORING at 450 knots------it will be good to know.

Chogy and gambit can talk about it----and tell us about the G limiters on aircraft----.


HERE IS THE BOTTOMLINE---AND I DON'T KNOW WHY I DIDNOT THINK OF IT BEFORE------IF IAF HAD PERFORMED THIS THRUST VECTORING AT DOG FIGHTING SPEEDS OF 450 KNOTS / HOUR SUCCESSFULLY---THEY WOULD HAVE HAD VIDEOS TO SHOW OFF THE PLANE DOING ITS THING AS WELL THE SPEED GAUGE SHOWING THE AIR SPEED---and you guys would have posted it over here for our viewing.

And if you have done it---then more power to you.

Don't know why developed such ideas on TVC yes the G force is extreme when the throttle is pulled however the throttle is designed as such that the pilot experiences a similar amount of force while pulling it.... hence the chances that the pilot would faint or die becomes minimum.... (hope you understand my point)... besides in modern 4.5 gen. plane there's also a health monitoring system.

The Su 30MKI also contains several switches which are there to perform high G maneuvers at supersonic speeds using TVC and all pilot has to do is switch it on... and sit there with weapons control.... one of the two Su 30MKI crash in Jaisalmer(Rajasthan) happened because the rookie pilot pressed the switch by mistake (since it was behind his back now it has been changed to a position in front of the pilot and painted red in color.

 

[DARKY]

Silly statement? lol, do you guys even check the news before posting about how great the SU-30MKI is?

Yes, AESA > PESA.

No not really in all cases.

However, just because an aircraft has PESA does not necessarily mean it is superior than the one with AESA in a strict sense. There are many subsystems in an aircraft.

Usually an AESA with standard T/R Module Packing having the same aperture is a better Radar overall.
Yes there are and Su 30MKI has most of such subsystems.

TVC is overrated. Aerodynamic capabilities of a certain aircraft is not the most important factor in today's environment.

Flying and Flying better is still the most important Factor today.... If it were not to be there then why waste money on fancy designs and structures.... arm a B-52 with 100s of AAMs.

In real life, engagements take place at BVR ranges. The F-15 along with American money and technology has far more potential for technology development than that of the SU-30. The overall technology development overtime of the American F-15 outweighs far more than that of the Indian SU-30MKI.

Radar Refits: F-15s Looking for the AESA Edge
Boeing: Boeing F-15E Radar Modernization Program to Enter Production

And then, there is going to be the F-15 Silent Eagle.
PICTURES: Boeing unveils upgraded F-15 Silent Eagle with fifth-generation features

Don't understand why can't Su 30MKI do a BVR engagement equally good If not better when it has got Larger Radar(with longer range)...i.e. ESA with rear facing radars also... stand off weapons, AMRAAMs.... BVRAAM... ECM, Jammers (which have been credited with jamming F-15 radars of IDF-AF)...

About the scope of development... It does not take a genius to see which aircraft has more variants the Su 30 or the F-15... functioning in different airforces around the world and and under development in different aviation industries around the world.

Sorry to say, but the F-15 wins on this one over the MKI. Literally through and through.

Why sorry about that... you are posting the news about future upgrades on F-15 and future variants.. why leave Su 30 behind why being biased ??
When Su 30 is also having upgrades with Zhuk ASE Radar which is Active-ESA having around 1650+ T/R Modules, NIIP L-Band AESA on wing tips.. SAP-518, SAP-14 jammers and ECM.... higher thrust valued Al-31FNMK-3 with around 150+ KN full thrust etc...
Stand off weapons like K-100 Novator, Brahmos ASM... a newer generation R-77-PD with 120-160Km engagement range having ramjet propulsion... etc..