PAF's possible answer to MRCA

[SQ8]

Gentlemen, please post on ideal counters to the MMRCA.. not the rest of the equation.

 

[majesticpankaj]

[
Sure,I remember you guys wanted AESA in MMRCA contenders and few of your own IAF requirements right..now EF-2000 doesn't currently operate an AESA,same goes for rafale which uses RBE2..now by your logic they are also under development since the upgrading process is under way similar to J-10B and JF-17 II...

JF-17 II,III,MLU F-16's + new ones,FC-20's,with C4I and AWACS support and new SAMS


But they are being replaced arn't they WS-10B for J-10,a new engine for J-20 and WS-13 for JF-17..PLAAF itself is in no hurry to deploy JF-17 as they have their hands full with J-20,J-10 etc

Rafale and typhoon are selected against the F-18 superhornet and F-16 block 60 having AESA which speaks volume about their capabilities -- doesn't it ?? So don't put question mark against their capabilities. again my friend you don't have iota of knowledge of being operational.

F-16 new ones ?? forget about it... sorry to say but jf-17 who has been refused by china itself is only a PDF phenomenon.

they are variants only not the final products. and why did they order russian engines if in case they are operational ??

 

[abdulbarijan]

Rafale and typhoon are selected against the F-18 superhornet and F-16 block 60 having AESA which speaks volume about their capabilities -- doesn't it ?? So don't put question mark against their capabilities. again my friend you don't have iota of knowledge of being operational.

Sure when the EF-2000's and Rafale are under upgrades they are operational,but when the JFT and J-10's are under similar upgrades they are not operational ..its okay no problemoo

F-16 new ones ?? forget about it... sorry to say but jf-17 who has been refused by china itself is only a PDF phenomenon.

continue underestimating after all thats why PAF did to IAF in history what it did becuz of ur superiority complex..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/49985-paf-1965-air-war-explained-john-fricker.html

they are variants only not the final products. and why did they order russian engines if in case they are operational ??

Exports , U need to have options,Chinese are not the best in the engine arena and to compensate for that U need to have the capability to give others some other options eg PAF might operate FC-20 with Russian engine,and the fact that the solution is more feasible to maintain such a huge fleet of fighter jets (for China)..but when they can produce more No. of engines and they will mature than obviously we will see J-10,J-20 and JFT with chinese engines

 

[Secur]

Rafale and typhoon are selected against the F-18 superhornet and F-16 block 60 having AESA which speaks volume about their capabilities -- doesn't it ?? So don't put question mark against their capabilities. again my friend you don't have iota of knowledge of being operational.

F-16 new ones ?? forget about it... sorry to say but jf-17 who has been refused by china itself is only a PDF phenomenon.

they are variants only not the final products. and why did they order russian engines if in case they are operational ??

Just go to the JFT thread once and learn what the hell it is ? ( all the basic specs , avionic , EW etc ) so you dont have to come and irritate us with the same " Chinese products are inferior " and " Oh JFT wasn't adopted by PLAAF ) logics ... I am starting to think that even when confronted with proof , you will go round and round and again post the same crap argument ... The simple reason that Chinese ordered Russian engines is that it is far more cheaper and feasible at the moment to purchase Russian engines rather than waste precious time ... Chinese engine production lines still cant supply enough engines which the PLAAF requires hence the contract with Russia which gives enough time to Chinese engines developers to open new production line to increase supply ... Doesn't mean that WS series has technical faults ... China has an arsenal of more than 190 J10's and 120 J11's and their numbers are increasing each year which need a hell lot of engines to fly ... Rest assured in the future when Chinese engine builders can supply enough engines to meet the demand , there wont be further purchase from the Russians ... J10 , JFT's , J11 and in the future J 20 are all slated to fly with Chinese WS series engines

 

[DARKY]

To all those of you who think that PAF's embargoed F-16s are a No threat... let me tell you there aren't any secret software which won't allow their radars to lock on to Indian fighters neither are US going to tell you the location of those aircrafts even if they know it.... the spares are just enough to last the war which won't exceed more than a week.... the BVR missiles are also enough to be fired in that time.... and no body is snatching them when the war starts... without F-16 PAF is nil... and those are the only fighters which can stand against the current IAF 4.5 gen. fleet.. If I were from the weapon manufacturer in US I would like to see how my F-16 performs against other fighter and rather encourage them to fight.

