PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[RIP Pak LAW]

Besides, imo flankers don’t fit in the best with PAFs doctrine (though that can always be changed).

They do over Arabian sea. We do need double engine planes to keep P8i as far out as possible.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Can’t wait to see this baby in PAF color.
Feel glad to be home

Are you wanglokan(?)

 

[帅的一匹]

Are you wanglokan(?)

Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.

Good to have you back here

 

[PakAlp]

Less advanced in the C bands.

One last scenario - against the PAF F-16C-52s

F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Rafale with Meteor: Lost 4 out of 4.
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 out of 4.
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Won 3 out of 4.
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4.
F-16C Block 52 with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4.

What about if it was Jf17 Block 3 instead of F16 Block 52. How will it perform against the Rafale and the rest, we all were confident that Jf17 block 3 with f16 block 52s could handle Rafale and so there is no need for J10C.

Also how would you rate the unproven chinese technology against the French Rafale tech, with the F16s we knew we had the world best technology.

 

[Imran Khan]

Yes, but China has been "all weather ally" for decades. I don't see this changing anytime soon. Chinese technology is catching up to western levels plus they have the most industrial capacity in the world. USA wont sell advanced fighter jets to Pakistan, neither will France or Sweden. Russia may but they have a historic arms partnership with India plus their AESA tech is behind China's.

Best for Pakistan to relay on combo of local arms production supplemented by direct purchases from China. Turkey or GCC may be an option in the future but not currently.


I always thought Chinese flankers are the best option for PN due their longer range.

 

[Tom_Cruise]

View attachment 804394 baber cruise missile attached

The 2-tonne camo looks spectacular.

Anyone have more of this/similar artwork?

 

[PurpleButcher]

What about if it was Jf17 Block 3 instead of F16 Block 52. How will it perform against the Rafale and the rest, we all were confident that Jf17 block 3 with f16 block 52s could handle Rafale and so there is no need for J10C.

Also how would you rate the unproven chinese technology against the French Rafale tech, with the F16s we knew we had the world best technology.

Where have the rafales proven their air to air capability in a contested environment consisting of decent fighters and AEW and ECM aircrafts?

Everything coming out of China is bad and every western thing though unproven is super duper! Please grow up!

 

[The Terminator]

View attachment 805206

No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap

If that dude is living in Pakistan and using phone then he most probably be writing this comment from a well known Chinese branded phone that's assembled in Pakistan would be hypocrisy at it's best

Bashing China from a Chinese designed mobile phone!

The setting of the test is garbage. RBE2-AA radar is a small size radar that only have 838 T/R module,it can't has a 140NM（260KMdetection range and compare to it the radar on J-10C is a mediun size radar that have 1200+ T/R module and have a better performance than KJL-7A/LKF601 (200KM+).If RBE2-AA(838TRm) have a much better performence than APG-81(1200TRm)，then i can say the radar tech of the us are trash.

Excuse me! This post is wrongly quoted IMHO. I never trash talked any tech here.

 

[帅的一匹]

Where have the rafales proven their air to air capability in a contested environment consisting of decent fighters and AEW and ECM aircrafts?

Everything coming out of China is bad and every western thing though unproven is super duper! Please grow up!

PAF won’t spend a penny on anything unproven. It takes PAF 20 years to make final decision to induct J10 , especially it’s ability was fully displayed in the shaheen joint excercise.

 

[The Terminator]

@CriticalThought
What you posted in the other thread kept me thinking of what if I am wrong based on whatever limited information + knowledge I have.

So lets put it through the simulation: @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD in case you are interested

A flight of 4 J-10Cs with PL-15s and a flight of 4 Rafale F3Rs with Meteors.
In total the J-10Cs carry 16 PL-15s and 8 PL-10s along with KG-300 ECM pods while the Rafale's 16 Meteors and 8 MICA EMs along with 8 MICA IRs as well(SPECTRA BUILT IN)
Max Range of PL-15 is simulated at 92nm while the Meteor is at 75nm.

Both located at 36000ft, facing each other and at 200nm out - same simulated skill level.
They both have access to their respective DLs and the side overall is capable of exploiting other sensors but no AEW in place.
This is a straight charge in with no collective offset tactics or approaches - pretty much medieval knights riding to meet each other with sensor/weapons performance what we are looking to see.

Now I cannot change what the programmers of this simulation consider their values for sensor and weapons parameters and I do feel they have assigned the radar range to the J-10C lower than what it is(closer to the JF-17 Block 3) but that is offset to an extent by the range of the PL-15.
Additionally, they also limited the J-10C to only being able to guide 1 PL-15 at a time when that is not the case in reality. It does however somewhat simulate the block-3 to an extent as well so the initial results can be taken analogous to that engagement too barring the block-3s slightly smaller RCS.
To make this engagement fair I limit the Rafale's to launch 1 weapon at each target as well.

Finally, I AM HANDS OFF - no interference.

Quick snapshot shows the detection/engagement range of the J-10(White circle at 75nm) and the weapons range in red.

View attachment 805184

The Rafale has a detection range of 140nm - so nearly twice that of the J-10C shown but then its stick is shorter.

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Both flights proceed to engage keeping the same altitude and fairly same kinematics as well with the J-10C approaching the max weapons range

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At exactly 74nm the J-10Cs launch their PL-15s at the Rafales who are in weapons range for the Meteor but dont launch yet.

