PAK pilots on Sukhoi's

[Irfan Baloch]

on the 300th post already, anyone tell me the relevance of current posts to the thread.

should we change the subject to SU-30 good or bad

on topic: it appears that PAF pilots did the right thing by flying thse aircrafts. well thats the impression I get from the Indian posts.

 

[Pfpilot]

PFPILOT.

Re your comment SU30MKI big rcs. IT also has a massive aperture on its bars pesa radar. Pesa technology means faster scanning and processing. ONCE you combine a massive APERTURE/radius of scanning with a faster processing of data BY THE PESA RADARS the SU30MKI pilot will see you first regardless of its RCS. or you havng a smaller RCS.

TrACKING range on SU30MKI is excellent and the nos and variety of BVR and WVR missles with different seekers is very difficult to fight off.

IMAGINE a su30mki firing 4 missles at the same time " yes the su30mki can fire in four missles one go" and they will have different seekers ie both active and semi active..

AND STILL HAVE 10 LEFT if the 4 dont get first.

IMO against any NON AESA eqiUpped opponent the SU30MKI HAS THE CLEAR ADVANTAGE. and this has been confirmed in many forums accross the world including F16 NET .COM which includes x falcon pilots.

SIZE means bigger jammers more EW suites and bigger more powerful radars.

one SU30MKI Does the same job as 2 F16 or 2 mirages. over twice the combat radius

That's not the point I was trying to make. I agree that the MKI has great range, payload and a powerful radar. My point was simply on it's TVC related capabilities. What some people are refusing to accept is that there are some inherent short comings with that concept. Its a great aircraft, but isn't perfect.
Since TVC is advantageous in short range combat, it is of great relevance that, if it ever gets in that situation, its massive size does become a problem.

My apologies Irfan Baloch, nothing gets Pakistanis and Indians going more than, even, a mention of sukhoi...be it of any nation.

 

[DARKY]

Darky.. I sent a message on Fb... he seemed busy but sent me a simple one liner.

"ask him about the X-31, delta wing, slender body.. yet would do circles around any flanker type"

X-31 can perform very high maneuvers at sub-sonic speeds what I am trying to talk of here is super-maneuverability which would be performed at supersonic speeds... and is an essential property of a 5th Gen. Fighter... one of 4-S as they say...

Would like to have his views on engine spacing in a PAK FA/Su 35 and a J-20/EF2000... in super-maneuverability aspect.
What I can presume that separation of engines would help balance the plane or make them recover faster than the ones with engines close by... even F-22A has some space between the engines unlike EF2000 and J-20.

 

[SQ8]

X-31 can perform very high maneuvers at sub-sonic speeds what I am trying to talk of here is super-maneuverability which would be performed at supersonic speeds... and is an essential property of a 5th Gen. Fighter... one of 4-S as they say...

Would like to have his views on engine spacing in a PAK FA/Su 35 and a J-20/EF2000... in super-maneuverability aspect.
What I can presume that separation of engines would help balance the plane or make them recover faster than the ones with engines close by... even F-22A has some space between the engines unlike EF2000 and J-20.

Umm.. Im not sure..in any case, he meant it for the stability part.
The F-22's engines arent that far apart.. I am not sure what you mean by separation here??

Here is the EF for comparison.. the engine spacing with respect to the fuselage is pretty much the same.

Neither is the spacing on the J-20 any different from the F-22.. Im sure a Chinese member can measure it out for you.
I still trust the poster I mentioned and his analysis of TVC.. It is useful.. but not by that much.

 

[DARKY]

Also, the post you read of Maj henderson.. in a many vs many fight.. the introduction of Helmet mounted sights and high G off boresight missiles has made maneuvering fairly redundant. It will be slash and dash, the first one to get missiles off and get out of the mix alive.

Very rightly slash and dash... however the plane with both JHMCS in 360 degree off boresight aswell as Super-maneuverability would have better chances to hit the non-supermaneuverable.... ones.

 

[SQ8]

Very rightly slash and dash... however the plane with both JHMCS in 360 degree off boresight aswell as Super-maneuverability would have better chances to hit the non-supermaneuverable.... ones.

As a second pass.. yes.
As craning your head when it weighs seven or eight times its usual isnt easy..
Being able to point your nose and shoot faster would make the difference.
But how much of a difference in an all out brawl of multiple jets??.. that only somebody who flys and fights can answer.
In any case.. its enough of dithering from the topic.

Which was PAF pilots on Sukhoi's and their learning experiences.

 

[DARKY]

Umm.. Im not sure..in any case, he meant it for the stability part.
The F-22's engines arent that far apart.. I am not sure what you mean by separation here??

Here is the EF for comparison.. the engine spacing with respect to the fuselage is pretty much the same.

