PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Gomig-21]

Hi,

After 9/11---paf checked out the Gripen. They went for the Mirage 2K but the french offered them the Rafale---. Paf checked it out---but refused it.

What exactly did the PAF not like about the Rafale back in the early 2000s?

And what did they not like about the Gripen? It would be interesting to know the specifics.

.,.,.

One of the better improvements IMO from the A to the C is the intake design, particularly the DSI inlet. A simple thing like the angled opening makes a huge aesthetic difference. And for the Chinese to have come up with all the research and performing all the required testing to make the divertless air work with all the potential boundary layer problems caused from extreme airspeeds (not only supersonic but even subsonic & slow speed) is remarkable. Just that aspect of aerodynamics is exceptionally difficult to adapt even if you have all sorts of models to copy from. There's quite a bit of literature and patents written on that specific subject and seeing how the Chinese have easily & successfully adapted it to not only to the J-10, but also the J-20 and even J-31/35 is remarkable.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What exactly did the PAF not like about the Rafale back in the early 2000s?

And what did they not like about the Gripen? It would be interesting to know the specifics.



One of the better improvements IMO from the A to the C is the intake design, particularly the DSI inlet. A simple thing like the angled opening makes a huge aesthetic difference. And for the Chinese to have come up with all the research and performing all the required testing to make the divertless air work with all the potential boundary layer problems caused from extreme airspeeds (not only supersonic but even subsonic & slow speed) is remarkable. Just that aspect of aerodynamics is exceptionally difficult to adapt even if you have all sorts of models to copy from. There's quite a bit of literature and patents written on that specific subject and seeing how the Chinese have easily & successfully adapted it to not only to the J-10, but also the J-20 and even J-31/35 is remarkable.

...don't forget the JF-17...it also has DSI.

 

[MastanKhan]

What exactly did the PAF not like about the Rafale back in the early 2000s?

And what did they not like about the Gripen? It would be interesting to know the specifics.



One of the better improvements IMO from the A to the C is the intake design, particularly the DSI inlet. A simple thing like the angled opening makes a huge aesthetic difference. And for the Chinese to have come up with all the research and performing all the required testing to make the divertless air work with all the potential boundary layer problems caused from extreme airspeeds (not only supersonic but even subsonic & slow speed) is remarkable. Just that aspect of aerodynamics is exceptionally difficult to adapt even if you have all sorts of models to copy from. There's quite a bit of literature and patents written on that specific subject and seeing how the Chinese have easily & successfully adapted it to not only to the J-10, but also the J-20 and even J-31/35 is remarkable.

Hi,

I have written about it a lot over a decade ago---.

The PAf never understood or comprehend the threat it was facing from india---. For them---in their naivety peace deal would be signed soon---so they kept their primary focus on building their own aircraft.

The grippen was tested---so was the rafale---.

France was doing a big deal with pakistan---Air bus aircaft---a package of submarines possibly & fighter aircraft---. Paf wanted the M2K's---but as the french had switched over or were switching over---they wanted PAF to be the launch customer for the Rafale---and as you might know---rafale had no buyers at that time---and france was desperately looking for buyers---. The production had come down to 1 aircraft a month and pretty soon the industry would be starting to lose engineers---.

The US promised direct flights from pakistan to USA if pak bought the Boeing 777's---. Pak cancelled the proceeding with the french and went with the USA---. Direct flights to USA never happened---.

PAF had 5 billion dollars in the kitty for an aircraft till 2005.

Then a massive earthquake happened---and as they were so sure that peace with indian be signed right away---they donated the 5 billion to charity where it got looted and plundered by the civilians.

 

[Gomig-21]

...don't forget the JF-17...it also has DSI.

Yes, thanks for the reminder. Also reminds me of a short clip I just saw on the 4 JF-17s that came to Bright Star and flew with EAF F-16s. Don't know if it was posted on the JF-17 thread but I'll try and post it there at some point. It's short but some great footage of the pre-flight briefing of the drivers then manning the aircraft and then some great in-cockpit filming.

I was wondering if and how they would manage such a cooperative exercise with the IAF also participating with 4 of their MiG-29 UPGs. Honestly, I was hoping to see some collaboration but then I was quickly grounded back to reality! It was incredible that the two were even there considering the practical state of war that exists. Maybe next time ISA.

Hi,

I have written about it a lot over a decade ago---.

The PAf never understood or comprehend the threat it was facing from india---. For them---in their naivety peace deal would be signed soon---so they kept their primary focus on building their own aircraft.

The grippen was tested---so was the rafale---.

France was doing a big deal with pakistan---Air bus aircaft---a package of submarines possibly & fighter aircraft---. Paf wanted the M2K's---but as the french had switched over or were switching over---they wanted PAF to be the launch customer for the Rafale---and as you might know---rafale had no buyers at that time---and france was desperately looking for buyers---. The production had come down to 1 aircraft a month and pretty soon the industry would be starting to lose engineers---.

So it sounds like it wasn't really anything specific about either of those aircraft. It makes sense if the PAF was keen on acquiring the Mirage 2K and Dassault was pushing the Rafale at a much higher price that the PAF would say screw you. Perhaps that was the reason why the Egyptian Mirage 5s transfer to Pakistan never materialized. France might've bitched about it and caused unwanted friction. Unless that specific deal was just a rumor.

 

[MastanKhan]

What exactly did the PAF not like about the Rafale back in the early 2000s?

And what did they not like about the Gripen? It would be interesting to know the specifics.

