PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[araz]

But regardless who manufactures certain parts or even engines for LM, it remains still a US system and as such if the US ban it from exoirt to Pakistan from the US, why should they allow an export via Turkey, Poland or whomever?

While I agree with the gist of your post, can I say that officially there is no ban on sales to PAF, provided it foots the bill. However, if we are requiring Bl72s we will have to go through Congress and I think technically there are risks of it not getting approved or sanctioned half way through. I think that prospect and the fact that PAF feels it wants to release its held back CSF by acquiring US hardware with it (which has no become a pipe dream unless Pakistan gets embroiled in another US misadventure) is what is holding things back. I think this is what the official picture is reading international news.
My worthless contribution for the day.
A

 

[araz]

Some people just dont have the capability to see beyond 3 feet. Who would want to use mirages in 2022? Who would want to drive a suzuki fx when there are new models available?? Yes the ones that dont have money. I guess this simple fact is too complex for many to understand.

Allow me to give you a narrative which looks at another point of view while supporting your view. I have(Supposedly) 2 cars. a small two seater citigo by VW and a Bentley. The citigo gets from A to B in quick time as I can weave through traffic whereas the Bentley is a drag to drive in rush hour(Plus the 2 miles a gallon consumption does not help either). My work place requires me to go into the city in dense traffic but due to some nifty weaving I get to work in 20 minutes. The same ride in the Bentley takes me 35 minutes. I go out regularly on excursions with my family and the Bentley is a dream to travel in on those occasions, The fuel consumption almost doubles due to continuous constant speed driving . How would you suggest I use my cars for (A) city and work use and (B) for excursions on the highways.
The M3/5s are being used for a couple of reasons which appear to be very cogent. They have a niche role as air to ground/night time attack, in which they are good due to their low level handling, high speed, Cheap cost, ample spares /local limited manufacturing of spares. There is relatively higher attrition however the cost factor makes them a good platform to use for this purpose. With the advent of Drones some of these functions may be taken over but while PAF/PA builds up capacity, devises strategy change and revalidates it, the M3/5s will be there in that role. The interesting thing is how PAF/PAA strategy will change with increasing number of drones plus increasing capabilities on them.
A

 

[The Eagle]

But that's an aircraft.

Can't be:
Drones
Jets
Helicopters
AD systems

As he said no aircrafts or AD systems.

What else has been rumoured to be a purchase?

Boomer

 

[araz]

My thought is that if we are indeed getting russian engines on J10C, then they may be older used J10C and that will also explain how we can foot the bill. I don't think for our need the higher thrust is the only deciding factor from performance perspective.

China will not spare its own inventory for anyone. It is desperately short of 4th generation fighters and facing India on one side , Taiwan on the other side plus South China Sea is also not settled spot. So they might manufacture some for PAF on short notice but will not loosen their current inventory.

 

[TheSolution]

Boomer

How is that linked to my message

 

[The Eagle]

Pakistan armed forces and our men are certainly our pride and honor! We love our boys and we stand with them, ready to mix our blood with theirs for our country any day. But having said that, they are no supermen or martians aliens. They are very much Pakistani humans. Patriotism and optimism are double edged swords. We hear glorifying statements all too frequently about our forces and im not a big fan tbh.

With all due respect offcourse. Why we still have mirage 3s & 5s if we are thinking 30yrs ahead? Why by 2000s they were all not retired and replaced already? 30 yrs? 2022 is our first National Defence Policy announced only 74 years after freedom!

You see, I have a growing bitterness towards this attitude. Super sacred-ism that we sometimes associate to our armed forces. Nothing good on ground comes out of it. PA, PAF, PN are made of Pakistanis. Pakistanis are very casual, slow and laid back people, often somewhat ridiculous in their ideas and beliefs. The DNA of king dynasties and split N divide of colonialism perhaps still runs in our blood. We do have "some" hand full of bright people no doubt. But a lot of politics, negativity and bullshit also goes on within armed forces just like any other institute of our country. Our armed forces are only slightly better than national average in professionalism and productivity.

So no one should really believe that there is any super human force at their back! The sooner we separate reality from obsession the better it is. Praise where due but i'm sure theres no astonishment thats gona befall out of a F7 or Mirage 3 mid air. No matter how much patritoism, love and elbow grease you throw at a suzuki FX, its not becoming any 2022 vitz because of it.

P.S. I do have several people of my family in armed forces. They are all trying to serve country honestly and are bright as well. Much respect & love for all serving our country but I dont like rosey picture reports.

Nobody claim them to be super human except that you keep repeating in a single post.

