PAF urgent need of SAM

[monitor]

as relation with Russia increasing Pakistan can try to get s-300 from Russia new or old as they are replacing with s-400 if not possible then only logical option left are Chinese copy of s-300/400 .

 

[CHI RULES]

I think you forgot LY-80E SAMs from China which Pakistan have purchased.

PAF is not in bad situation but they should get long range SAMs like HQ-9 (which might already been purchased and deployed) must be purchased.

The old crotale SAMS have been upgraded up to 30 KM range from 15 Km, Further Pak has upgraded Anti aircraft guns up to limited scale. We capable medium range SAMS like LY/-80 E or SPADA but problem is that we have them in small numbers only for point defence near sensitive installations. We may have capable air defense even if we have short to medium range mobile SAMS in large numbers near border cities,meanwhile long range SAMS should be acquired to cover our Naval Ports and Islamabad/Rwp area. At worst we should at least induct up graded Hq2 batteries to at least protect our capital and Naval Ports.

What we see at most are mdernised AA guns or ANZAs which at most are good against Migs or Helis but incapable to target high Flying Mirrage 2000s or even Mig 29K.

 

[HRK]

What PAF really needs is also a rangeless ACMI system for DACT training and analysis.Advanced ACMI systems have become really popular with european and USAF over the last decade,and india has been operating israeli systems for the past decade or so.As far as i know PAF still has not developed this capability which will result in a pilot training capability gap if they continue to lag behind.

ACMI POD

this pic I believe is from IDEAS 2000 exhibition

if I am not mistaken the above pic is from 2006 IDEAS defence exhibition

 

[Basel]

Yes, but low altitude knock down.
Pakistan has Crotale 11 km, SPADA 25 km, FM90/Crotale copy has 5 km range .
Here we are talking about Indian SU30 and high altitude intrusion. After Bombay incident , few probing by IAF, PAF realizethe need of high altitude defence weapons.
So, Pakistan has nothing for high altitude and that is the argument. Even China has nothing reliable to offer Pakistan. China order batteries of discountinued S300 and trying to get S400 from China. S300 has range of 25km to 30km. Chinese try to make copy of S300 in the form of FT2000 and it was failed.
ImranKhan argument is valid.......

SPADA is MR SAM with range over 40km for fighter jets, it is complemented with LY-80E with range up to 50km for fighter jets and 12km CMs moving with 300m per sec speed.

All those are integrated with SR-SAMs and AAAs its a integrated network of systems that is deployed for air defense.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

this one is not good pakistani system ???????

:: GIDS - ACMI-SYSTEM ::

Nice.I stand corrected.+1

 

[Basel]

The old crotale SAMS have been upgraded up to 30 KM range from 15 Km, Further Pak has upgraded Anti aircraft guns up to limited scale. We capable medium range SAMS like LY/-80 E or SPADA but problem is that we have them in small numbers only for point defence near sensitive installations. We may have capable air defense even if we have short to medium range mobile SAMS in large numbers near border cities,meanwhile long range SAMS should be acquired to cover our Naval Ports and Islamabad/Rwp area. At worst we should at least induct up graded Hq2 batteries to at least protect our capital and Naval Ports.

What we see at most are mdernised AA guns or ANZAs which at most are good against Migs or Helis but incapable to target high Flying Mirrage 2000s or even Mig 29K.

Please answer my question is Pakistan is fool that they will only buy radars of HQ-9s but not missiles? Pakistan have displayed those radars.

 

[HAIDER]

SPADA is MR SAM with range over 40km for fighter jets, it is complemented with LY-80E with range up to 50km for fighter jets and 12km CMs moving with 300m per sec speed.

All those are integrated with SR-SAMs and AAAs its a integrated network of systems that is deployed for air defense.

Here MBDA offical website is claiming 25km range, altitude range is 11km. Range of LY may be 50 km but again altitude is 10,000 m = 10km
. Again Indian Mirage and SU30 out of range. Where SU30 average strike ceiling is 17 km.
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/aspide-2000_background-1402662720.pdf

 

[war&peace]

Both sides are not interested in peace either... We have a chalta hai attitude... all this peace weace, needs a lot of work, and both sides have bigger fish to fry, both are politically lethargic and absolutely lack foresight and vision for the long term solutions.

India is cannot and won't roll over and demolish the 7th largest standing military on this planet. Pakistan is not going to break through into a 2nd largest standing military on earth either, so there is no winner in this game, and yes I do call it a game, because that is how it has become a over drawn game of number cricket that doesn't want to end. All parties hate each other but will still play along.