Neither is the spacing on the J-20 any different from the F-22.. Im sure a Chinese member can measure it out for you.
I still trust the poster I mentioned and his analysis of TVC.. It is useful.. but not by that much.

I would try and find a decent explanation about the spacing part until then I leave it here....

About TVC as I have maintained... its an important aspect to have which not only enhances the maneuverability of a plane but adds many other advantages also... However It doesn't apply to all flying planes.... and depends on design and engine characteristics.

---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 PM ----------

As a second pass.. yes.
As craning your head when it weighs seven or eight times its usual isnt easy..
Being able to point your nose and shoot faster would make the difference.
But how much of a difference in an all out brawl of multiple jets??.. that only somebody who flys and fights can answer.
In any case.. its enough of dithering from the topic.

Which was PAF pilots on Sukhoi's and their learning experiences.

Off course... we went off topic... but had a meaningful discussion... unlike many other threads... will post again if I find any thing more on the super-maneuverability and the spacing part.

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------

on the 300th post already, anyone tell me the relevance of current posts to the thread.

should we change the subject to SU-30 good or bad

on topic: it appears that PAF pilots did the right thing by flying thse aircrafts. well thats the impression I get from the Indian posts.

Yes they did... however PLAAF flankers are very different from that which IAF flies....

 

[MastanKhan]

Supercruise have added a new aspect to air combat... If you remember the swing wing fighters like the F-14 and Mig 23 were a big success since they could come at very high speed hit the opponent and run away... and surprisingly Mig 23 had more success than Mig 29 which was a better plane and a generation ahead.

Supercruise not only runs the plane faster... It also extends the range of the missile being launched... the same missile which runs 80km from a non supercrusing plane would run 100km from a supercruising plane (since it would not require to burn a lot of fuel to gain speed)...

TVC helps in getting shorter turning time and radius hence in a classical gun fight It would be the TVC equipped plane which would come behind the non TVC one quiet often.

The pilot was a trainee and mistook the button for another one... since it was behind his back... the veterans have been and are using that button from 6-7 years without any trouble to themselves and the machinery...

TVC has got nothing to do with damaging the health of the plane rather it helps in having a longer life for the air frame and other control surfaces... the next gen planes that wuld be Un-manned would also have TVC same is the case with missiles... only the human factor is of concern here which cannot stand G-loads above 9g usually in the current G-suites...

No good airforce shows its best to the other airforce... its not only with USAF... Su 30 pilots here are notching above 200hrs/annum right from their 2nd or 3rd year... while the veterans go upto 300hrs annually... there has been diaper missions also when the pilots were asked to put on the astronaut diapers since a 10+ hour mission was to be performed.... they also have food switches where they can select a food item from a list and nourish themselves on a long endurance mission.

Darky,

You guys are going around in circles-----bottomline----what is the max speed that the su 30 can activate the tvc, do the reverse 180 flip and the pilot can bear the G forces---and the plane does not tear apart----. That is simple physics.

To the other guy-----the underdogs never under perform---it was your first chance to show your stuff and you out did yourself---you wanted to show the americans that you are no less than the pakistanis or anyone else---they welcomed you with open arms and absorbed all that you had to give---.

When the americans admit that you have a better plane than them---means that they have analyzed what you got----here is how they look at you----on a scale of 1----to---10----they are a 10------. They assess at you at a 3---to---5 at max performance----exceptional 6---to---7. If you come within that range of 6--7, they will tell you that you are the superstars----the best thing that happened after vanilla ice cream and apple pie----. But they don't tell you that you are superstars only in your own minds----for they will come and get you and take you out in their own way---.

Remember the first gulf war---when the israelis wanted to strike iraqi targets---the u s had to stop them---for the israelis were not upto par with what the americans were doing and would bog the americans down----. Just think about that for a moment.

But---enough said-----you insist you have what it takes to take on the americans---then I say yes----you have what it takes to stand upto them---more power to you---I hope to see some fireworks to prove your point---.

 

[raavan]

Darky,

You guys are going around in circles-----bottomline----what is the max speed that the su 30 can activate the tvc, do the reverse 180 flip and the pilot can bear the G forces---and the plane does not tear apart----. That is simple physics.

To the other guy-----the underdogs never under perform---it was your first chance to show your stuff and you out did yourself---you wanted to show the americans that you are no less than the pakistanis or anyone else---they welcomed you with open arms and absorbed all that you had to give---.

When the americans admit that you have a better plane than them---means that they have analyzed what you got----here is how they look at you----on a scale of 1----to---10----they are a 10------. They assess at you at a 3---to---5 at max performance----exceptional 6---to---7. If you come within that range of 6--7, they will tell you that you are the superstars----the best thing that happened after vanilla ice cream and apple pie----. But they don't tell you that you are superstars only in your own minds----for they will come and get you and take you out in their own way---.

