PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[Dazzler]

Such a silly statement.....

F-16 has got many variants.... and among all of them only SK one with AESA is some what electronically better than Su 30MKI in some aspects since the latter hosts a PESA... However Kinematically TVC and Canards offer a clear advantage over F-15 any day.

Just one thing, you guys really need a reality check as the way you overestimate MKI all the way will prove disastrous in the longer run. It is just a customized Indian variant having some performance improvements which make it good, but no the best by any stretch of imagination. F-15s and 16s are similarly customized by Yanks for different customers and this goes to country specific radar, EW, weapon package, datalinks, even engines. Ratheon and Northrop Grumman are arch rivals in this market.

 

[DARKY]

Yes yes you are right.. the USAF,USN, RAF, VVS, IDF-AF and a whole lot of established, experienced air forces are wrong ..

Oh im sure.. it would be ridiculous to think that the whole MKi canopy.. is not a transparent aluminum LCD that can project IFF data on it... at mach 2.


pulling 13 g.

USAF and USN are league apart from other world... they have dedicated electronic attack aircrafts, long range bombers, supersonic bombers, stealth bombers, CBVGs(Nuclear powered)...etc..etc..

And all the allies and NATO gets benefit... A long range aircraft like Su 30 have a typical mission of over 4-6 hours and can go upto 10 hours in some cases... and that can bring the one sitting in cockpit into serious stress specially on a multirole mission... try sitting for 5 hours without moving much you'll understand... While there are other spacious aircrafts in USAF and USN which does that role perfectly with a crew of at least two...

about orange part...

This isn't WWII
Su 30MKI can be Interlinked all the while and can use the Active and Passive sensor data from 4-5 other Su 30MKIs around the area hence scanning a total area equivallent to whole Punjab Province+NWFP in Pakistan.... which can be used to ambush, flank the opponent and deploy the weapon in desired position from the desired aircraft to obtain best possible results.

With Aim 9, R-73 and Python a visual contact will rarely happen...( Does PAF operate Aim 9L ??)

And yes supersonic is the theme of today.... the faster ones will come faster, release the weapon faster, destroy the enemy faster and escape faster all the while saving much more money and fuel... and time.

 

[Dazzler]

And yes supersonic is the theme of today.... the faster ones will come faster, release the weapon faster, destroy the enemy faster and escape faster all the while saving much more money and fuel... and time.

this sums up your fantasies.

 

[DARKY]

Just one thing, you guys really need a reality check as the way you overestimate MKI all the way will prove disastrous in the longer run. It is just a customized Indian variant having some performance improvements which make it good, but no the best by any stretch of imagination. F-15s and 16s are similarly customized by Yanks for different customers and this goes to country specific radar, EW, weapon package, datalinks, even engines. Ratheon and Northrop Grumman are arch rivals in this market.

Whats the overestimation here ??
Kinematically Su 30MKI can fly longer and have TVC and Canards which can beat any opponent in a dogfight If in capable hands.
And electronically the Electronically Scanned Array (ESA) BARS is a lot better than the mechanically scanned AN/APG-68(correct me with the name if wrong)... yes the Active-ESA of the SK F-15 should have better Scanning abilities but the range is still less..same with power.

---------- Post added at 04:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ----------

And yes supersonic is the theme of today.... the faster ones will come faster, release the weapon faster, destroy the enemy faster and escape faster all the while saving much more money and fuel... and time.

this sums up your fantasies.

All the newer fighter jets are coming with supercruse what do you have to say on this... should F-22, PAK FA, J-20, EF-2000, Rafale, Gripen manufacturers are only fantasizing and only you know whats real ??

 

[Dazzler]

Whats the overestimation here ??
Kinematically Su 30MKI can fly longer and have TVC and Canards which can beat any opponent in a dogfight If in capable hands.
And electronically the Electronically Scanned Array (ESA) BARS is a lot better than the mechanically scanned AN/APG-68(correct me with the name if wrong)... yes the Active-ESA of the SK F-15 should have better Scanning abilities but the range is still less..same with power.

---------- Post added at 04:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ----------



All the newer fighter jets are coming with supercruse what do you have to say on this... should F-22, PAK FA, J-20, EF-2000, Rafale, Gripen manufacturers are only fantasizing and only you know whats real ??

Absurd post, supercruise does not increase overall speed, rather to add an element of surprise by allowing supersonic speed without engaging after burner. Adding canards is no big deal it all depends upon specific flight dynamic requirements.

 

[JonAsad]

Hi-


Can any MOD do the obvious and change the title to PAF?-
cm on be proactive show some responsibility lame management-

 

[DARKY]

Absurd post, supercruise does not increase overall speed, rather to add an element of surprise by allowing supersonic speed without engaging after burner. Adding canards is no big deal it all depends upon specific flight dynamic requirements.

