PAF victories against Israeli Air Force, kept secret for 25 years - Air Commodore (r) Khalid Chishti

[Reichmarshal]

US congressman, Charles Wilson (famous for Charlie Wilson’s War) in a discussion with Pakistani diplomats in Washington DC remarked.

“……In 1971, it was certainly not possible for the 35,000 Pakistani troops in Dhaka to fight against the combined strength of 200,000 Indian army and the more than 100,000 Indian-trained Bengali guerillas.”

Another US congressman, Stephen Solarz, commenting on the War of 1971 in June 1989, remarked,

“Pakistanis are energetic, vibrant, and resilient. We must not be misled by 1971. It was certainly not possible for the 40,000 odd Pakistani army in Dhaka to fight against much larger Indian army and Indian-trained Bengali Bahinis in a hostile territory ….”

K C Pant, Indian former Defense Minister in September, 1994 during a discussion on Indo-Pak relations held in New Delhi, said

“Peace is important between Pakistan and India. We respect the professional competence of the Pakistani soldier. Had democracy continued in Pakistan, Islamabad would not have suffered the debacle resulting in the surrender of its 40,000 military personnel to India in East Pakistan”.

Sarmila Bose, the famous Indian Bengali writer and Associate Researcher at Oxford University in her book Dead Reckoning published in 2011, asserts

“…… t appears that while the total figure in Indian custody is about right, to state that 93,000 soldiers were taken prisoner is wrong, and creates confusions by greatly inflating the Pakistani fighting force in East Pakistan”.

According to Lt Gen Naizi, Corps Commander of Eastern Command in 1971.

“The total fighting strength available to me [Gen Naizi] was forty-five thousand – 34,000 from the army, plus 11,000 from CAF and West Pakistan civilian police and armed non-combatants”who were fighting against the insurgents. Even if the strength of HL, MLA, depots, training institutes, workshops, factories, nurses and lady doctors, non-combatants like barbers, cooks, shoemakers and sweepers are added, even then the total comes to only 55,000.

Air Marshal Rahim khan, CNC Pakistan Air Force (1969-1972), had stated:

“The number of regular Pakistani troops in East Pakistan never exceeded 33,000-34,000. The rest is just propaganda by India and the Awami League, to magnify their success….”

 

[Zarvan]

3 are those kills which Pakistani sent pilots from here. There were pilots who were already in Arab countries training them. And sometimes flying jets for them. This Pakistani pilots training Indians is not a new thing.

 

[Goritoes]

What exactly did Pakistan gain from sending its pilots to fight against Israel?

Experience, that was passed on by those who flew against the IAF, shot them down, and came back home PROUD.

 

[air marshal]

 

[Beny Karachun]

Ask yourself why did Israel activate their THAD missile defense system in Feb 2019.


Puny Israel probably shit it's pants that Pakistan is angry and not scared to go head on with 6 times larger India then what chance their tiny country have.

Because Israel has an annual exercise ongoing from 2001 every two years called Juniper Falcon, and another one called Juniper Cobra.

THAAD deployment had nothing to do with Pakistan, such a deployment was planned two years in advance.

Hurts huh? We shot down your guys, you never got one of ours. Maybe that well publicised aura of invincibility is not all it's cracked up to be.

You can go back to shooting up kids on beaches now.

Whatever rows your boat

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Because Israel has an annual exercise ongoing from 2001 every two years called Juniper Falcon, and another one called Juniper Cobra.

THAAD deployment had nothing to do with Pakistan, such a deployment was planned two years in advance.

Whatever rows your boat

@Beny Karachun

Can I ask you please; have you got any evidence that Israeli A. F. shot down a PAF pilot?

 

[Beny Karachun]

@Beny Karachun

Can I ask you please; have you got any evidence that Israeli A. F. shot down a PAF pilot?

Why would I have evidence for something I never claimed was true?
I said even if an Israeli pilot shot down a Pakistani one, the Israeli wouldn't know as they're flying with Arab marked jets, and it would be up to the Pakistani air force to report such a thing.

