PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Interim aircraft may provide a time-pressed solution to the IAF threat, but their strategic impact in the balance of power in South Asia will be ultimately short-lived. Factor in the delivery time and crew training, and you will end up with a platform that will be unable to maintain some semblance of parity once IAF inducts the FGFA.

The FGFA is good 15-20 yrs away by that time PAF would be considering TFX or some 6th Gen weapon systems.

As quoted earlier 4 th generation are a must for Indian Air Force but for PAF there is no need because it has got two already.

Wall with Afghanistan? Donald Trump much?

Seriously though, that would be too expensive. We should just try to keep things contained in Afghanistan via surgical strikes and negotiations.

Please read my reply to @Humble Analyst post # 140 above.

Surgical strikes can only be a short term solution but not permanent.

 

[Immanuel]

For the immediate term, if the Rafale deal goes through as Parikrama mentioned in his post, 36 will be direct buy, 90 under MII. I however, do not see the Indian Navy acquiring the Rafale, quite simply because the INS Vishal won't be ready for sea trials atleast for another 10 years and to acquire a 4.5 gen Rafale when plenty of 5th gen options like F-35C, Naval PAKFA and possibly even a Naval AMCA are available at that moment is being quite silly.

It is possible the IAF get more but I think for now 126 fighters in total. Ideally, IAF can order another 54 to take the total to 180 by 2027 i.e 2 sqds of 18 aircraft i.e 36 aircraft for each of 5 air commands, thats a good number. The price of 7.8 billion being quoted for 36, though still high is back to be being in line as timelines of the Brazilian deal so its certainly a more attractive deal.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

1. The Plan is to bring 189 Rafale for the IAF and if selected additional 40 + Rafale-M for the Indian Navy. If I have to speculate than atleast 70-90 numbers of Rafale should be by 2025 in India.
2. The Rafale would be stationed mostly in the eastern border, but IAF with the tankers and aerial refuel capability will have the flexibility to move them quickly, and having Long legged MKI in large number would make it easy for the IAF to move most of the Rafale to the Western front.
3. The strategy is to put the rafale on the deep strike mission on the harderned and strategic important ground target like Radar installation with its strandoff weapons like cruise missiles, without getting the Air Superiority in the PAF airspace, early stages of the War and to do SEAD/DEAD Operations.
4. Long Range Survellance UAV, Super Sukhoi Su-30 MKI (One Super Sukhoi can direct 6 Rafale in a mission), Phalcon AEW EC.
5. Most probably, because India, is not going to sign CISMOA, BECA, and without that no F-35 for IN, and no other contendor plus, the comonality with the Rafale of IAF to lower down the training, and MRO facilities.



PAF was impressed with the ISRAELI Air Force tactics, and tried to implement the same, without putting enough resources and efforts. No parties was able to get the Air Superiority in the WAR of 1965, and after getting few attiration, both parties limits to the night raid only.



Correct, there is Zero chances of F-16's or F-18 coming for IAF
JF-17 Block -3 -- I don't have the spec.
F-16 Block 52 of PAF equal to Rafale F3, You are completely wrong.
F-15 E -- Excellent Choise, and the Best One, but probability is closed to Zero.

In all the total number of Rafales would be 230-250 aircraft combined? Are you serious...

1) The numbers that you have quoted would only be possible till 2030-35 by that time these aircraft would be redundant for the Eastern theater.

2) The induction would delay the AMCA even further.

3) The SU-30 MKI's would be nearing replacement.

4) PAK FA would be the only lifeline if the Russian's honour and fulfill the contract which is highly unlikely in the current back drop of allegations raised by the Indian's regarding the share of technology.


What really happened in 1965 would remain in the cloud of secrecy as both parties would claim their side was victorious. We can not compare IDF actions with that of Pakistan because the lands that were lost or gained by either sides were returned because the Powers of the World wanted it to happen.