However, all the shortcomings hit you when you have very little pockets and bigger enemy. You can't just blame everything on minds since there is economic problem. In easy words, an empty mind becomes the den for devil to play wrong ideas. Since you don't have that luxury to buy, there comes your haters with ideas like short sighted, small minded, narrow thinking, lazy, compromised, reactive and whatever definition hits you. Just look at our neighbor with every penny at disposal for their Armed Forces having their hands full of everything from the market but still coming short of tactics or capability or skills to come at par PAF if not above. If we had such a luxury to spend $$ here & there; I would then call most of them traitors & lazy. Since economics play a major role; it is just not that easy to blame hierarchy with everything as such. These negatives happens when you don't have such ergonomics due to lack of strong economy. But is that a compromise of national security? I don't think it is of that level. No... not all given the security proof and ops being carried.

Mirages to be retired in 2000 or not; we have to look at our options, resources, reach & pockets. It is not black & white to keep wishing for shiny gadgets while turning a blind eye to the short comings back at home. Yes there's no super human but there are limitations & circumstances to deal in such an environment and still turn out be victor. Nobody is sharing rosy pictures to delude or mislead anyone. If you have surely people in the Armed Forces; you must know that despite of all of short comings, how boys did well and still doing so. That's the point to ponder. If you want to see the rosy picture, do you own a private jet or heli at all to travel fast, pray that we have a strong economy & $ at disposal as we wish and then let see if the men in uniform are still making blunders as we say.

 

[Trailer23]

Sir if those F-16 block 70 would come, then again it's a new GE engine not the other P&W engines. Because new F-16 are only coming with GE engines. Thanks

I'm sorry, but when did this development take place ?

Lockheed Martin hasn't made any announcement that they are parting ways with P&W for supplying engines.

I think its pretty obvious since they are still marketing it as Block 70/72 on their Official Website.
F-16 Block 70/72

Furthermore, the Royal Moroccan Air Force have already placed orders for 25 Block 72's...

Defense Security Cooperation Agency

@Hodor @Windjammer @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @GriffinsRule @ziaulislam

 

[Maler]

@tphuang and @Deino.
I think if one looks at this conundrum it is very confusing. The arguments both for and against AL31FN are very cogent. The problem remains the lack of information about the Chinese engines. Basic information like thrust, MTBO, ability to produce in numbers is lacking. On the other hand the timing of the purchase points to PAF waiting for the WS10 to mature.
No one can deny that Chinese are very new in engine manufacturing. We know from looking at development of engines that newer engines often face reliability/technical issues which need ironing out.
Looking at it from PAF'S perspective they have so far resisted a transfer over to WS13 in spite of Chinese insistence. They have not even agreed to get the RD93MA for the same reason(possibly). So my question remains why is it not plausible for PAF's J10 to have AL31 FN? It may be that with the advent of WS10 the Russians no longer have any interest in keeping AL31FN away from PAF since IAF has not bought any planes. PAF now have options and the simple adage of "if you cannot beat them join them" applies here.
I understand that the fact the Chinese have not bought any AL31s for 3 years means the news lacks credibility. Iam just saying we will need to wait and see how/when the information is released as arguments on both sides are very strong and no side can provide satisfactory answers as to why they feel the other possibility does not exist.
Regards
A

Most probably AL-31FN will be coming with J-10CE and that might be the reason India canceled 21 refurbished Mig-29 deal!!! Just an assumption!!!!!

For 2023-24, keep in mind J 20

Most probably JH-7!!!

 

[Trailer23]

Most probably AL-31FN will be coming with J-10CE

Nope.

We're going with the Chinese this time around.

 

[Maler]

Nope.

We're going with the Chinese this time around.

Least likely, Chinese engine tech is not fully matured yet! I don't think PAF can afford experimentation!

 

[Trailer23]

Least likely, Chinese engine tech is not fully matured yet! I don't think PAF can afford experimentation!

I'll be sure to quote you once you're proven wrong in a couple of months.

 

[War Historian]

They could come with P&W engines, just not from the U.S.

Yes Sir, but that would be older F-16 upgraded as block 72 with Pratt & Whitney engines. Because the new ones are only Using General Electric engines.

 

[Trailer23]

Yes Sir, but that would be older F-16 upgraded as block 72 with Pratt & Whitney engines. Because the new ones are only Using General Electric engines.

Again, where did you get this information from?

 

[araz]

Most probably AL-31FN will be coming with J-10CE and that might be the reason India canceled 21 refurbished Mig-29 deal!!! Just an assumption!!!!!


Most probably JH-7!!!

Do you have to push India into the fray without any rhyme or reason? Can you please let your Indo centric ego have a rest.
JH7. OK> Now I know what I am dealing with. Bhai a plane that was rejected in the 90s as being underpowered and having the flying pattern of a brick will be chosen in 2022 when PLAAF has stopped production for the last 3-4 years at least???

 

[lcloo]

Least likely, Chinese engine tech is not fully matured yet! I don't think PAF can afford experimentation!

No, WS-10 engine is already a matured engine. All J11B from batch 2 onwards are fitted with WS-10 engines, also batch 1 J11B which was originally fitted with Russian engines are now being re-engined with Chinese WS-10 engines.

Aircraft using WS-10 engines are J10C, J11B, J16, J16D and J20II. At least 800 engines have been delivered.