 

[Baibars_1260]

Whatever rows your boat

The participation of Pakistani pilots in air operations against Israel was no secret to Israeli intelligence. The Israeli Air Force generally had a good impression about the Pakistani Air Force and its commanders.

ACM Nur Khan's involvement with the group of Pakistani pilots that clashed with the Israeli Air Force during the Six Day War immediately attracted the attention of the Israeli Air Force.
In fact, the President of Israel, Ezer Weizman, who was also the Commander of the Israeli Air Force and the Minister of Defense of Israel, wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".

(Ref: On Eagles' Wings: The Personal Story of the Leading Commander of the Israeli Air Force. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc., 1977 )

 

[Baibars_1260]

THAAD deployment had nothing to do with Pakistan, such a deployment was planned two years in advance.
Whatever rows your boat

Benny,
This may be off topic but would like to have your views nonetheless.

Pakistan's nuclear weapons program was widely known to Western, Soviet, Indian and Israeli intelligence all of which had a stake in stopping Pakistan's nuclear program.

Israel is usually very pro-active in eliminating any threats from nuclear weapons in the region.
Example: Israel successfully destroyed Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in an air strike ( Operation Babylon or Operation Opera ) on 7th June 1981.

Did Israel plan an Iraq style strike on Pakistani nuclear facilities, possibly using bases from India ?

Why has Israel has not carried out any strikes against Pakistani nuclear assets as of date?

 

[Baibars_1260]

Lastly, please read history. Reality is our generals in the east surrendered thinking that the Indians had far more troops than they really had. We gave up without a fight. Compare that to the Israelis or Nazis who fought till the end. Our generals were the biggest traitors. Thats reality

Off topic :
The 1971 war was a Civil War which the enemy took advantage of.
Why would Pakistani soldiers die in a war for a people who did not want us?

Israelis fought for their land as a people.Even they surrendered Sinai after the 1973 war because it was untenable.
Nazis fought for their ideology and ultimately for their country when loosing. Even so there were spectacular surrenders such as at Stalingrad where 230,000 to 250,000 German and allied troops under General Von Paulus surrendered to the Soviet Red Army. There was a final capitulation in Berlin as shown by this very accurate renactment by a recent German movie "A woman in Berlin". ( Link ).
Nazi General Weidling's surrender call is now carved in a metal plate embedded into the sidewalk from where he first made his broadcast.
Pakistan only surrendered in a foreign territory, not in its national capital. Pakistan got all its soldiers back in good shape. 90% of German prisoners died in POW camps. Pakistan's armed forces remained intact to rebuild, and rearm, to acquire nuclear and missile capabilities keeping a far larger adversary off balance. Pakistan's territory is far more defensible than a dog leg swamp 1000 miles away completely enveloped by enemy territory.
If India had wisely chosen to perpetuate the Civil War in the East by supporting the rebellion the strain of sustaining operations there would have distracted Pakistan so much that India could have possibly attempted a takeover of Azad Kashmir.
Immediately after December 16, 1971 India suddenly found itself facing a rapidly rearming Pakistan strongly supported by China, US and its Iranian and Arab allies able to counter any attempt by India to take Kashmir. Even the Soviets then backing India militarily could not guarantee an Indian victory in West Pakistan. Despite the bloody stalemate the Soviets advised India to keep fighting, but India chickened out and accepted the UN ceasefire resolution unilaterally. Which is why Indian COAS went to Lahore in early 1972 to discuss disengagement and territory swap even before the Simla Summit

 

[Nomad40]

You're so full of yourself you don't have common sense.

Not gonna talk to you anymore

I don't know when was that, but Iraq definitely had no major role in our wars.

Another fool, full of himseld

At least I am not full of shit Beny.

 

[Beny Karachun]

Did Israel plan an Iraq style strike on Pakistani nuclear facilities, possibly using bases from India ?

Why has Israel has not carried out any strikes against Pakistani nuclear assets as of date?

I don't think it did, there's absolutely no evidence it did.

As for why, it's because Pakistan is too far away and unlike certain idiots in this forum believe, its government won't randomly decide to start a nuclear exchange with Israel.