Remember the first gulf war---when the israelis wanted to strike iraqi targets---the u s had to stop them---for the israelis were not upto par with what the americans were doing and would bog the americans down----. Just think about that for a moment.

But---enough said-----you insist you have what it takes to take on the americans---then I say yes----you have what it takes to stand upto them---more power to you---I hope to see some fireworks to prove your point---.

this is an extremely valid point but do you think sir that this huge disparity will come down with India rapidly modernizing their air fleet

 

[gowthamraj]

Darky,

You guys are going around in circles-----bottomline----what is the max speed that the su 30 can activate the tvc, do the reverse 180 flip and the pilot can bear the G forces---and the plane does not tear apart----. That is simple physics.

To the other guy-----the underdogs never under perform---it was your first chance to show your stuff and you out did yourself---you wanted to show the americans that you are no less than the pakistanis or anyone else---they welcomed you with open arms and absorbed all that you had to give---.

When the americans admit that you have a better plane than them---means that they have analyzed what you got----here is how they look at you----on a scale of 1----to---10----they are a 10------. They assess at you at a 3---to---5 at max performance----exceptional 6---to---7. If you come within that range of 6--7, they will tell you that you are the superstars----the best thing that happened after vanilla ice cream and apple pie----. But they don't tell you that you are superstars only in your own minds----for they will come and get you and take you out in their own way---.

Remember the first gulf war---when the israelis wanted to strike iraqi targets---the u s had to stop them---for the israelis were not upto par with what the americans were doing and would bog the americans down----. Just think about that for a moment.

But---enough said-----you insist you have what it takes to take on the americans---then I say yes----you have what it takes to stand upto them---more power to you---I hope to see some fireworks to prove your point---.

Rightly said
as pointed by neighbour member" mki is a good plane".. YES offcourse
"But is it upto the hype created by us".... No

I worried by the comment from an IAF person who known to me... Actually he says it is much difficult to make this plane in air combat in time compared to other IAF aircrafts:/

 

[SQ8]

Rightly said
as pointed by neighbour member" mki is a good plane".. YES offcourse
"But is it upto the hype created by us".... No

I worried by the comment from an IAF person who known to me... Actually he says it is much difficult to make this plane in air combat in time compared to other IAF aircrafts:/

Apparently IAF pilots who have been on the Mirage 2000 still love their old steed better than the MKI.

 

[rockstarIN]

Darky,

You guys are going around in circles-----bottomline----what is the max speed that the su 30 can activate the tvc, do the reverse 180 flip and the pilot can bear the G forces---and the plane does not tear apart----. That is simple physics.

To the other guy-----the underdogs never under perform---it was your first chance to show your stuff and you out did yourself---you wanted to show the americans that you are no less than the pakistanis or anyone else---they welcomed you with open arms and absorbed all that you had to give---.

When the americans admit that you have a better plane than them---means that they have analyzed what you got----here is how they look at you----on a scale of 1----to---10----they are a 10------. They assess at you at a 3---to---5 at max performance----exceptional 6---to---7. If you come within that range of 6--7, they will tell you that you are the superstars----the best thing that happened after vanilla ice cream and apple pie----. But they don't tell you that you are superstars only in your own minds----for they will come and get you and take you out in their own way---.

Remember the first gulf war---when the israelis wanted to strike iraqi targets---the u s had to stop them---for the israelis were not upto par with what the americans were doing and would bog the americans down----. Just think about that for a moment.

But---enough said-----you insist you have what it takes to take on the americans---then I say yes----you have what it takes to stand upto them---more power to you---I hope to see some fireworks to prove your point---.

MK, They told us that we are 'super stars' and got better stuff than them..and you think we believed that? Are our planners/strategists are so dump? can't we 'analyze?'

 

[gowthamraj]

Apparently IAF pilots who have been on the Mirage 2000 still love their old steed better than the MKI.

exactly you put my words here .mirages are still the most realiable and trustable meachines in IAF.. but still there is an big delay in upgradation

 

[rockstarIN]

Apparently IAF pilots who have been on the Mirage 2000 still love their old steed better than the MKI.

Difference between Maintenance savvy Russian vs user-friendly western tech.

And off-course, love to go solo...hate to have a guy shouting at your 6 o'clock

 

[SQ8]

Difference between Maintenance savvy Russian vs user-friendly western tech.

And off-course, love to go solo...hate to have a guy shouting at your 6 o'clock

I think that only matters in training.
User friendliness is what matters, if half the time the jet needs to be at the shop.. its no use.
One of the experiences the PAF had with both Chinese and Russian tech was the problem with outdated switchology.
Pilots would get headaches trying to remember what switch is where.
Their experience with the F-16 made them request changes to every Chinese aircraft they purchased, even the F-7P cockpit is reorganized an color coded. The Chinese took that exp into the J-10 as well after learning from us.

I wonder why the MKI cockpit was shaped along the lines of the M2k??