White and Green with M/S
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2020
- Messages
- 7,946
- Reaction score
- -3
- Country
- Location
not possible
PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion
- Thread starter RIP Pak LAW
- Start date
python-000
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2017
- Messages
- 2,279
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
Kindly noted here we are not talking about Amrica we are talking about CHINA the Best Friend of Pakistan...
White and Green with M/S
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2020
- Messages
- 7,946
- Reaction score
- -3
- Country
- Location
they have to induct J-10C in large number in PLAAF replacing F-7 F-8, then they will give it to Pakistan and I know China is best fired of PakistanKindly noted here we are not talking about Amrica we are talking about CHINA the Best Friend of Pakistan...
ghazi52
PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2007
- Messages
- 102,921
- Reaction score
- 106
- Country
- Location
Just to refresh information...
The first J-10 prototype #1001 in the Chinese Flight Test Establishment.
1996 - The first prototype ‘1001’ reportedly made its maiden flight but the design was not entirely successful.
In 1987 China obtained some technologies of the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) Lavi (“Lion”) fighter. The Lavi development began in October 1982 under the help of the United States, and the aircraft made the first flight in December 1986. However, the U.S. was not prepared to finance an aircraft that would compete in export market with the F-16C/D and F/A/-18C/D, and a dispute arose to the final cost.
The Israeli Government was unable to finance the project along and the development programme was finally cancelled in 1987.
China was believed to have received the software originally developed for Lavi’s “fly-by-wire” control system shortly after its cancellation, despite denial of such cooperation by both sides.
The first J-10 prototype #1001 in the Chinese Flight Test Establishment.
1996 - The first prototype ‘1001’ reportedly made its maiden flight but the design was not entirely successful.
In 1987 China obtained some technologies of the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) Lavi (“Lion”) fighter. The Lavi development began in October 1982 under the help of the United States, and the aircraft made the first flight in December 1986. However, the U.S. was not prepared to finance an aircraft that would compete in export market with the F-16C/D and F/A/-18C/D, and a dispute arose to the final cost.
The Israeli Government was unable to finance the project along and the development programme was finally cancelled in 1987.
China was believed to have received the software originally developed for Lavi’s “fly-by-wire” control system shortly after its cancellation, despite denial of such cooperation by both sides.
伝説のネコ神様
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- May 21, 2018
- Messages
- 5
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
I was actually quite surprised this deal went through, I always think J-10C is not most ideal candidate to suite PAF's need. PAF have tendency to prefer multi-role fighter, it is understandable decision due to their doctrine. In other hand J-10C despite having certain capability to preform ground assault and other duty, it is originally design as frontline Air Superiority fighter. I'm not sure it is due to PAF F16 unable to get upgrade package or because Indian's refale increasingly to possess threat. But I am happy this deal went through. Also I'm keen to see PAF provide more suggestion and idea to China to improve the product, after Z-10ME's history, I find Pakistan's suggestion on the product really helpful to china to make their product more mature.
araz
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2006
- Messages
- 9,291
- Reaction score
- 81
The threat the Rafale poses the uncertainty around US sanctions in case of hostilities, lack of upgrades to the F16s and inability to build up enough numbers of JFT rapidly enough to shore up numbers are all reasons for the J10C induction. These reasons in totality make a case for a J10 acquisition sound. As to Z10ME the PAA has given its input and our brothers have modified it. I do not know whether tests have been conducted for the newer 0latform and what the outcome is.
A
Bilal Khan (Quwa)
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2016
- Messages
- 7,004
- Reaction score
- 97
- Country
- Location
The PAF will mainly use the J-10CE for air-to-air for the time being.
CSAW
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2022
- Messages
- 907
- Reaction score
- 1
- Country
- Location
歼-10 殲-10 Vigorous Dragon 猛龙
J-10A & J-10C are different beasts.
J-10A was designed & deployed as High Speed A2A Interceptor - Air Superiority Fighter as a replacement to long-term solution for the PLAAF’s legacy J-7 and J-6 interceptors and Q-5 attackers, all of which are derived from Soviet designs from the 1950s.