What happened in 1967 Arab - Israel War was accepted by the Powers of the World because they had realized their mistake committed at the very beginning when partitioning the Arab Lands to create Israel.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

For the immediate term, if the Rafale deal goes through as Parikrama mentioned in his post, 36 will be direct buy, 90 under MII. I however, do not see the Indian Navy acquiring the Rafale, quite simply because the INS Vishal won't be ready for sea trials atleast for another 10 years and to acquire a 4.5 gen Rafale when plenty of 5th gen options like F-35C, Naval PAKFA and possibly even a Naval AMCA are available at that moment is being quite silly.

It is possible the IAF get more but I think for now 126 fighters in total. Ideally, IAF can order another 54 to take the total to 180 by 2027 i.e 2 sqds of 18 aircraft i.e 36 aircraft for each of 5 air commands, thats a good number. The price of 7.8 billion being quoted for 36, though still high is back to be being in line as timelines of the Brazilian deal so its certainly a more attractive deal.

IAF orders will be much more than 126 so the Indian navy can wait for Rafale M

And if navy is really keen on Rafale
we can shift a few Mig 29 K to the IAF and use them on Vikramaditya and Vikrant

If and when ( say 10 years from now )
an Indian Carrier Battle group moves in the Pacific
along with US navy and Japanese navy then the Navy will prefer to
have Rafales BECAUSE they are compatible with US navy carriers

French Rafales have used US navy carriers ; so too can Indian Rafales do the same

Now we are OFFICIALLY in an alliance

 

[zebra7]

In all the total number of Rafales would be 230-250 aircraft combined? Are you serious...

1) The numbers that you have quoted would only be possible till 2030-35 by that time these aircraft would be redundant for the Eastern theater.

2) The induction would delay the AMCA even further.

3) The SU-30 MKI's would be nearing replacement.

4) PAK FA would be the only lifeline if the Russian's honour and fulfill the contract which is highly unlikely in the current back drop of allegations raised by the Indian's regarding the share of technology.


What really happened in 1965 would remain in the cloud of secrecy as both parties would claim their side was victorious. We can not compare IDF actions with that of Pakistan because the lands that were lost or gained by either sides were returned because the Powers of the World wanted it to happen.

What happened in 1967 Arab - Israel War was accepted by the Powers of the World because they had realized their mistake committed at the very beginning when partitioning the Arab Lands to create Israel.

Yes I am very serious about it, the Plan for IAF is 189 birds. Rafale-M is not selected yet, but most likely it would and I have already given you the reason why it would. The other Carrier based combat planes are :

1. F-18 SH
2. SU-33
3. Mig 29 K
4. J-15
5. F-35 C

Of which Rafale-M gives most advantage for the value of Money, and have good growth potential in the future without signing any deals.

1. .What makes you think Rafale won't get the future upgrade, with the uprated M88 engine upgradation.

2. Why do you expect every Rafale as the fly away, and not build by the Green Field manufactured in India under MII by the Pvt company choosen by Dassault.

3. What makes you think AMCA is in desperate urgency, and India, can't wait till 2030 for AMCA and why can't Dassault help India, in building AMCA or the Naval AMCA for Carrier Operations.

4. Su-30 Retirement ?? Are You Kidding --- Pls follow the Super Sukhoi 30 MKI deep Upgradation/MLU Plan which will make Su- 30 MKI at par with the SU-35. Do you think Su-35 is inferior Jet ?

5. Indian/ IAF is not Interested in PAK FA, it is meant for RuSAF, India is Interested in 144 FGFA, and FGFA and PAK FA both are different Planes derived from the T-50 Prototype, which is in development in Russia, as JV of India and Russia. It will only become the Air Superiority/ Air Defense 5th Generation Stealth/ VLO combat aircraft. India will customized FGFA just like, what it did with the Su 30 MKI. And Pls provide the source, of your thinking, that Russia do not what to share its so called technology -- And what technology ?

 

[AsifIjaz]

IMO the threat from Rafael will be a factor in 2019/20 and right now we need to worry about other modifications and arsenal that IAF and IN has.
Pakistan needs development on all the 3 fronts i.e PN, PAF and PA... there needs to be a consistent and a stubborn approach to get the best of what is available...