 

[Secur]

without F-16 PAF is nil...

Try to go through the thread of JFT

 

[majesticpankaj]

Sure when the EF-2000's and Rafale are under upgrades they are operational,but when the JFT and J-10's are under similar upgrades they are not operational ..its okay no problemoo


continue underestimating after all thats why PAF did to IAF in history what it did becuz of ur superiority complex..
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/49985-paf-1965-air-war-explained-john-fricker.html

Exports , U need to have options,Chinese are not the best in the engine arena and to compensate for that U need to have the capability to give others some other options eg PAF might operate FC-20 with Russian engine.

dear friend-- to fit an AESA you need to do a lot of changes in air-frame. and please western technology with their knowledge and experience they are way ahead of Chinese tech. You should appreciate the facts.

I don't want to bring the history because it would be off topic.

so don't boast about chinese engines as they are not operational. and please read this-- another nightmare for PAF

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times

 

[Windjammer]

Found this on the web, makes interesting reading and should clear some cob webs.

The event
At 11:30 am PST [Pakistan Standard Time], 3 Indian Mirage 2000-H fighter jets crossed the line of control, intruding in airspace over Pakistani side of the disputed valley of Kashmir, up until approximately three to four miles before they were intercepted by 2 F16s and 2 Mirage III fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
The second intrusion was recorded at around 12:20 pm PST, when 2 Indian SU-30 MKIs crossed the international border near an eastern city of Pakistan; Lahore. During this instance, they were able to penetrate around 2 miles inside the Pakistani airspace before getting intercepted by 3 F-16s and 3 F7 fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
Given the murkiness surrounding the event, it’s still unknown (thus subject to a future update of this post), if the intruding aircrafts went back on their own upon registering PAF fighters on their radars, or were hailed by PAF fighters and got escorted out of Pakistani air space.

What does the political regime in India set to gain from such an operation?
From what I’ve read and seen, I believe the current regime in India tried to score two goals by launching such an operation.

The overwhelming domestic pressure inside India is forcing their government’s hand and pushing it toward taking unilateral military action against Pakistan-based militants. That said, it doesn’t need a rocket scientist to realize that any war or a mass scale conflict with Pakistan will worsen the security situation for India and in the broader region (read Allied forces residing in Afghanistan). Thus, in their attempt at striking a balance between the need to act and the need to exercise caution, New Delhi likely ordered the incursions as a means to sustain the pressure on Pakistan in order to make it continue its crackdown on militants, without really escalating the situation beyond the point of no return.
British Prime Minister was set to visit Pakistan and India, on Sunday morning i.e. December 14th, 2008. It was an excellent time to drive the point home (specially to the western intermediaries), that India is serious in achieving its targets inside Pakistan this time around. And what better way could there have been but by sounding alarms for an impending surgical aerial strike inside Pakistan.
What does Indian air force set to gain from such an operation?
This is certainly not the first time that Indian air force has sent its aircrafts over Pakistani territory in order to conduct ELINT (electronic intelligence) and RECCE (reconnaissance) operations. Throughout the 80s, 90s and much of early 2000s, IAF has been sending routine sorties of their MiG-25 FOXBAT fighter jet over Lahore, Islamabad and Azad Kashmir with relative impunity, considering the fact that Pakistan air force or the army have no weapon in their arsenal capable of countering an aircraft flying at MACH 3 at a height of a hundred thousand feet. But ever since its retirement in 2006, they have relied on their CARTOSAT/OCEANSAT/IRS series of satellites for visual surveillance of India’s neighborhood. While, satellites did give them a better surveillance capability, they do not allow them to record signatures for newer radar or SAM systems being incorporated by their neighbours (a much useful feature on the FOXBATs).