"Way back about 40 years ago In 1981, PLAAF Commander Tingfa Zhang gave formal proposal of a third-generation fighter with modern technologies instead of MiG-15 / 19 / 21 tech. This proposal went ahead but with one major departure from the previous methodologies -The approved supplier will now be responsible in working directly with the customer demands ; which basically allowed the PLAAF to communicate its precise requirements and ensure they were met; Whereas in previous development projects - The suppliers were responsible to their " Management agency", which sometimes produce products that 100% failed to meet end user requirements."
When the J-10 fighter was being developed, it was built to serve as an air-superiority fighter to counter to Soviet fighter jets. However, the collapse of the Soviet Union altered China’s threat assessments and subsequently, the J-10 evolved.
The development & deployment of Mach 2.2 Delta Dasher " Vigorous Dragon J-10A " as Air Superiority Fighter was as per requirements of PLAAF - They had other options available for A2G Duties.
A ‘ Tail-less design with canard fore-planes with a swept - back vertical tail & the Pure Delta Wing’"gives the J-10 Stability even at low speed for ground attack. Delta winged platforms are known for carrying BIG payloads [our own Old Delta Mirage for one] -
Hence it was more of the Customer PLAAF requirement forcing it to A2A , rather taking anything away from the capability available in the airframe .
J-10C is an altogether different Fighter jet to its 'A model ', with Engineering modifications, Space considerations and provisions kept available to incorporate all the evolution & advancements of future 20 - 40 years - Be it The Multi role capabilities.
"....J-10B, features a host of improvements ; The 1035 prototype of the J-10B first flew in December 2008 and entered service in 2014. In late 2017, J-10B prototype serial 1034 made its first flight with a TVC nozzle equipped variant of the domestic WS-10 engine. Slightly less than one year later, on day one of Zhuhai 2018, serial 1034 was among the first aircraft performances of the morning.
The most immediately apparent modification is the addition of a diverter-less supersonic inlet, which should help to reduce the aircraft’s radar cross section while reducing weight and complexity—but at the price of some degraded high speed performance. The J-10B incorporates an infrared search and track (IRST) with an added laser rangefinder plus an indigenous passive electronically scanned array (PESA) fire-control radar that is allegedly capable of engaging 4 targets simultaneously. It also incorporates a much more capable electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) suite."
—Zhang Jigao Deputy Cjief Designer for J - 10 Jets.
During the transformation from A version to C version , PLAAF had its other options for A2A maturing such as Chinese upgraded Flanker Variants or Premium Killer J-20 - Hence the Multi role capabilities of J-10C also became better and effective. The current KLJ-10A Type 14-XX AESA Radar with >1200 T-R Modules has SAR Capabilities - GDJ-5 twin munition adapter makes a big difference.
=================================
Regarding the induction in PAF - A future iteration of F-16 or a maximum upgrade to Viper Standards [with SLEP] incorporating Latest Radars, Pods, AIM-120 C7 / AIM-9X etc as much as possible would have been the most logical solution . Reasons being
-Logistical, Storage, Training, Spares, Munitions costs already incurred up to a major extent
-Known Capabilities and Ready deployment Playbook in Package formation
-Utilization of Coalition Support Fund
-Western Capabilities/ Hardware and opportunities to jointly train with European Operators learning practicing those skills.
-Diversified Portfolio of Sources in Procurement
But then their were huge Road Blocks , such as :
-End User Agreements restricting the deployment
-Non Availability of certain capabilities or being capped such as S.E.A.D or HARM / IRST / SOW / Anti Ship to name a few.
-All future upgrades & weapons integration limited / restricted due to requirement of manufacturer Source codes
-Sanctions & Threats to block spares
-Geo Political situation
================================
"....Pakistan reportedly first showed interest in the J-10 in 2006, and the first iterations of the fighters date back to 1988 when China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation built the first model. While Pakistan’s Full Spectrum Deterrence posture has often been seen in light of its nuclear component—meant to deter an Indian conventional attack—Pakistan has also worked to respond to any major Indian military acquisition and deny air-superiority. With this in purview, Pakistan’s acquisition of the J-10 fighter conforms to the same logic of Pakistan’s denial of comprehensive advantage to India...."