PA:
a) air defence needs immediate attention. be it S350, panister, Aster, Spada... bottom line we need air defence with medium range capability to say the least. What ever we choose should be in addition to HQ-9 and the number of batteries should be sufficient to cause a sufficient threat.

b) we need work on a ground to air missile... the idea should be that it should be mobile... as small as possible and kind of replicates hwat mujahideen did to USSR in afghanistan but the range and kill ratio should be x 2 / 3.
Both a and b will make IAF uneasy to say the least and these couple with PAF should be sufficient for the near future.

c) We need MI28-Hind in numbers. the number of helicopters need to be decreased and a pakistan version of Z10 or T129 should be included.

PN:
a) Discuss with Chinese counterpart and get the best package for the 8 subs... these must have AIP and the capability to fire naval version of BABUR.

b) Naval version of BABUR should be tested asap. it should be ready by the time the subs come.

c) F23P, a FT-2000 or whatever we opt for... this should be decided NOW and with VLS and a decent air defence capability to ward off any threat from Mig 29 and others... There should be at least 6 to 8 of these.

PAF:
a) JF17 (Block 2). Continue fine tunning the block 2 and upgrading all aircrafts to block 2 standard. this will bring our basic fighters to a better standard as compared to A-5 or F7 / F7P that they will replace.

b) JF17 (block 3)... this should be a sufficiently modified aircraft... the base structure and architecture should be the same but two critical areas need to be looked at
1) Nose cone... Nose cone dia should be increased by lets say 15% giving it ample space for an AESA... and may be, just may be an IRST... We need a good AESA with solid performance. JF17 will be not reach its potential till we get it an aesa.
For aesa talk to chinese, italians, turkish etc and have a joint venture... we are producing Grifo.. have the AESA made in Pakistan and help local industry as well. its these small steps that will make us proud later.
I am no aircraft engineer but know through reading that the space is the biggest constraint with JF17 as it would require a tailor made AESA which will be difficult and cost prohibitive. The increase size/dia would require wind tunnel testing etc so better start now, the sooner the better.
2) Wing span.... Wing span needs to be increased by 10%... this would give JF17 space for extra fuel and may be 2 more hard points underneath.
3) A dedicated pod point near air inlet... for targeting pod +/- IRST if it is not installed in nose cone. Turkish solution (aeselpod) is cheap but not tested... have it evaluated... compare it with chinese options..try to get your local people on board as well ... when u have 2 or 3 products in competition you will end up with a better solution and will also help local industry.
4) RD93-MA.... AESA, more wing area and pods integration would need power. get a RD93-MA only if they help us with an overhaul facility. if they do not then opt for the chinese or the ukranian option. Russians will come to the table once you start discussing the alternatives. bargain hard... work hard and we will get the MA version. chinese engines should not be considered at this stage in time.
5) Look into the possibility of having the landing gear in the wings... just like the Gripen NG. if this increased the round clearance and also increased the fuel storage capacity without requiring extensive wind tunnel testing then it would be better. Increasing ground clearance can be utilized for a multiple rack with 3 missiles rather than 2.
6) ECM. news related to Indra has been circulating for a while now... indra is good for block 2... for block 3 why not set up a joint project with Turky or italy.. under a venture from either side. even if you fail, even then our people will get valuable knowledge and we still have indra as plan B.

c) New platform: J31, if it can be matted with the same engine as that of block 3 should be considered. this should not be a problem. J20 is highly doubtful as it will be the F22 of China. if J31 does not meet the required results then turkish option should be considered. become a partner and insist that the PK version should have the engine of ur choice with commonality b/w two aircrafts. whatever aircraft we should choose must have local input of some components from Pakistan. MRF may or may not be available by the time these aircrafts are ready.

d) F16. Enough of F16s. no need going for newer ones with your money. if it comes via FMF fine and we should take them with open arms.. if it does not then what we have is sufficient. Priority for any and every peeny should be JF17. if we can get an aesa on F16.... go for it. its better to have 18+8(possibly) with AESA rather than 24/36 more f16s without aesa.

e) Mirage.... if we can find used/old mirage.. fine... cannibalize them and keep about 36 mirage in perfect condition. they should serve you for a decade at least. Install 2 fuel tanks on each aircraft with bvr missiles and use them for buddy to buddy refuelling of JF17. fast, robust and with decent protection. Compared to Mirage IL-78s are like sitting duck in sky. the same aircraft can be used for defence as well.