Supercruise allows the plane to fly in supersonic speeds all the while in an engagement which the jets without it cannot do.. a supercrusing fighter would always have the advantage as it can fly faster... the range of weapons increases.... less fuel is burnt.... the element of surprise comes with speed also... besides a little advantage the AB non appearance provides for a supercruising non STEALTH fighter... even the shape of the air-frame is designed as such that it can fly relatively faster to other aircrafts which are not in their category and perform the same role.

And what special flight dynamics do you find in EF2000, Su 30MKI, Su 35, Rafale, J-10, Gripen etc... (doesn't require much brain... beside you're already genius)

 

[Bossman]

Whats the overestimation here ??
Kinematically Su 30MKI can fly longer and have TVC and Canards which can beat any opponent in a dogfight If in capable hands.
And electronically the Electronically Scanned Array (ESA) BARS is a lot better than the mechanically scanned AN/APG-68(correct me with the name if wrong)... yes the Active-ESA of the SK F-15 should have better Scanning abilities but the range is still less..same with power.

---------- Post added at 04:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:57 AM ----------



All the newer fighter jets are coming with supercruse what do you have to say on this... should F-22, PAK FA, J-20, EF-2000, Rafale, Gripen manufacturers are only fantasizing and only you know whats real ??

Try using TVC or even a super cruise with an operational load. TVCs look great on airshows though and the Russians got the indians suckered into buying them like the PakFa. The Americans researched TVC but do you wonder why they never operationalized the technology - becuase it did not make any operational sense. Its OK to be an idiot but not to walk around with a sign on your forehead saying "I am an Idiot".

 

[manojb]

Try using TVC or even a super cruise with an operational load. .

Isnt this applies all manouver? like steep turns, half rolls, turns

 

[MastanKhan]

Isnt this applies all manouver? like steep turns, half rolls, turns

Hi,

TVC is only a very low speed maneuour----you cannot perform it at high speed---the pilot wil black out---or die from in internal organs being crushed due to extremely high G forces----. I very much doubt if it can be performed at 400---450 knots air speed----the speed suitable for dog fighting----.

Drive your car at 100 miles an hour and then slam hard on the breaks----see what you feel----does it feel your organs inside are moving----you haven't faced 1 G yet---maybe 3/4th of a G force----good physically fit pilots can stand around8--9 G's super super fit---I don't know----now bring in TV at 450 knots----which may produce about some 20G's----will kill the pilot as well as break the plane as well---most probably.

Has there been any documented proof of any SU30 doing THRUST VECTORING at 450 knots------it will be good to know.

Chogy and gambit can talk about it----and tell us about the G limiters on aircraft----.


HERE IS THE BOTTOMLINE---AND I DON'T KNOW WHY I DIDNOT THINK OF IT BEFORE------IF IAF HAD PERFORMED THIS THRUST VECTORING AT DOG FIGHTING SPEEDS OF 450 KNOTS / HOUR SUCCESSFULLY---THEY WOULD HAVE HAD VIDEOS TO SHOW OFF THE PLANE DOING ITS THING AS WELL THE SPEED GAUGE SHOWING THE AIR SPEED---and you guys would have posted it over here for our viewing.

And if you have done it---then more power to you.

 

[rockstarIN]

HERE IS THE BOTTOMLINE---AND I DON'T KNOW WHY I DIDNOT THINK OF IT BEFORE------IF IAF HAD PERFORMED THIS THRUST VECTORING AT DOG FIGHTING SPEEDS OF 450 KNOTS / HOUR SUCCESSFULLY---THEY WOULD HAVE HAD VIDEOS TO SHOW OFF THE PLANE DOING ITS THING AS WELL THE SPEED GAUGE SHOWING THE AIR SPEED---and you guys would have posted it over here for our viewing.

MK,

I'm not so sure but I read somewhere ---an interview with Singapore air force F-16 pilot, where he mentioned during WVR exercises MKIs employing TVC in decent speed in dog fights.

If TVC is so redundant, then why did Americans added it in F-22? may be Gambit or Chogy can answer it.

 

[PakShaheen79]

All I know is that TVC above mach 1 does not add any help in maneuverability. Low speed maneuvers in WVR is another thing. As we know that MKI's TVC are 2D so to me there basic purpose is to help in take-offs and shortening the landing distance. This is my personal thinking. A more experienced member can elaborate the impact of TVC on pilot and air craft in more detail.

 

[Zabaniyah]

Such a silly statement.....

F-16 has got many variants.... and among all of them only SK one with AESA is some what electronically better than Su 30MKI in some aspects since the latter hosts a PESA... However Kinematically TVC and Canards offer a clear advantage over F-15 any day.

Silly statement? lol, do you guys even check the news before posting about how great the SU-30MKI is?