PAF was "Actively" looking at the J-10 development program for atleast > 15 years ; Unofficial reports claim PAF providing 'key insights and feedback' on basis of its long term experience of using F-16s and hence the deal was always on the cards.The considerably lower cost of induction / operation vs any European / Western Platform and a certain flexibility to induct SOW / SEAD / HARM / Anti ship etc of Choice with permission of China due to strategic partnership was always a key benefit.
For the last decade , there are NO major announcements or 'formal news channels' from Pakistan Military about its inductions and it takes many years or leaks or educated guess work to pinpoint the options being marked for future [VT-4, HQ-9 etc being examples]. J-10 was on the cards...
There are lots of present & future operational benefits.
==================================
Strategic factors also contribute -- J-10 fighter deal also strengthens the ever-growing strategic partnership between Pakistan and China, its largest defense partner. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) from 2016 to 2020, 38% of China’s total arms exports went to Pakistan, and military aviation was an important part of it.
#Inter-operatability concept is a key factor when we consider HQ-9, VT-4,Naval Assets etc and J-10C in that respect.
================================
The availability of Efficient mature Chinese power plant with improved MTBF / MTTR compared to when it was in its initial stages and matured second generation of Chinese AESA were the defining factors.
Given the sweeping impact of today’s technology, ‘Air power’ has unquestionably taken a position of dominance in changing the very nature of warfare.
Hence, any nation that aspires to enhance its influence beyond its frontiers; Ought to have an advanced, capable, strong and a viable Air Force.Air Superiority or air dominance will remain the main mission of air power, although UAVs, UCAVs, Stand - off Weapons, Satellites, and Cruise Missiles may be increasingly employed to reinforce the manned aircraft and the missiles.
So that's How PAF would likely foresee J-10CP -Initially in Package as Air Superiority fighter jet [Offensive Option] with F-16 Block 52s [ Defensive Offense ] and JF-17 Thunder Block III equipped with SOW / PL-15s as and when situation demands. JF-17 Thunders are serving PAF by providing adequate Multi Role capabilities for the time being.
The long range stick capability would put the opposing fighters in defensive position and certainly things have changed for the good since the Kargil scenario.
J-10C fared well in limited exercises it was put into operation.
http://defensepoliticsasia.com/exer...j11-34-42-thai-gripen-full-translated-report/
Pakistan's eastern neighbors would thrash the induction tagging it UnProven - going to an extent of calling it Chinese trash and calling Rafale as God's creation. This is the same rhetoric heard about "Raptor of the east", till the myth was busted in Swift Retort.The current performance of Russian Flankers in Ukraine war has exposed whatever was left in that bubble.
The Super Thunder III - J-10CP Combo in packaged formation with Airborne / Ground EW & AEW&C Assets, Training and effective deployment strategies is a Capability which has created new set of headaches.
PAF has a history of working out the max application of a Platform to its advantage - meaning if there is some modification work required to Tune wire or panel or attachment or fixture etc to hang the A2G munitions in more effective manner , so be it -- that could be achieved with the assistance of Chinese engineers.
The numbers quoted initially such as 25 or 36 should NOT be counted as final quantity ; The units would certainly grow considering PAF doesn't go for less than 80 -90 platforms when it inducts a new platform and invests on it.
The Pakistani nation could see "New Delta J-10C/P " transforms as a FORCE Multiplier for PAF when numbers increase until Something 'new comes in'.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
J-10A & J-10C are different beasts.
J-10A was designed & deployed as High Speed A2A Interceptor - Air Superiority Fighter as a replacement to long-term solution for the PLAAF’s legacy J-7 and J-6 interceptors and Q-5 attackers, all of which are derived from Soviet designs from the 1950s.
"Way back about 40 years ago In 1981, PLAAF Commander Tingfa Zhang gave formal proposal of a third-generation fighter with modern technologies instead of MiG-15 / 19 / 21 tech. This proposal went ahead but with one major departure from the previous methodologies -The approved supplier will now be responsible in working directly with the customer demands ; which basically allowed the PLAAF to communicate its precise requirements and ensure they were met; Whereas in previous development projects - The suppliers were responsible to their " Management agency", which sometimes produce products that 100% failed to meet end user requirements."