Therefore, if IAF are to in fact prepare to launch surgical strikes inside Pakistani territory, they will first need the following information:

The level of PAF’s preparedness and sortie generation speed.
Recording TPS-77 , YLC-2 and YLC-6 radar signatures (if they did in fact go live, during the intercept). Why? Because, these three are the newest radar systems acquired by PAF and thus their radar signatures are hitherto unknown to the Indians.
Check for any new fixed / mobile SAM (Surface to Air missiles) batteries which radars lit up, during their flight over Pakistani territory.
It should, therefore not come as a surprise that it were two of India’s finest birds (with Russian and Israeli EW [electronic warfare] equipment) that took to the sky for this particular mission.

Reaction of Government of Pakistan
Well, we’ve a joke of an information minister; Sherry Rehman, trying to drive across a point that doesn’t make sense to even a slightly thinking mind. There is always a span of 15 to 20 km on either side of a border that is considered a no fly zone (for military aircrafts). This span is utilized for reactionary purposes so as to allow reaction through aerial interception and engagement which requires 3 to 5 minutes in times of dire need. How can then two of the finest birds in Indian air force’s inventory make the same mistake (of entering Pakistani airspace while making a turn as per explained by the President of Pakistan; Asif Ali Zardari), at two different occasions, at two different points over Pakistani territory on the same day? Keep in mind that we are not talking about a single fighter jet in here, but complete sorties of 3 Mirage 2000-H and 2 SU-30 MKI aircrafts.

Does the explanation, put forward by the Government of Pakistan, make any sense to you now?

From where I see it and having a slight agreement with, Pakistani politicians do not want to get cornered and start a war (of any scale) with India. And are thus bending over backwards in order to appease them, even if it takes them to make illogical and irrational explanations describing some very visible signs of Indian belligerence. Another reason for doing this, is to keep the emotions of people of Pakistan in check. What I don’t know, is that how far their attempts will go.

Why? Because this is not the 80s anymore, information spreads like jungle-fire courtesy Pakistan’s private media outlets and more importantly, Pakistani military services do not seem to be in a mood to put up with such behaviour. What strengthens my belief is the fact that the news about PAF intercepting Indian fighters was leaked to the private media through PAF sources, after almost 12 hours of the said event. It didn’t come from the government of Pakistan.

What did PAF gain from the intercept?
One word; confidence. To be able to intercept enemy fighter jets within 2 – 5 miles of Pakistani airspace (that is equivalent of flight time of around 15 seconds for a jet fighter), suggests that they were not only ready for such a move on part of IAF but also on their toes, keeping a look out for it. While numerically and qualitatively, PAF jets are far inferior to what the Indians can put up in the air, the fact that they got air borne and reached the target area within such a short period of time, suggests that it was a job well done.

Indian SU-30 MKI and Mirage 2000-H aircrafts intrude into Pakistani airspace | Abdullah Saad

 

[majesticpankaj]

Just go to the JFT thread once and learn what the hell it is ? ( all the basic specs , avionic , EW etc ) so you dont have to come and irritate us with the same " Chinese products are inferior " and " Oh JFT wasn't adopted by PLAAF ) logics ... I am starting to think that even when confronted with proof , you will go round and round and again post the same crap argument ... The simple reason that Chinese ordered Russian engines is that it is far more cheaper and feasible at the moment to purchase Russian engines rather than waste precious time ... Chinese engine production lines still cant supply enough engines which the PLAAF requires hence the contract with Russia which gives enough time to Chinese engines developers to open new production line to increase supply ... Doesn't mean that WS series has technical faults ... China has an arsenal of more than 190 J10's and 120 J11's and their numbers are increasing each year which need a hell lot of engines to fly ... Rest assured in the future when Chinese engine builders can supply enough engines to meet the demand , there wont be further purchase from the Russians ... J10 , JFT's , J11 and in the future J 20 are all slated to fly with Chinese WS series engines

you are putting question mark against the supply lines of china In that case how they suffice the need of PAF ?? I guess russian engines will do

 

[Secur]

you are putting question mark against the supply lines of china In that case how they suffice the need of PAF ?? I guess russian engines will do

It is common knowledge that Chinese production lines are currently unable to supply enough engines to meet the demand of the PLAAF ... Slowly , they are increasing their capacity but at the moment they have to purchase Russian engines to meet the demand ( why dont you pressurize the Russians to stop supplying the engines though ? )