Yes, AESA > PESA.

However, just because an aircraft has PESA does not necessarily mean it is superior than the one with AESA in a strict sense. There are many subsystems in an aircraft.

TVC is overrated. Aerodynamic capabilities of a certain aircraft is not the most important factor in today's environment.

In real life, engagements take place at BVR ranges. The F-15 along with American money and technology has far more potential for technology development than that of the SU-30. The overall technology development overtime of the American F-15 outweighs far more than that of the Indian SU-30MKI.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f-15s-looking-for-the-aesa-edge-04044/
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1941

And then, there is going to be the F-15 Silent Eagle.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...15-silent-eagle-with-fifth-generation-323962/

Sorry to say, but the F-15 wins on this one over the MKI. Literally through and through.

 

[Jon Snow]

Hi,

TVC is only a very low speed maneuour----you cannot perform it at high speed---the pilot wil black out---or die from in internal organs being crushed due to extremely high G forces----. I very much doubt if it can be performed at 400---450 knots air speed----the speed suitable for dog fighting----.

Drive your car at 100 miles an hour and then slam hard on the breaks----see what you feel----does it feel your organs inside are moving----you haven't faced 1 G yet---maybe 3/4th of a G force----good physically fit pilots can stand around8--9 G's super super fit---I don't know----now bring in TV at 450 knots----which may produce about some 20G's----will kill the pilot as well as break the plane as well---most probably.

Has there been any documented proof of any SU30 doing THRUST VECTORING at 450 knots------it will be good to know.

Chogy and gambit can talk about it----and tell us about the G limiters on aircraft----.


HERE IS THE BOTTOMLINE---AND I DON'T KNOW WHY I DIDNOT THINK OF IT BEFORE------IF IAF HAD PERFORMED THIS THRUST VECTORING AT DOG FIGHTING SPEEDS OF 450 KNOTS / HOUR SUCCESSFULLY---THEY WOULD HAVE HAD VIDEOS TO SHOW OFF THE PLANE DOING ITS THING AS WELL THE SPEED GAUGE SHOWING THE AIR SPEED---and you guys would have posted it over here for our viewing.

And if you have done it---then more power to you.

dont know about the mki but the the f 22 raptor apparently uses its tvc at high speeds - the principle should also apply to the su 30.
Carlo Kopp interviews F-22 Chief Test Pilot, Paul Metz


Kopp:

There is some debate in the fighter community about the relevance of thrust-vectoring in this day and age of Helmet Mounted Displays and 4th Generation heaters. What advantages do you see in having thrust vectoring, and how does it influence both instantaneous and sustained turning performance in the F-22A?

Metz:

Thrust-vectoring is often thought of in terms of the classic 'dogfight' where one aircraft is trying to out-turn his opponent at ever decreasing airspeeds. Whether a pilot should ever engage in these slow speed fights is a matter that is hotly debated within the fighter pilot community. Certainly, there is general agreement that it is best to not get slow - ever. With the advent of the helmet mounted sight, 4th generation heat seeking, off-boresight missiles the slow dogfight becomes even more dangerous. 'To slow or not to slow' are questions of tactics and best left to the expert fighter pilots of the future. The F-22's thrust-vectoring can provide remarkable nose pointing agility should the fighter pilot choose to use it. What is not widely known is that thrust-vectoring plays a big role in high speed, supersonic maneuvering. All aircraft experience a loss of control effectiveness at supersonic speeds. To generate the same maneuver supersonically as subsonically, the controls must be deflected further. This, in turn, results in a big increase in supersonic trim drag and a subsequent loss in acceleration and turn performance. The F-22 offsets this trim drag, not with the horizontal tails, which is the classic approach, but with the thrust vectoring. With a negligible change in forward thrust, the F-22 continues to have relatively low drag at supersonic maneuvering speed. . But drag is only part of the advantage gained from thrust vectoring. By using the thrust vector for pitch control during maneuvers the horizontal tails are free to be used to roll the airplane during the slow speed fight. This significantly increases roll performance and, in turn, point-and-shoot capability. This is one of the areas that really jumps out to us when we fly with the F-16 and F-15. The turn capability of the F-22 at high altitudes and high speeds is markedly superior to these older generation aircraft. I would hate to face a Raptor in a dogfight under these conditions.

 

[Jon Snow]

Try using TVC or even a super cruise with an operational load. TVCs look great on airshows though and the Russians got the indians suckered into buying them like the PakFa. The Americans researched TVC but do you wonder why they never operationalized the technology - becuase it did not make any operational sense. Its OK to be an idiot but not to walk around with a sign on your forehead saying "I am an Idiot".

Wrong... Ever heard of the F 22 Raptor??
Do a little reading before making ignorant posts
Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia