PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[Manticore]

mirage rose is not 70s tech-- atleast in terms of avionics

same is the case with f16 blk52/mlu

 

[SQ8]

I don't know If China have started producing GaAs Transistor of adequate size in bulk (mass production)... unless they do that the costs will remain High... as far I know perhaps only US have such facilities.... and going by the living standards, we have been watching a continuous increase in labour costs in China in recent few years which is supposed to increase exponentially... after all they are the 2nd largest economy.

I cant comment on the first section, however.. the labor costs rising have not yet effected purchase prices for some equipment.
My own personal exp with purchases of electronic components from China has the change in price slight with respect to inflation for a component. Nothing drastic.

 

[abdulbarijan]

do you believe that by keeping few squadrons at chinese border we can take on mighty PLAAF. no way mate,

Be pragmatic my friend -- In case of a war with pak... PLAAF will have all the luxury to do whatever they want (ofcourse before we getting MCRA)

In present case we can't face both two front war-- so it doesn't make sense to keep few of our assets at eastern front

so ur saying just because you believe you cant do it the IAF will not bother to put any thing in the chinese border..
Im surprised rather disappointed..
and for the last time im not saying that China will directly come in to war..just the threat of it will force India to allocate some of its resources to cope with that threat

 

[majesticpankaj]

JF-17 II itself maybe cant but with the AWACS coverage,ground support and SAMS coverage can give any 4-4.5 generation a major run for its money any day.

We are doing it as we speak,JF-17 already has already replaced A-5's.

hmm same apllies for PAF then if your considering MMRCA as well then you should consider
JF-17 BLK-I,II and stealthy JFT
then the MLU upgrades
then also the FC-20 which Mr. pshamim believes has an increased initia order to 58 from the previous 36 and more obviously will be added afterwards considering what IAF is doing at the time..


Thats the difference,you boast about your new procurements and how IAF will be stronger,but then from outta no where some deal is done as a response from PAF side which then is much more of a threat then previously considered for example just consider JFT which was basically taken by some as a F-7 replacement,check what it turned out to be,it is better than F-16A/B which at the time was the best we had.
then take a look at J-10,while some thought that it was a mistake the JF-17 and that if China had offered PAF J-10 PAF should have gone for that instead of investing on JF-17,take a look at what that turned out to be ..PAF now getting FC-20's is confirmed just the quantity is unknown..whether we go for 36,58 or 150 is entirely up to PAF's requirements


for the last time im not saying china will come into war,just check what i have siad nearly 3 times in 3 posts..ok u shouldve checked out the response of China to USA after the OBL drama...
again that is speculation on ur part isn't it...

my dear friend -- how many times I have to remind you about the maturity of a platform ??

Jf-17 block2 , stealthy jf-17 and j10 b are not even out of the bag.. let them get operational

How will you feel If i show you the threat from LCA ??

You are assuming that suddenly and surprisingly PAF will get something very nasty -- it simply doesn't work that way.

we already have four well established platform that well in numbers along with aircraft carrier

But one last question if you don't mind pls answer if JF-17 is such a beast and at such a low price why can't PLAAF replace her mig series aircraft with this beast ? I am just curious to know

 

[SQ8]

Santro--

If I remembered currently you were having the discussion with Mastankhan on indo pak scenario and you did say that F-16 won't be able to make enough sorties because India because of spare part issues.

The point is F-16 has very limited capabilities against IAF and don't forget the resources we have -- it is like 3:1 vis a vis f16 and mki. also mki enjoys the longer legs

I recall that.. and I also mentioned that if the F-16's survive long enough..
it is an accepted fact by the F-16 community.. that they will have short life spans in a conflict.
Again.. you and some others from both sides including MastanKhan see it as F-16 vs MKI, JF-17 vs MMRCA..
I see it as operational doctrine vs operational doctrine, combined abilities vs combined abilities... I see the whole fighter.. not just his left biceps.

How is the longer range useful for engagement when your enemy sits less than ten minutes from you.
The longer range allows for greater loiter time.. and the ability to circumvent enemy defenses. something that will come into play.. but not too often.
Again, I would return to the MMRCA.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 PM ----------

my dear friend -- how many times I have to remind you about the maturity of a platform ??

Jf-17 block2 , stealthy jf-17 and j10 b are not even out of the bag.. let them get operational

How will you feel If i show you the threat from LCA ??

You are assuming that suddenly and surprisingly PAF will get something very nasty -- it simply doesn't work that way.

we already have four well established platform that well in numbers along with aircraft carrier

But one last question if you don't mind pls answer if JF-17 is such a beast and at such a low price why can't PLAAF replace her mig series aircraft with this beast ? I am just curious to know

Patience..did the PLAAF mention the J-20 from drawing board to prototype.. they dont beat the drums on their plans..

 

[abdulbarijan]

my dear friend -- how many times I have to remind you about the maturity of a platform ??

Jf-17 block2 , stealthy jf-17 and j10 b are not even out of the bag.. let them get operational

How will you feel If i show you the threat from LCA ??

Exactly,J-10's and JF-17's are not out of the bag yet but a platform which u referred to first (EF-2000) is it inducted in IAF??
It comes in 2015 by the time PAF will be operating FC-20's and JF-17 II's will be in NO.
And when did u guys made the decesion for MMRCA since u questioned about how JFT-II will do against EF-2000?

You are assuming that suddenly and surprisingly PAF will get something very nasty -- it simply doesn't work that way.

we already have four well established platform that well in numbers along with aircraft carrier

Im not exactly saying nasty but it will be enough to atleast keep us on a level that we can cope with IAF's threats..

But one last question if you don't mind pls answer if JF-17 is such a beast and at such a low price why can't PLAAF replace her mig series aircraft with this beast ? I am just curious to know

The same reason why Russians dont induct MKI's to replace Mig-25's
well the reason is stated time and again by the seniors ie they want WS-13 in there

 

[majesticpankaj]

I recall that.. and I also mentioned that if the F-16's survive long enough..
it is an accepted fact by the F-16 community.. that they will have short life spans in a conflict.
Again.. you and some others from both sides including MastanKhan see it as F-16 vs MKI, JF-17 vs MMRCA..
I see it as operational doctrine vs operational doctrine, combined abilities vs combined abilities... I see the whole fighter.. not just his left biceps.

How is the longer range useful for engagement when your enemy sits less than ten minutes from you.
The longer range allows for greater loiter time.. and the ability to circumvent enemy defenses. something that will come into play.. but not too often.
Again, I would return to the MMRCA.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 PM ----------



Patience..did the PLAAF mention the J-20 from drawing board to prototype.. they dont beat the drums on their plans..

U pointed a very valid point-- war can't be fought in isolation -- which will put you in more risk

But you didn't answer the number things the scenario would be of 3:1 -- how the F-16 will survive with strings attached ?

In a BVR combat long legs will be a game changer -- don't you think so ??

I am disappointed with your last line -- PLAAF didn't mention it but don't you think it would have known to all the military planners of the world. It was not in the cyberspace doesn't make it invisible to the planners. On that line IAF will also have her secrets procurement.

 

[majesticpankaj]

Exactly,J-10's and JF-17's are not out of the bag yet but a platform which u referred to first (EF-2000) is it inducted in IAF??
It comes in 2015 by the time PAF will be operating FC-20's and JF-17 II's will be in NO.


Im not exactly saying nasty but it will be enough to atleast keep us on a level that we can cope with IAF's threats..



The same reason why Russians dont induct MKI's to replace Mig-25's
well the reason is stated time and again by the seniors ie they want WS-13 in there

EF-2000 is operational my friend.. there is no speculation regarding her existence. I am not saying jf-17-2and jb-10 are not present they are but they are not operational.

that is we want to know -- what is that ?

Russian can't have MKIs because it is customized as per indian requirement. a lot of western equipment are there in MKI.

the reason you have mentioned is ridiculous -- they already ordered a lot of engines from russia. even j10 and j20 prototype are working on russian engine.

 

[DARKY]

Important point to consider:

In case of a indo-Pak war.... india will have to place its fighters on chinese border also!
Reasons:
1)Chinese may attack.
2)Chinese AF may send a few sorties just to threaten indians...
3)PAF may use Chinese airspace to attack important installations in NE of india.

Hence it iaf wouldnt place all its squadrons on indo-Pak border.Meaning PAF wouldnt place all the might of iaf! but india will always feel threatened... another advantage to PAF.


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So lets discuss the topic which is FC-20,JF-17 Blocks- MRCA for PAF.

Such a silly assumption Don't see why China will attack and endanger its position globally by inviting other big powers like NATO or Russia to spoil their hard earned economy.

Why would they send sorties when they would know that 4.5-4.75 gen. advanced aircrafts are already based at places like Tezpur, Barelly, Ambala, Agra, Hindon, Leh, Gorakhpur etc...

Which PAF plane has the capability to take off with adequate fuel and pay load from the airfields 5000m above the sea level ??... would remind you that planes like SH, F-16 block 60 etc... failed to do so in Leh during MMRCA evaluation.

 

[Secur]

The essence of my post was jf-17 can't stand against the established platform that IAF operates -- su 30 mki, mig 29. jaguars. mirage 2000. they are already established and battle proven. IAF has conducted a lot of exercises to develop the platform

Whatever you say , do not bring Jaguar from now on into your argument ... I am perfectly sure that you aren't even aware about the different kind of roles that aircrafts have to perform ... Jaguar is a ground attack plane which isn't designed to fight a multi role or fighter plane ...