The participation of Pakistani pilots in air operations against Israel was no secret to Israeli intelligence. The Israeli Air Force generally had a good impression about the Pakistani Air Force and its commanders.

ACM Nur Khan's involvement with the group of Pakistani pilots that clashed with the Israeli Air Force during the Six Day War immediately attracted the attention of the Israeli Air Force.
In fact, the President of Israel, Ezer Weizman, who was also the Commander of the Israeli Air Force and the Minister of Defense of Israel, wrote in his autobiography that: "He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and not Egyptian".

(Ref: On Eagles' Wings: The Personal Story of the Leading Commander of the Israeli Air Force. New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., Inc., 1977 )

What's your point? The pilots did not know who was a Pakistani pilot and who wasn't, Pakistani pilots weren't the only good pilots out in the battle. No one thought "Oh he's good, he must be a Pakistani pilot"

At least I am not full of shit Beny.

Are you sure?

 

[Baibars_1260]

I don't think it did, there's absolutely no evidence it did.

As for why, it's because Pakistan is too far away and unlike certain idiots in this forum believe, its government won't randomly decide to start a nuclear exchange with Israel.

You didn't answer my point, which I am repeating here In simple terms.

1. Israel is pro-active in eliminating nuclear weapons threats. The strikes in Iraq and later in Syria are evidence that when threatened Israel will respond ( and there is nothing "wrong " here ).

2. Logistic limitations has never been a determining factor in Israeli capabilities in mounting air strikes or airborne operations. Israel could mount an operation to free hostages in Entebbe Uganda in 1976. With excellent long range arial refueling capabilities, the excuse that Pakistan is "too far away " doesn't count. Additionally India would have given ( and has likely offered) bases for Israeli Air Force planes to fly out from and attack Pakistan. US bases in Kuwait, Qatar, Diego Garcia would be available. Israel could use long range standoff weapons such as JASSM both air and naval launched to hit Pakistan.

3. Hitting Pakistani assets doesn't necessarily mean a nuclear war. In 2013 the USA destroyed two Pakistani frontier posts ( Salala ) with air strikes, causing heavy casualties. Lacking capabilities Pakistan could not respond.
Pakistan only recently acquired the range ( Shaheen 3 ) to target Israel and in any case the launch would be detected well in advance and Israel would have a good chance of intercepting the missile with its Arrow system. This is known to the Pakistani missile command. Pakistan has no friendly bases near Israel to place any nuclear or conventional assets even if it wanted to. This fact is known to Israel also.

In short Israel can destroy ( or at least attempt to destroy) Pakistan's nuclear assets with impunity.

There is another reason for Israel tolerating Pakistan's nuclear status.
I suspect the answer is known but will let you have the last word on this.

What's your point? The pilots did not know who was a Pakistani pilot and who wasn't, Pakistani pilots weren't the only good pilots out in the battle. No one thought "Oh he's good, he must be a Pakistani pilot"

My point ( if you read your history) is that foreign friendly pilots often fly to support allied nations in secret or unacknowledged. This is a poorly kept secret to the adversary. Flying tactics are a dead give away even if radio chatter is eliminated . Soviet pilots flew in combat for the North Korean Air Force, and it was suspected that Soviet pilots ( very few ) flew for the Vietnamese Air Force as well. The USA suspected the presence of Soviet pilots ( called "Honchos" ) precisely because those individual Mig 15s were flown so expertly. Now the names of Ivan Kozhedub, Papaleyev are out. Some VPAF pilot aces are suspected to be Russians as well.

Soviet pilots flew for the Egyptian Air Force against Israel during the post 1973 War of Attrition. The growing challenges to Israeli air supremacy over the Sinai was one factor in Israel signing the Camp David accord.

Ezer Weizman himself a fighter pilot and chief of the Israeli Air Force acknowledged the prowess of Pakistani fighter pilots in the compliment to my country's air chief.

So yes the argument goes:

" He can't be a North Korean, he must be Russian "

" He can't be a Libyan, he must be East German,"

" He can't be a Vietnamese, he must be Soviet.