 

[majesticpankaj]

@windjammer -- don't post the blog which do not even mention the date of incident

---------- Post added at 02:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 AM ----------

It is common knowledge that Chinese production lines are currently unable to supply enough engines to meet the demand of the PLAAF ... Slowly , they are increasing their capacity but at the moment they have to purchase Russian engines to meet the demand ( why dont you pressurize the Russians to stop supplying the engines though ? )

We do not have immediate threat against jf-17

as i posted above

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times

 

[Secur]

@windjammer -- don't post the blog which do not even mention the date of incident

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times

Nothing more than a political speech to please the Indians ... Actions speak louder than words ... Why do they still supply the PLAAF ( and by extension PAF ) with engines and aircrafts and all sorts of their finest military tech if they are such great friend of yours ? The reason : Money ... They needed money to build the 5th generation PAK FA and they got it LOL ... They sell weapons to both China and India for the very same reason

 

[majesticpankaj]

Nothing more than a political speech to please the Indians ... Actions speak louder than words ... Why do they still supply the PLAAF ( and by extension PAF ) with engines and aircrafts and all sorts of their finest military tech if they are such great friend of yours ? The reason : Money ... They needed money to build the 5th generation PAK FA and they got it LOL ... They sell weapons to both China and India for the very same reason

you are talking that we are not getting PAK FA

Here we are talking about indo pak scenario-- both of your so called finest aircraft are sanctioned prone -- Russia won't entertain you during WAR

 

[DARKY]

Found this on the web, makes interesting reading and should clear some cob webs.

The event
At 11:30 am PST [Pakistan Standard Time], 3 Indian Mirage 2000-H fighter jets crossed the line of control, intruding in airspace over Pakistani side of the disputed valley of Kashmir, up until approximately three to four miles before they were intercepted by 2 F16s and 2 Mirage III fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
The second intrusion was recorded at around 12:20 pm PST, when 2 Indian SU-30 MKIs crossed the international border near an eastern city of Pakistan; Lahore. During this instance, they were able to penetrate around 2 miles inside the Pakistani airspace before getting intercepted by 3 F-16s and 3 F7 fighter jets of Pakistan air force.
Given the murkiness surrounding the event, it’s still unknown (thus subject to a future update of this post), if the intruding aircrafts went back on their own upon registering PAF fighters on their radars, or were hailed by PAF fighters and got escorted out of Pakistani air space.

What does the political regime in India set to gain from such an operation?
From what I’ve read and seen, I believe the current regime in India tried to score two goals by launching such an operation.

The overwhelming domestic pressure inside India is forcing their government’s hand and pushing it toward taking unilateral military action against Pakistan-based militants. That said, it doesn’t need a rocket scientist to realize that any war or a mass scale conflict with Pakistan will worsen the security situation for India and in the broader region (read Allied forces residing in Afghanistan). Thus, in their attempt at striking a balance between the need to act and the need to exercise caution, New Delhi likely ordered the incursions as a means to sustain the pressure on Pakistan in order to make it continue its crackdown on militants, without really escalating the situation beyond the point of no return.
British Prime Minister was set to visit Pakistan and India, on Sunday morning i.e. December 14th, 2008. It was an excellent time to drive the point home (specially to the western intermediaries), that India is serious in achieving its targets inside Pakistan this time around. And what better way could there have been but by sounding alarms for an impending surgical aerial strike inside Pakistan.
What does Indian air force set to gain from such an operation?
This is certainly not the first time that Indian air force has sent its aircrafts over Pakistani territory in order to conduct ELINT (electronic intelligence) and RECCE (reconnaissance) operations. Throughout the 80s, 90s and much of early 2000s, IAF has been sending routine sorties of their MiG-25 FOXBAT fighter jet over Lahore, Islamabad and Azad Kashmir with relative impunity, considering the fact that Pakistan air force or the army have no weapon in their arsenal capable of countering an aircraft flying at MACH 3 at a height of a hundred thousand feet. But ever since its retirement in 2006, they have relied on their CARTOSAT/OCEANSAT/IRS series of satellites for visual surveillance of India’s neighborhood. While, satellites did give them a better surveillance capability, they do not allow them to record signatures for newer radar or SAM systems being incorporated by their neighbours (a much useful feature on the FOXBATs).