No. I believe the the Pakistani Military command has exceptional strategists, who know the exact ground realities of theater of conflict...Thus my humble comment. Hope that explains my point.

What does "weace" mean?

 

[unleashed]

Procure S-300,
if possible go for S-400 and close the thread..
Thanks

 

[Viper 94]

No one is denying the need for either a twin engined platform for Air superiority/naval role and LRSAMs.
I hate the "our planes cannot go up against The SU MKI" debate. bhai are we talking about an air encounter or an Akhara where two Pehlwans are having a Kushti. Why do posters think the USAF perseveres with F16 inspite of having beasts like F15/18s and manufactures F35 inspite of having F22. Do the US fighter pilots go back to base if they are in a single engined fighter and face a twin engined fighter. What have the results of F16 vs F15/18 encounters been? There obviously is more to it than meets the eye. So what are the factors?
Twin engined platforms also suffer from Bigger RCS which makes them visible from a long distance.Single engined platforms for obvious reasons have smaller RCS and will be difficult to visualize so they do have their own advantage.
The other factors will be the range of the radar, an AESA and the range and quality of your BVR. In the presence of these factors the advantage of a twin engined fighter is neutralized. No one but a pimply youth will send a twin engined planed armed with 12 BVRs into an engagement zone as short as the Indo-Pak arena. You need to see the demo of the EFT fully armed from a couple of yrs ago and realize how a n armed fighter turns into a brick more difficult to maneuvre and turn. If it is a combo of 4 BVrs +WVRs the JFT will carry it as well as any other twin engined fighter. No one will loiter around in an arena where BVRs are flying Left right and center unless one has a death wish.
So single engined fighters have their own distinct advantage.In the light of the ABOVE YOU HAVE TO SEE THE FOCUS OF DEVELOPEMENT OF JFT TO SEE WHAT THE PLANNERS ARE GOING FOR.
All of you need to read a brilliant post by @Oscar on the subject if you want to learn( JFT is the wrong omnirole aircraft for PAF# post 128). If you want to just pontificate after this then please continue.
Now the subject of LRSAMS. We know that these are expensive. Our only ally in this field is China and till 5-10 yrs ago it did not have a credible product to sell. The other offerings were too expensive for us and possibly not available as well. So we now only after many yrs have options open up to us with appropriate loans and friendship prices which we might be able to afford. The batteries for LRSAMs are still expensive and run into billions(3-4 Billion$) so they are not easy to get from anywhere.
With all other needs to take account of we have to prioritise our limited budget to get the maximum bang for the buck. Again on the subject of TOT we need to be realistic. What will our friends help us with and what will they object to or pleasantly and courteously decline is something that a lot of us do not understand. To quote an example it is on record that 2-3 yrs ago the Chinese denied us access to the Qing class subs. They have every right to do so.
The last factor in this whole equation is what is a viable option for us to get TOT on and what is not. Again one needs to look at our priority and what our friends will let us access and indeed what we are capable of absorbing in our industrial setup.
These are factors which need to be taken into account before posting your opinions. You need to remember why we made JFT as simple as it was with no composites and why one of our previous ACM said it was not possible for us to absorb the technology present on the Gripen.
Araz