When the J-10 fighter was being developed, it was built to serve as an air-superiority fighter to counter to Soviet fighter jets. However, the collapse of the Soviet Union altered China’s threat assessments and subsequently, the J-10 evolved.
The development & deployment of Mach 2.2 Delta Dasher " Vigorous Dragon J-10A " as Air Superiority Fighter was as per requirements of PLAAF - They had other options available for A2G Duties.
A ‘ Tail-less design with canard fore-planes with a swept - back vertical tail & the Pure Delta Wing’"gives the J-10 Stability even at low speed for ground attack. Delta winged platforms are known for carrying BIG payloads [our own Old Delta Mirage for one] -
Hence it was more of the Customer PLAAF requirement forcing it to A2A , rather taking anything away from the capability available in the airframe .
J-10C is an altogether different Fighter jet to its 'A model ', with Engineering modifications, Space considerations and provisions kept available to incorporate all the evolution & advancements of future 20 - 40 years - Be it The Multi role capabilities.
"....J-10B, features a host of improvements ; The 1035 prototype of the J-10B first flew in December 2008 and entered service in 2014. In late 2017, J-10B prototype serial 1034 made its first flight with a TVC nozzle equipped variant of the domestic WS-10 engine. Slightly less than one year later, on day one of Zhuhai 2018, serial 1034 was among the first aircraft performances of the morning.
The most immediately apparent modification is the addition of a diverter-less supersonic inlet, which should help to reduce the aircraft’s radar cross section while reducing weight and complexity—but at the price of some degraded high speed performance. The J-10B incorporates an infrared search and track (IRST) with an added laser rangefinder plus an indigenous passive electronically scanned array (PESA) fire-control radar that is allegedly capable of engaging 4 targets simultaneously. It also incorporates a much more capable electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) suite."
—Zhang Jigao Deputy Cjief Designer for J - 10 Jets.
During the transformation from A version to C version , PLAAF had its other options for A2A maturing such as Chinese upgraded Flanker Variants or Premium Killer J-20 - Hence the Multi role capabilities of J-10C also became better and effective. The current KLJ-10A Type 14-XX AESA Radar with >1200 T-R Modules has SAR Capabilities - GDJ-5 twin munition adapter makes a big difference.
=================================
Regarding the induction in PAF - A future iteration of F-16 or a maximum upgrade to Viper Standards [with SLEP] incorporating Latest Radars, Pods, AIM-120 C7 / AIM-9X etc as much as possible would have been the most logical solution . Reasons being
-Logistical, Storage, Training, Spares, Munitions costs already incurred up to a major extent
-Known Capabilities and Ready deployment Playbook in Package formation
-Utilization of Coalition Support Fund
-Western Capabilities/ Hardware and opportunities to jointly train with European Operators learning practicing those skills.
-Diversified Portfolio of Sources in Procurement
But then their were huge Road Blocks , such as :
-End User Agreements restricting the deployment
-Non Availability of certain capabilities or being capped such as S.E.A.D or HARM / IRST / SOW / Anti Ship to name a few.
-All future upgrades & weapons integration limited / restricted due to requirement of manufacturer Source codes
-Sanctions & Threats to block spares
-Geo Political situation
================================
"....Pakistan reportedly first showed interest in the J-10 in 2006, and the first iterations of the fighters date back to 1988 when China’s Chengdu Aircraft Corporation built the first model. While Pakistan’s Full Spectrum Deterrence posture has often been seen in light of its nuclear component—meant to deter an Indian conventional attack—Pakistan has also worked to respond to any major Indian military acquisition and deny air-superiority. With this in purview, Pakistan’s acquisition of the J-10 fighter conforms to the same logic of Pakistan’s denial of comprehensive advantage to India...."
PAF was "Actively" looking at the J-10 development program for atleast > 15 years ; Unofficial reports claim PAF providing 'key insights and feedback' on basis of its long term experience of using F-16s and hence the deal was always on the cards.The considerably lower cost of induction / operation vs any European / Western Platform and a certain flexibility to induct SOW / SEAD / HARM / Anti ship etc of Choice with permission of China due to strategic partnership was always a key benefit.
For the last decade , there are NO major announcements or 'formal news channels' from Pakistan Military about its inductions and it takes many years or leaks or educated guess work to pinpoint the options being marked for future [VT-4, HQ-9 etc being examples]. J-10 was on the cards...