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Finally at 70NMs the Meteors are also launch and the Rafale's start to notch - the J-10Cs are still not notching!
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The Meteors don't loft as much as the PL-15s but the Meteors are FASTER due to their Ramjet propulsion and get to their target FASTER!
They go active and the J-10s are finally defending.

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All 4 J-10Cs are gone while the PL-15s are still in the air!
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WHEN the PL-15s do arrive they hit 2 Rafale's while the others are able to dodge and get away - thus ended attempt 1 at the simulation.
Since it works as if a dice is rolled in terms of calculating everything from "pilot" responses to weapon impacts I ran it 3 more times.

#2 - J-10Cs all lost, 1 Rafale remains

#3 - J-10Cs 1 survives the first volley while 2 Rafale's survive. ONCE this J-10C survives and both flow Hot again, it launches at another Rafale to bring it down and survives a Meteor. It launches again at the second Rafale and brings it down as well.

#4. No J-10Cs survive and 1 Rafale Survives.

However, as I mentioned the issue lies with the simulated radar range for the J-10C and this result may reflect more the Block-3 rather than the J-10CPs.
so perhaps suited to the other thread but the JF-17 Block-3 isnt some antidote for the Rafale and probably more akin to a numbers equalizer to outstick the IAF.

But, I wasnt done so I manipulated the database and increased the range of the J-10Cs radar to 100nm and allowing them (and the Rafale's) to guide 2 missiles at a time.
Doing that changed the whole game entirely -

Now the J-10Cs werent only launching right at the edge of the PL-15s range but also able to notch more comfortably. The PL-15s would arrive and since they were 2 per target bring down all Rafale's
while the meteors where still 35nm away from the J-10Cs!
Even with their high speed at the weapon endgame the Meteors would at best bring down 2 J-10s in repeat after repeat of this scenario.

View attachment 805200


So - having done so I decided to put up all other assets of the PAF against the Rafale.

JF-17 Block-2 - 2 out of 4 times is unable to engage even and brought down by the Rafale - the other two tries brings down 1-2 Rafales

F-16AM with AIDEWS - Only in 1 engagement do they actually manage to evade the meteor and bring down 3 Rafales but still lose 3-4. Other cases it is 2-4 or 0-4 as well.

So, clearly the other assets of the PAF barring the JF-17 Block-3 and J-10C arent going to have it easy against the Rafale - sure, the chance of this simple straight in engagement are also nearly nil but it goes to simulate what a game changer the Rafale is for the IAF.

Why I state that is because I ran the simulation for other scenarios as well:

J-10C(100nm Radar) with /PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 4 times and in all it was 0-4 losses
J-10C with /PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 Win 4 out of 4 times , MKI managed to bring down 1 J10C in 2 rounds.
J-10C with /PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 4 out of 4 times , UPG managed to bring down 1 J10C in 1 round.
J-10C vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Win 4 out of 4 times - No chance for Tejas they all went down for no loss to J-10C

JF-17 Block-3(simulated by J-10C with 75nm Radar) W/PL-15 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: 3 out of 4 times could not fire a single MICA and all went down
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - Win 3 out of 4 times-, MKI Won only 1 round after losing 2 of theirs.
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 2 win, 1 draw(shoot each other down) and 1 lost.
JF-17 Block-3 W/PL-15 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - 4 times they all went down for no loss to Block-3

JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Evenly matched on rounds- When they win it is 4-3, when they lose it is 2-4.
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 1-2 JF-17 remaining
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - 4 times it is an EVEN result with either 1 Mig-29 or JF-17 surviving - very surprising considering the MKI is a superior aircraft in paper specs.
JF-17 Block-2 W/PL-12 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - EVEN result with 2 of either aircraft remaining after winning.

F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mirage-2000H-5 with MICA: Won 3 out of 4.
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Su-30MKI Mk2 with RVV-AE and R-27 - 4 rounds EVEN 2-2 with 3-4 F-16 remaining .
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Mig-29UPG armed with RVV-AE - Win 3 out of 4 with 2-3 F-16s remaining in all wins.
F-16AM with AIM-120C-5 vs Tejas Mk1 armed with Derby - Won all 4 times - but nearly lost in one round with 1 F-16 remaining.

So, just my thoughts are that at this point the PAF does have the superior stick against most of IAF's fleet except the Rafale.
Stating again that this is a VERY SIMPLE scenario.

Unfortunately we do not have the Astra to simulate so cannot see what that will do to change the engagements.

What impact it would have if we add long range SAMs to the both sides as well. India got longer stick in that field which would severely hinder our AEW&C and other airborne support assets.

 

[Riz]

View attachment 805206

No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap

He doesn’t know what PAF did with Isreali made spyder SAM Radars , french mirages radars on 27 feb ??

 

[python-000]

Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.

Welcome back brother...☺

 

[SD 10]

View attachment 805206

No, this comment is not written by a Indian. The guy commenting this is Pakistani. Seriously what is wrong with people like him? Sure everything Chinese is crap

brain dead fanboys.

 

[Deino]

Yes brother, haven’t been here for a long time.

Welcome back, we truly missed you ! And I hope everything's fine.