i dont think you understood my point
IAF has around 70 mig-29s we can also take into account that IN has 45 Mig-29Ks, and 50 mirage 2000s other than that they have 200 Su-30MKI plus 70 on order
other than Su-30s IAF & IN's most capable aircraft are mig-29s and mirage 2000s a total of 164 aircraft
other aircraft are mostly ground attack with limited air to air capability and some 250 mig-21s PAF has some 150 F-7S and 150 mirage III & V besides the 130 modern jf-17 and f-16s.
You can't possibly compare any air force with the USAF its inventory is listed below and you can notice it has 2 dedicated air supremacy fighters for every 3 multirole f-16
Israeli air force also maintains a healthy fleet of air superiority fighters in the shape of f-15s
every strike package has to have escort fighters and dedicated air superiority fighter can perform that task better than multirole f-16
I certainly did not mean that an F-16 can't handle a flanker its just that the f-16 and jf-17s will have their hands full countering IAF MIG-29s and mirages as well as ground attack jaguars and mig-27s
there will be no more capable enough fighters left for PAF to spare against 200+ flankers which have a very high payload.
i do realize the twin engine fighters have a handicap due to their size and mechanical complexities
but there are also many advantages
1) Higher survivability
2) Higher payload
3) Bigger and more sophisticated radar and sensors
4) Higher speed
5) Longer endurance (during conflicts air superiority fighters can stay airborne for a long time and can maintain no fly zone of a greater radius and increase response time as the aircraft is already airborne
these are the reasons why all air dominance fighters are twin engined
Type Quantity
F-15 Eagle - 249
F-15E Strike Eagle - 219
F-16 Fighting Falcon -1018
F-22 Raptor - 183
F-35 Lightning - 45
A-10 Thunderbolt II - 173
AC-130H/U 25
AC-130J Ghostrider 32
AC-130W Stinger II 12
B-1B Lancer 66
B-2 Spirit 20
B-52 Stratofortress 78
C-130 Hercules 259
C-145A 16
C-146A Wolfhound 14
C-17 Globemaster III 213
C-20 7
C-21 55
C-37A 9
C-40B/C 11
C-5 A/B/C Galaxy and C-5M Super Galaxy 55
E-3 Sentry (AWACS) 29
E-4B 4
E-8C Joint Stars 16
E-9A 2
EC-130H Compass Call 14
EC-130J Commando Solo 7
HC-130J Combat King II 34
HC-130P/N King 26
HH-60G Pave Hawk 98
KC-10 Extender 59
KC-135 Stratotanker 414
MC-12 42
MC-130E/H Combat Talon I/II 30
MC-130J Commando II 37
MQ-1B Predator 164
MQ-9 Reaper 109
OC-135B Open Skies 2
RC-135S COBRA BALL 3
RC-135U Combat Sent 2
RC-135V/W Rivet Joint 17
RQ-170 Sentinel 20
RQ-4 Global Hawk 32
T-1A Jayhawk 178
T-38 Talon 546
T-6A Texan II 446
U-28A 28
U-2S/TU-2S 33
UH-1N Iroquois 59
VC-25 - Air Force One 2
WC-130 Hercules 10
WC-135 Constant Phoenix 2
Total = 5224

 

[CHI RULES]

Please answer my question is Pakistan is fool that they will only buy radars of HQ-9s but not missiles? Pakistan have displayed those radars.

What sort of radars Pak has got newly except 150KM range radars with LY80 SAMS. Pak already lacks true modern radars having stealth detection capabilities.

Pak should go for HQ9 batteries though in limited numbers along with short to medium range SAMs to compensate them with capable next gen Radars and Sensors to detect Stealth Jets or CMs at sufficient distances.

 

[Viper 94]

What sort of radars Pak has got newly except 150KM range radars with LY80 SAMS. Pak already lacks true modern radars having stealth detection capabilities.

Pak should go for HQ9 batteries though in limited numbers along with short to medium range SAMs to compensate them with capable next gen Radars and Sensors to detect Stealth Jets or CMs at sufficient distances.

TPS-77 Long-Range Radar System range of 10-470km
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/ms2/documents/TPS-77-Fact-Sheet.pdf


Skyguard radar

besides 3 Saab 2000Erieye and 4 Shaanxi ZDK-03 also perform the task of early warning each have maximum detection range of around 450 km

 

[cabatli_53]

ACMI POD

View attachment 250194
this pic I believe is from IDEAS 2000 exhibition

View attachment 250193
if I am not mistaken the above pic is from 2006 IDEAS defence exhibition

Pakistan uses a heavily modified variant of Turkish EHTES electronic warfare and training simulation system. Korean Air Force also uses similar system developed by Havelsan.

It is the reason I believe The Turkish training solutions will be more favorite for Pakistan requirements in terms of compatibility of systems established by same compaines. In this regard, Havelsan ACMI pods to be integrated into Pakistani EHTES training center will be more logical.

 

[HRK]

Pakistan uses a heavily modified variant of Turkish EHTES electronic warfare and training simulation system. Korean Air Force also uses similar system developed by Havelsan.

It is the reason I believe The Turkish training solutions will be more favorite for Pakistan requirements in terms of compatibility of systems established by same compaines. In this regard, Havelsan ACMI pods to be integrated into Pakistani EHTES training center will be more logical.

We already have ACMI pod technology since long first time the ACMI was displayed in 2000 or 2002 IDEAS defence exhibition .... currently we are offering the 'next generation' ACMI pod to the international market

I known & you said as well that Pakistan is using 'heavily modified' Turkish electronic warfare and training simulation system therefore I think the Turkish sys. must be modified to make it compatible with the existing technologies available to us.

 

[tarrar]

Russia is offering Pakistan Tor M1, Buk M1 & Pantsir-S1. In my opinion Pakistan should go for them to strengthen up their air defence, they are the best option for Pakistan.