I will take the liberty to slightly steer off topic here. mods i believe this is in direct correlation to what i have written above.
Security:
India and associates would love to hold us back with security fiascos every now and then. moreover the above can not be accomplished without improving security and economy. For security we need a thorough clean up and a completion of zarb e azab operation. zarb e azab should be continued in interior sindh, punjab and balochistan. this would also reduce corruption as well as most of the idiots in parliment support these people.
Where ever possible we need to entrench our border with Iran and afghanistan. work in this regard is ongoing. we need helicopters with decent radars and thermal image cameras for rangers. what heli we should choose must have maximum commonality with the Hind or the new heli we choose for PA. same engine alone would be a gr8 help.
Economy
thanks to CPEC we will be in a take off position provided we dont mess it up. Tax collection should be the biggest priority for us. its a shame that only 18 lacs pay taxes, amongst which... more than or close to 80% are people whose tax is deducted at source. Thousands alone are buying audis, mercs, Beemers, Bently, Ferraris etc... thousand more buy from stores which sell house hold electronics like sonos faber etc... thousands of people live in 3 kanal plus (1500 sq yard) houses in DHAs and similar socities where cost of plot only is 100 million plus... Tax them. Tax the doctors, tax the hospitals (Private hospitals pay very little tax), tax the lawyers and most of all tax anyone with land above 1,000 or max 2,000 acres.

 

[zebra7]

The FGFA is good 15-20 yrs away by that time PAF would be considering TFX or some 6th Gen weapon systems.

Back up you claim with facts.
TFX is still in Papers, and for Sixth Gen Weapon System, first you need 5th Generation equipments.

Of most, what is likely to be declare would be the J-31, as the Rafale Killer soon -- Rest Assure in Your Media and forums.

As quoted earlier 4 th generation are a must for Indian Air Force but for PAF there is no need because it has got two already.

Have you read my whole post https://defence.pk/threads/paf-the-...les-sale-to-india.427156/page-10#post-8250402

1. So you don't Consider LCA Tejas Mk-1 as 4th Generation combat Plane. Always remember Dhruv takes decades to be build by HAL with many ups and downs, but check out the LCH, LUH, LAH latter on.
2. Read about the Combat HAWK, and the LCA Mk-1 Trainer as the LIFT cum CAS platform.
3. Pls also consider the modernization of Mig 29 to MIG 29 UPG, Jaguar to Jaguar Darin -3 and Mirrage 2000 H to Mirrage 2005 standard Upgradation, been done by India, which is going on as we speak.
4. Pls consider the LCA MK-2 updates, which will have the first flight by 2018-19, Indegineous Uttam AESA, DRDO AWAACS, of which 6 are Airbus 330 based, Tanker Fleets, Transportation fleet Upgradation and modernisation.

 

[Spectre]

Apolgies but there is no ramification whatsoever. Total war is not possible due to nuclear deterrent and in case of low lying fruits like Kargil or CSD under nuclear overhang Rafales don't bring any significant change to the assets India already has and defences Pakistan has.