Hi,

It was not about liking those aircraft---but getting the technical know how---. Both are exceptional aircrafts.

PAF had decided to build their own aircraft---the JF17---

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Hi,

It was not about liking those aircraft---but getting the technical know how---. Both are exceptional aircrafts.

PAF had decided to build their own aircraft---the JF17---

PAF was actively looking for the fighter aircraft in the 90's. The gripen was never going to be approved as it had US components, most importantly its engine.

PAF started JF-17 project because of hard and harsh lessons learned for complete dependency on the west. It was single most greatest decision of PAF to go for self sufficiency (atleast at some levels). It was also feared that PAF entire F-16 fleet may be grounded because of lack of spare & maintenance. All those lessons paved the way for JF-17. PAF also needed aircrafts in large numbers which could fill up the required number of squadrons. JF-17 was the most perfect aircraft that could make sense as its way more cost effective than any western aircrafts.

Even with large number of JF-17s inducted we are still struggling to phase out the 2nd generation F-7s and Mirages. Imagine if we would not have made such a decision, how dire the situation would have become.

However, I recall the big rumoured deal in those days with france involving airbuses and defence products. Rafales could have been a choice for PAF's high end platform.

JF-17s were supposed to replace all the legacy 2nd and 3rd generation fighters. PAF didn't selected JF-17s in place of Rafales. JF-17s had to come anyway, they had their own role. That's self sufficiency, being dependent in times of embargoes and filling up required number of squadrons.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

I have written about it a lot over a decade ago---.

The PAf never understood or comprehend the threat it was facing from india---. For them---in their naivety peace deal would be signed soon---so they kept their primary focus on building their own aircraft.

The grippen was tested---so was the rafale---.

France was doing a big deal with pakistan---Air bus aircaft---a package of submarines possibly & fighter aircraft---. Paf wanted the M2K's---but as the french had switched over or were switching over---they wanted PAF to be the launch customer for the Rafale---and as you might know---rafale had no buyers at that time---and france was desperately looking for buyers---. The production had come down to 1 aircraft a month and pretty soon the industry would be starting to lose engineers---.

The US promised direct flights from pakistan to USA if pak bought the Boeing 777's---. Pak cancelled the proceeding with the french and went with the USA---. Direct flights to USA never happened---.

PAF had 5 billion dollars in the kitty for an aircraft till 2005.

Then a massive earthquake happened---and as they were so sure that peace with indian be signed right away---they donated the 5 billion to charity where it got looted and plundered by the civilians.

Better late than never. At the least the PAF is now entwined with the Turkish military industrial complex. And, if they can now put the Chinese connections in the mix it'll do wonders....

As for the USA, now they're 100% into this post-modern version of the Israeli-Arab conflict, which will continue for a long time. Last time, the USA had to go forgo even the Vietnam war (thanks to the combined "salvos" from the "media" highlighting the inhumanity) to cater for the Israeli needs following the 1967 Arab-Isarel war. Both Russia and China won the last time. Let's see what happens this time....

 

[MastanKhan]

Better late than never. At the least the PAF is now entwined with the Turkish military industrial complex. And, if they can now put the Chinese connections in the mix it'll do wonders....

Hi,

Alliance with Turkiye was a God sent surprise---a Turkish delight.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Hi,

Alliance with Turkiye was a God sent surprise---a Turkish delight.

Indeed, and don't forget our Chinese friends as well.

PAF J-10C Fighters being equipped with purely Chinese systems are completely compatible and interoperable with PLAAF jets.

This gives PAF a significant strategic edge in case it wants to team up with its long-trusted ally in case of any conflict.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

J10CP armed with PL-10 & PL-15 on CAP.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

Beauty lies in the eyes of beholder.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

The Canard Delta LO Airframe Omni role 4.5+ Generation fighter jet has some surprise capabilities in store as well.

"A ghost in the sky " - as per PAF Viper Pilots now flying Dragon.

 

[siegecrossbow]

J10CP armed with PL-10 & PL-15 on CAP.
View attachment 962671

That’s a PLAAF J-10 pilot. Look at his badge…

 

[MastanKhan]

PAF was actively looking for the fighter aircraft in the 90's. The gripen was never going to be approved as it had US components, most importantly its engine.

PAF started JF-17 project because of hard and harsh lessons learned for complete dependency on the west. It was single most greatest decision of PAF to go for self sufficiency (atleast at some levels). It was also feared that PAF entire F-16 fleet may be grounded because of lack of spare & maintenance. All those lessons paved the way for JF-17. PAF also needed aircrafts in large numbers which could fill up the required number of squadrons. JF-17 was the most perfect aircraft that could make sense as its way more cost effective than any western aircrafts.

Even with large number of JF-17s inducted we are still struggling to phase out the 2nd generation F-7s and Mirages. Imagine if we would not have made such a decision, how dire the situation would have become.

However, I recall the big rumoured deal in those days with france involving airbuses and defence products. Rafales could have been a choice for PAF's high end platform.

JF-17s were supposed to replace all the legacy 2nd and 3rd generation fighters. PAF didn't selected JF-17s in place of Rafales. JF-17s had to come anyway, they had their own role. That's self sufficiency, being dependent in times of embargoes and filling up required number of squadrons.

Hi,

PAF jumped into the JF17 project EYES closed---. The aircraft was ready but no engine available---the aircraft was ready but no EW package---.

The paf was so stupid---that after it sabotaged its deal with the french over Rafale---it went back to the french for the EW package for the JF17 and expected fracnce to fulfill its demand---.

I can fill up pages with the f'---kups but---.