The SEPECAT Jaguar is an Anglo-French jet ground attack aircraft, originally used by the British Royal Air Force and the French Armée de l'Air in the close air support and nuclear strike role, and still in service with several export customers, notably the Indian Air Force and the Royal Air Force of Oman.


Jaguar doesn't even stand a chance against F7 or the Mirage3/5 of PAF let alone JFT ... since being a ground attack aircraft it isn't designed to do so ... If the Mig Chief himself says that JFT is extremely close to MIG 29 then who are you to complain ? MIG 29 last time i checked , is an Russian aircraft and they know their aircraft better than anyone else ... Also i have explained , that long distances and other advantages of twin engined fighter are neutralized since PAF bases are located very close to the border and do not have to travel huge distance to engage their enemy ( Also remember that PAF has a defensive doctrine )... Unlike IAF , we dont have extremely large territories to defend ... About the development and maturity , JFT has been rigorously tested by PAF in High Mark , Azm-Nau 3 and other exercises and with the induction of new avionics and more changes to the design , its getting more mature day by day ... Even if its not battle proven , how are you so sure that its capabilies are undermined ?

 

[SQ8]

U pointed a very valid point-- war can't be fought in isolation -- which will put you in more risk

But you didn't answer the number things the scenario would be of 3:1 -- how the F-16 will survive with strings attached ?

In a BVR combat long legs will be a game changer -- don't you think so ??

I am disappointed with your last line -- PLAAF didn't mention it but don't you think it would have known to all the military planners of the world. It was not in the cyberspace doesn't make it invisible to the planners. On that line IAF will also have her secrets procurement.

Think about what I said again.. you may get it.

in a 3:1 scenario.. the strings of sanctions wont matter.. A 3:1 against a capable enemy and you will be gone long before santions hit even if you take two down for every one of yours.
In BVR combat.. legs become a game changer in case the IAF bases its assets far behind the border.
It will matter if the IAF becomes clever and circumvents the Pakistan coastline to strike from behind.. any other circling movements would be picked up.

 

[Storm Force]

126 Typhoons will soon settle any 2 front war situations that IAF may find itself in.

infact i think the order is being increased to 189

IMAGINE a sqd Typhoons & SU30MKI coming up against 100 THUNDERS & F16s.



My money goes to meteore equipped Typhoons winning all the points.

And i am certain the chinease will not want to be embarressed by IAF typhoons and MKI PILOTS.

 

[PakShaheen79]

My friend -- we also have the support of whatever you have AWACS, SAM etc.. we have better and huge resources.

Again 60 vintage sanctioned prone f-16s are no contest of 150+mki. read the numbers my friend they are resources.

And u are repeating this, what.... 100th time? I asked earlier as well that where this super duper IAF with all its might was in 2002 and 2008? huh.

You are constantly ignoring the fact that JFT from inception is worked by PAF and it is only case in the world. Do you know what that means? This is not a fighter designed by some company and purchased by some Air Force... This is outcome of requirements and specifications of PAF. So, it was never supposed to take longer time span of 5-7 years before being a mature platform. It is in the consistently on trial since 2006 when current production model prototype flew so it has seen that phase pretty much.

I can understand that JFT was very difficult for you guys to accept as reality so is Block-II.

 

[abdulbarijan]

[

EF-2000 is operational my friend.. there is no speculation regarding her existence. I am not saying jf-17-2and jb-10 are not present they are but they are not operational.

Sure,I remember you guys wanted AESA in MMRCA contenders and few of your own IAF requirements right..now EF-2000 doesn't currently operate an AESA,same goes for rafale which uses RBE2..now by your logic they are also under development since the upgrading process is under way similar to J-10B and JF-17 II...

that is we want to know -- what is that ?

JF-17 II,III,MLU F-16's + new ones,FC-20's,with C4I and AWACS support and new SAMS

Russian can't have MKIs because it is customized as per indian requirement. a lot of western equipment are there in MKI.

the reason you have mentioned is ridiculous -- they already ordered a lot of engines from russia. even j10 and j20 prototype are working on russian engine.

But they are being replaced arn't they WS-10B for J-10,a new engine for J-20 and WS-13 for JF-17..PLAAF itself is in no hurry to deploy JF-17 as they have their hands full with J-20,J-10 etc

 

[majesticpankaj]

Think about what I said again.. you may get it.

in a 3:1 scenario.. the strings of sanctions wont matter.. A 3:1 against a capable enemy and you will be gone long before santions hit even if you take two down for every one of yours.
In BVR combat.. legs become a game changer in case the IAF bases its assets far behind the border.
It will matter if the IAF becomes clever and circumvents the Pakistan coastline to strike from behind.. any other circling movements would be picked up.

as per your analysis all the points again goes to IAF

Let me ask you a question -- why Israel which is encircled by arabs has been so successful against arabs ?