Rafales primarily are intended to cover the growing deficit vis-a-vis China

 

[Immanuel]

IAF orders will be much more than 126 so the Indian navy can wait for Rafale M

And if navy is really keen on Rafale
we can shift a few Mig 29 K to the IAF and use them on Vikramaditya and Vikrant

If and when ( say 10 years from now )
an Indian Carrier Battle group moves in the Pacific
along with US navy and Japanese navy then the Navy will prefer to
have Rafales BECAUSE they are compatible with US navy carriers

French Rafales have used US navy carriers ; so too can Indian Rafales do the same

Now we are OFFICIALLY in an alliance

Well if the INS Vishal is indeed made with the help of US technology, the chances are the F-35C will be on it instead of the Rafale, again the timelines are not condusive for a 4.5 gen aircraft to be picked when 5th gen aircraft are available readily around 2027. As for shifting Mig-29K to the IAF won't happen. The Navy's Mig-29Ks areFOC with Navy specific weaponry including anti ship missiles. Facts remain, 45 Mig-29K will be deployed on the INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant ADS and the Navy won't have the Rafale atleast not till 2027 and thats a big if. Expect US to hardsell the F-35C for the INS Vishal.

As for IAF's order, 126-190 Rafales regardless of being made in India will cost a shit ton while pretty much blowing a wide hole in budgets for other projects. For the moment, 126 fighters can be considered a limit till atleast the % of GDP allocated to defnece goes up to atleast 5%

Compatibility has nothing to do with acquring the Rafale for Navy, the Navy will not use its platforms from US carriers.

 

[MKC]

The FGFA is good 15-20 yrs away by that time PAF would be considering TFX or some 6th Gen weapon systems.

As quoted earlier 4 th generation are a must for Indian Air Force but for PAF there is no need because it has got two already.


Please read my reply to @Humble Analyst post # 140 above.

Surgical strikes can only be a short term solution but not permanent.

It's 2016 & you are talking about 2031-2036 or what will happen after 15-20 years.
IAF currently has 69 Mig-29 which was originally built to counter F-16, as old as F-16s of PAF, till now only 76+8 F-16 a& 66 JF-17 are operational.
312 MKIs on order, 242 already operational, may be more ordered to keep production line operational till FGFA starts production.
IN has 45 Mig-29K which is much better than Mig-29, you know at least 45 more aircraft will be ordered for IAC-I.
IAF is not going to stop to 36 Rafales MMRCA was for 126+63 aircraft that will be bought before AMCA comes.
You are right in 2031 PAF will be considering TFX for AMCA or FGFA as it is considering F-16 or JF17 today for Rafales.

 

[Immanuel]

Yes I am very serious about it, the Plan for IAF is 189 birds. Rafale-M is not selected yet, but most likely it would and I have already given you the reason why it would. The other Carrier based combat planes are :

1. F-18 SH
2. SU-33
3. Mig 29 K
4. J-15
5. F-35 C

Of which Rafale-M gives most advantage for the value of Money, and have good growth potential in the future without signing any deals.

1. .What makes you think Rafale won't get the future upgrade, with the uprated M88 engine upgradation.

2. Why do you expect every Rafale as the fly away, and not build by the Green Field manufactured in India under MII by the Pvt company choosen by Dassault.

3. What makes you think AMCA is in desperate urgency, and India, can't wait till 2030 for AMCA and why can't Dassault help India, in building AMCA or the Naval AMCA for Carrier Operations.

4. Su-30 Retirement ?? Are You Kidding --- Pls follow the Super Sukhoi 30 MKI deep Upgradation/MLU Plan which will make Su- 30 MKI at par with the SU-35. Do you think Su-35 is inferior Jet ?

5. Indian/ IAF is not Interested in PAK FA, it is meant for RuSAF, India is Interested in 144 FGFA, and FGFA and PAK FA both are different Planes derived from the T-50 Prototype, which is in development in Russia, as JV of India and Russia. It will only become the Air Superiority/ Air Defense 5th Generation Stealth/ VLO combat aircraft. India will customized FGFA just like, what it did with the Su 30 MKI. And Pls provide the source, of your thinking, that Russia do not what to share its so called technology -- And what technology ?

You forget the INS Vishal won't be ready till atleast 2028, in those timelines, the Rafale for the Navy makes no sense. The Navy will end up either buying Naval AMCA or F-35C considering the next carrier is being built with US, expect US to hardsell the F-35. As for 189 Rafales, thats questionable, let's wait till the first 36 are ordered and see if the line for 90 MII is set-up. Though 180 Rafales are a welcome number, not sure if budgets support it. I think 126 Rafales is already a good number.