If we see a competent "Indian" pilot we will say,

" He cant be an Indian. He must be Israeli. "

 

[Raider 21]

In summary, back to the topic. The claims of the original post are very much inflated as one forum member pointed out.

 

[Beny Karachun]

You didn't answer my point, which I am repeating here In simple terms.

1. Israel is pro-active in eliminating nuclear weapons threats. The strikes in Iraq and later in Syria are evidence that when threatened Israel will respond ( and there is nothing "wrong " here ).

2. Logistic limitations has never been a determining factor in Israeli capabilities in mounting air strikes or airborne operations. Israel could mount an operation to free hostages in Entebbe Uganda in 1976. With excellent long range arial refueling capabilities, the excuse that Pakistan is "too far away " doesn't count. Additionally India would have given ( and has likely offered) bases for Israeli Air Force planes to fly out from and attack Pakistan. US bases in Kuwait, Qatar, Diego Garcia would be available. Israel could use long range standoff weapons such as JASSM both air and naval launched to hit Pakistan.

3. Hitting Pakistani assets doesn't necessarily mean a nuclear war. In 2013 the USA destroyed two Pakistani frontier posts ( Salala ) with air strikes, causing heavy casualties. Lacking capabilities Pakistan could not respond.
Pakistan only recently acquired the range ( Shaheen 3 ) to target Israel and in any case the launch would be detected well in advance and Israel would have a good chance of intercepting the missile with its Arrow system. This is known to the Pakistani missile command. Pakistan has no friendly bases near Israel to place any nuclear or conventional assets even if it wanted to. This fact is known to Israel also.

In short Israel can destroy ( or at least attempt to destroy) Pakistan's nuclear assets with impunity.

There is another reason for Israel tolerating Pakistan's nuclear status.
I suspect the answer is known but will let you have the last word on this.



My point ( if you read your history) is that foreign friendly pilots often fly to support allied nations in secret or unacknowledged. This is a poorly kept secret to the adversary. Flying tactics are a dead give away even if radio chatter is eliminated . Soviet pilots flew in combat for the North Korean Air Force, and it was suspected that Soviet pilots ( very few ) flew for the Vietnamese Air Force as well. The USA suspected the presence of Soviet pilots ( called "Honchos" ) precisely because those individual Mig 15s were flown so expertly. Now the names of Ivan Kozhedub, Papaleyev are out. Some VPAF pilot aces are suspected to be Russians as well.

Soviet pilots flew for the Egyptian Air Force against Israel during the post 1973 War of Attrition. The growing challenges to Israeli air supremacy over the Sinai was one factor in Israel signing the Camp David accord.

Ezer Weizman himself a fighter pilot and chief of the Israeli Air Force acknowledged the prowess of Pakistani fighter pilots in the compliment to my country's air chief.

So yes the argument goes:

" He can't be a North Korean, he must be Russian "

" He can't be a Libyan, he must be East German,"

" He can't be a Vietnamese, he must be Soviet.

If we see a competent "Indian" pilot we will say,

" He cant be an Indian. He must be Israeli. "

Bro there isn't too much to talk about.

Exactly. When threatened. Iraq and Syria are at war with us. Pakistan has never threatened us, nor did we threaten them. It's irrelevant to us.


Pakistan is too far a way in a sense of overall relevance, our interests don't collide with Pakistan's interests.
Aitstrike wise, it's in range, sort of.

Destroying all Pakistani nuclear weapons today, on Pakistani ground, is not within our capabilities.

Destroying the Pakistani nuclear program back then, before you got your first nukes , probably was. However Israel had no such interest, maybe India had.

I also believe you won't use a nuclear attack that would kill millions of Israeli and Palestinian Muslims, destroy Muslim holy sites. This would negate the whole reason your government is "hostile" to ours,which is the Palestinians.

Israeli pilots fly only under the Israeli air force. If you think we fly in Indian jets you're wrong.
Also, War of Attrition wasn't post 1973,it was in before it, late 60s early 70s.
The Soviet pilots indeed flew against Israeli jets. However they were easily defeated, read about Operation Rimon 20. 5 Soviet jets down, 0 Israeli down.