There are lots of present & future operational benefits.
- The opportunity to scale numbers quickly from China
- No Strings attached
- Availability to access the future Munitions / Electronics upgrade available from China
- Leverage the future Chinese systems [ since PAF would be using its Primer current Multi role] .
==================================
Strategic factors also contribute -- J-10 fighter deal also strengthens the ever-growing strategic partnership between Pakistan and China, its largest defense partner. According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) from 2016 to 2020, 38% of China’s total arms exports went to Pakistan, and military aviation was an important part of it.
#Inter-operatability concept is a key factor when we consider HQ-9, VT-4,Naval Assets etc and J-10C in that respect.
================================
The availability of Efficient mature Chinese power plant with improved MTBF / MTTR compared to when it was in its initial stages and matured second generation of Chinese AESA were the defining factors.
Given the sweeping impact of today’s technology, ‘Air power’ has unquestionably taken a position of dominance in changing the very nature of warfare.
Hence, any nation that aspires to enhance its influence beyond its frontiers; Ought to have an advanced, capable, strong and a viable Air Force.Air Superiority or air dominance will remain the main mission of air power, although UAVs, UCAVs, Stand - off Weapons, Satellites, and Cruise Missiles may be increasingly employed to reinforce the manned aircraft and the missiles.
So that's How PAF would likely foresee J-10CP -Initially in Package as Air Superiority fighter jet [Offensive Option] with F-16 Block 52s [ Defensive Offense ] and JF-17 Thunder Block III equipped with SOW / PL-15s as and when situation demands. JF-17 Thunders are serving PAF by providing adequate Multi Role capabilities for the time being.
The long range stick capability would put the opposing fighters in defensive position and certainly things have changed for the good since the Kargil scenario.
J-10C fared well in limited exercises it was put into operation.
http://defensepoliticsasia.com/exer...j11-34-42-thai-gripen-full-translated-report/
Pakistan's eastern neighbors would thrash the induction tagging it UnProven - going to an extent of calling it Chinese trash and calling Rafale as God's creation. This is the same rhetoric heard about "Raptor of the east", till the myth was busted in Swift Retort.The current performance of Russian Flankers in Ukraine war has exposed whatever was left in that bubble.
The Super Thunder III - J-10CP Combo in packaged formation with Airborne / Ground EW & AEW&C Assets, Training and effective deployment strategies is a Capability which has created new set of headaches.
PAF has a history of working out the max application of a Platform to its advantage - meaning if there is some modification work required to Tune wire or panel or attachment or fixture etc to hang the A2G munitions in more effective manner , so be it -- that could be achieved with the assistance of Chinese engineers.
The numbers quoted initially such as 25 or 36 should NOT be counted as final quantity ; The units would certainly grow considering PAF doesn't go for less than 80 -90 platforms when it inducts a new platform and invests on it.
The Pakistani nation could see "New Delta J-10C/P " transforms as a FORCE Multiplier for PAF when numbers increase until Something 'new comes in'.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Last edited:
MastanKhan
PDF VETERAN
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2005
- Messages
- 21,269
- Reaction score
- 166
- Country
- Location
Hi,
Thank you for your post.
Actually there was a much greater input in the J10 project than the Z10ME---and they never disclosed what it was due to obvious reason.
And you may say that where the J10C is today---a lots of it is due to some helpful assets sharing their knowledge.
Now why the "air superiority" role aircraft---. See---the Paf has reached a certain plateau with the induction of the JF17 and its multirole strike capabilities.
Once that threshold had been crossed---the next step was obviously the air superiority---a dedicated fighter pilot group and aircraft whose primary role was air superiority.
Last edited:
Hassan78610
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2020
- Messages
- 66
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
Wish to see them grow in numbers & armed to the teeth insha Allah.
araz
PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2006
- Messages
- 9,291
- Reaction score
- 81
Kaka
These are millions of dollars worth machines. Where do you propose we get the money from when we cannot pay off earlier debts and are asking them to reschedule them. PAF will assess the needs and decide once it has developed a doctrine for them decide the numbers it wants.
A
Similar threads