 

[zebra7]

You forget the INS Vishal won't be ready till atleast 2028, in those timelines, the Rafale for the Navy makes no sense. The Navy will end up either buying Naval AMCA or F-35C considering the next carrier is being built with US, expect US to hardsell the F-35. As for 189 Rafales, thats questionable, let's wait till the first 36 are ordered and see if the line for 90 MII is set-up. Though 180 Rafales are a welcome number, not sure if budgets support it. I think 126 Rafales is already a good number.

The answer would be offtopic, qoute me on the relevalent thread, and I will answer to your queries.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The Navy's Mig-29Ks areFOC with Navy specific weaponry including anti ship missiles.

Mig 29 K is an excellent Air to Air FIGHTER ALSO with a good range

It can be shifted to IAF with some modifications to the Landing gear
which was built as per carrier specifications

For Instance the Navy would like IAF to give top cover from the Jamnagar base which
is very close to Karachi

And we know PAF JF 17 are carrying Anti Ship Missiles

SO the Mig 29 K can do this job of giving air cover to Navy ships
while flying from LAND

And India - US relations will only get stronger

Indian Rafale -M will land on US carriers

have you heard the Term : INTER OPERATIBILITY

It means being able to work together in times of need

That is what we are doing when we do Naval exercises with US navy

Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Malabar
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Immanuel

This discussion should be moved to the Relevant thread
We have gone seriously OFF Topic

 

[zebra7]

Nice effort and contribution and thanks.

IMO the threat from Rafael will be a factor in 2019/20 and right now we need to worry about other modifications and arsenal that IAF and IN has.
Pakistan needs development on all the 3 fronts i.e PN, PAF and PA... there needs to be a consistent and a stubborn approach to get the best of what is available...

Actually the words should be -- Since Rafale is already on the Active duty with the French airforce, and IAF already operating Mirrage 2000, so IAF can imediately Induct Rafale into active service or duty.

a) air defence needs immediate attention. be it S350, panister, Aster, Spada... bottom line we need air defence with medium range capability to say the least. What ever we choose should be in addition to HQ-9 and the number of batteries should be sufficient to cause a sufficient threat.

Now lets talk Serious things, and I might be banned by the MODS but I will make it very clear.

1. No HQ-9 is going to be exported to Pakistan.or any country because its a reverse engineered S-300, with IPR voilation, and now China have agreed with the Russia with the Su-35 deal, is no more IPR violation, so forget any further news of FT-2000/HQ-9 to Turkey, IRAN or Pakistan what so ever.

2. Similarly forget any Sino- Flankers like J-11, J-16 due to IPR violation and no Chinese HOBS Missile like PL-8, because it is a direct license production of the Python -3 WVR Missile.

3. China is far behind in the nose Mounted AESA Radar Tech. and even Russians lags the algorithm required to locate Ground target, and interleave operation of the AESA , its better to look toward, the western Radars and avionics for the JF-17 future blocks.

PAF:
a) JF17 (Block 2). Continue fine tunning the block 2 and upgrading all aircrafts to block 2 standard. this will bring our basic fighters to a better standard as compared to A-5 or F7 / F7P that they will replace.