Therefore, if IAF are to in fact prepare to launch surgical strikes inside Pakistani territory, they will first need the following information:

The level of PAF’s preparedness and sortie generation speed.
Recording TPS-77 , YLC-2 and YLC-6 radar signatures (if they did in fact go live, during the intercept). Why? Because, these three are the newest radar systems acquired by PAF and thus their radar signatures are hitherto unknown to the Indians.
Check for any new fixed / mobile SAM (Surface to Air missiles) batteries which radars lit up, during their flight over Pakistani territory.
It should, therefore not come as a surprise that it were two of India’s finest birds (with Russian and Israeli EW [electronic warfare] equipment) that took to the sky for this particular mission.

Reaction of Government of Pakistan
Well, we’ve a joke of an information minister; Sherry Rehman, trying to drive across a point that doesn’t make sense to even a slightly thinking mind. There is always a span of 15 to 20 km on either side of a border that is considered a no fly zone (for military aircrafts). This span is utilized for reactionary purposes so as to allow reaction through aerial interception and engagement which requires 3 to 5 minutes in times of dire need. How can then two of the finest birds in Indian air force’s inventory make the same mistake (of entering Pakistani airspace while making a turn as per explained by the President of Pakistan; Asif Ali Zardari), at two different occasions, at two different points over Pakistani territory on the same day? Keep in mind that we are not talking about a single fighter jet in here, but complete sorties of 3 Mirage 2000-H and 2 SU-30 MKI aircrafts.

Does the explanation, put forward by the Government of Pakistan, make any sense to you now?

From where I see it and having a slight agreement with, Pakistani politicians do not want to get cornered and start a war (of any scale) with India. And are thus bending over backwards in order to appease them, even if it takes them to make illogical and irrational explanations describing some very visible signs of Indian belligerence. Another reason for doing this, is to keep the emotions of people of Pakistan in check. What I don’t know, is that how far their attempts will go.

Why? Because this is not the 80s anymore, information spreads like jungle-fire courtesy Pakistan’s private media outlets and more importantly, Pakistani military services do not seem to be in a mood to put up with such behaviour. What strengthens my belief is the fact that the news about PAF intercepting Indian fighters was leaked to the private media through PAF sources, after almost 12 hours of the said event. It didn’t come from the government of Pakistan.

What did PAF gain from the intercept?
One word; confidence. To be able to intercept enemy fighter jets within 2 – 5 miles of Pakistani airspace (that is equivalent of flight time of around 15 seconds for a jet fighter), suggests that they were not only ready for such a move on part of IAF but also on their toes, keeping a look out for it. While numerically and qualitatively, PAF jets are far inferior to what the Indians can put up in the air, the fact that they got air borne and reached the target area within such a short period of time, suggests that it was a job well done.

Indian SU-30 MKI and Mirage 2000-H aircrafts intrude into Pakistani airspace | Abdullah Saad

The writer says that the jets were intercepted within 2-3 mile in Pakistani air space..... at the same times entertains a possiblility of the intruders being escorted by the PAF jets.

The sorties was a clinical one required to record technical data and have ground mapping for any SAM site present across the border.

In any case incursion is made with atleast one wing man.

at the event of war there would be more than scores of such incursions taking places every hour... and the numbers would change from 2 Su 30 against 3 f-16 and 3 F-7s to 5 Su 30 against 2 F-16s and 2 F-7 which would be downed pretty early most of the times.

The main concern for the Lahore incursion would've been to gain the data over TPS-77 Radar installed there... the radar can be countered by the use of Kh-31 by blinding it or brahmos by destroying it in no time... both well within reach from well inside the Indian border.

 

[DARKY]

Try to go through the thread of JFT

Your JFT thread doesn't make the plane what it is not... the hard truth is that PAF has not much to fight with without F-16 as of now... you can make 100s of JFT threads and sing praises but it won't change.