b) JF17 (block 3)... this should be a sufficiently modified aircraft... the base structure and architecture should be the same but two critical areas need to be looked at
1) Nose cone... Nose cone dia should be increased by lets say 15% giving it ample space for an AESA... and may be, just may be an IRST... We need a good AESA with solid performance. JF17 will be not reach its potential till we get it an aesa.
For aesa talk to chinese, italians, turkish etc and have a joint venture... we are producing Grifo.. have the AESA made in Pakistan and help local industry as well. its these small steps that will make us proud later.
I am no aircraft engineer but know through reading that the space is the biggest constraint with JF17 as it would require a tailor made AESA which will be difficult and cost prohibitive. The increase size/dia would require wind tunnel testing etc so better start now, the sooner the better.
2) Wing span.... Wing span needs to be increased by 10%... this would give JF17 space for extra fuel and may be 2 more hard points underneath.
3) A dedicated pod point near air inlet... for targeting pod +/- IRST if it is not installed in nose cone. Turkish solution (aeselpod) is cheap but not tested... have it evaluated... compare it with chinese options..try to get your local people on board as well ... when u have 2 or 3 products in competition you will end up with a better solution and will also help local industry.
4) RD93-MA.... AESA, more wing area and pods integration would need power. get a RD93-MA only if they help us with an overhaul facility. if they do not then opt for the chinese or the ukranian option. Russians will come to the table once you start discussing the alternatives. bargain hard... work hard and we will get the MA version. chinese engines should not be considered at this stage in time.
5) Look into the possibility of having the landing gear in the wings... just like the Gripen NG. if this increased the round clearance and also increased the fuel storage capacity without requiring extensive wind tunnel testing then it would be better. Increasing ground clearance can be utilized for a multiple rack with 3 missiles rather than 2.
6) ECM. news related to Indra has been circulating for a while now... indra is good for block 2... for block 3 why not set up a joint project with Turky or italy.. under a venture from either side. even if you fail, even then our people will get valuable knowledge and we still have indra as plan B.

c) New platform: J31, if it can be matted with the same engine as that of block 3 should be considered. this should not be a problem. J20 is highly doubtful as it will be the F22 of China. if J31 does not meet the required results then turkish option should be considered. become a partner and insist that the PK version should have the engine of ur choice with commonality b/w two aircrafts. whatever aircraft we should choose must have local input of some components from Pakistan. MRF may or may not be available by the time these aircrafts are ready.

d) F16. Enough of F16s. no need going for newer ones with your money. if it comes via FMF fine and we should take them with open arms.. if it does not then what we have is sufficient. Priority for any and every peeny should be JF17. if we can get an aesa on F16.... go for it. its better to have 18+8(possibly) with AESA rather than 24/36 more f16s without aesa.

e) Mirage.... if we can find used/old mirage.. fine... cannibalize them and keep about 36 mirage in perfect condition. they should serve you for a decade at least. Install 2 fuel tanks on each aircraft with bvr missiles and use them for buddy to buddy refuelling of JF17. fast, robust and with decent protection. Compared to Mirage IL-78s are like sitting duck in sky. the same aircraft can be used for defence as well.

I will take the liberty to slightly steer off topic here. mods i believe this is in direct correlation to what i have written above.

This is what won't be there if PAF would have chosen J-10 and should have equipped the PAF with a single engine, Multirole fighter jets Like J-10 only, like what French did by putting all the eggs in one basket Mirrage 2000, and now Rafale, and Turkish airforce with F-16, because small airforce, should only maintain a single Multirole fighter Plane and should avoid, the Role based Specific fighter plane fleets.

 

[Immanuel]

Mig 29 K is an excellent Air to Air FIGHTER ALSO with a good range

It can be shifted to IAF with some modifications to the Landing gear
which was built as per carrier specifications

For Instance the Navy would like IAF to give top cover from the Jamnagar base which
is very close to Karachi

And we know PAF JF 17 are carrying Anti Ship Missiles

SO the Mig 29 K can do this job of giving air cover to Navy ships
while flying from LAND

And India - US relations will only get stronger

Indian Rafale -M will land on US carriers

have you heard the Term : INTER OPERATIBILITY

It means being able to work together in times of need

That is what we are doing when we do Naval exercises with US navy

Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Malabar
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Immanuel

This discussion should be moved to the Relevant thread
We have gone seriously OFF Topic

Won't happen, the Mig-29K will remain a strictly Naval aircraft. As for Indian Rafales on US carriers won't happen because we are not even sure the Rafale will be acquired in those timelines where Naval AMCA, F-35C and Naval FGFA are available. You're hoping for interoperability but that will only happen if we sign CISMOA and that won't happen either unless the text is re-written without intrusive clauses. We have denied request for joint patrols, joint fighter ops from the same carrier is out of the question for now even during excercises.