PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Readerdefence]

China would love to see its most superior fighter jet flying by the most professional air-force in farnborough air show

Hi Riz in farnborough my understanding is you display your own product so it can attract some foreign customer for future purchases
I’m sure Chinese must have participated with their own product as Pakistan did with their jf17s beside that J10c being something new for outside China PAF might not want to display its features
your comments will be appreciated
thank you

 

[Engima Chaudhry]

Lol F-16 is like an open book to the world. Giving away J-10C's secrets that cheap would have hurt Pakistan more than anyone else. It's role in PLAAF is to just beef up the numbers of 4,4++ gen fighters. Their main Frontline fighters are J-20 followed by a plethora of Chinese flanker variants.

What Pakistan would loose through that hypothetical mental ma$tu®b@tion !

It's most reliable enigmatic Frontline fighter jet, the silver bullet (which no one knows about in depth), tip of the spear. And what we would get in return? F-16 practically the oldest vvho®e of the 4th gen fighters with relatively new bells and whistles from a country we can't attribute as a dependable, trusted friend. US would gladly donate the platforms in our use to our adversary to play with if the need arises.

Don't forget how you got upgrades and BVR capability for the falcons, because you were going to induct PL-12/SD-10s anyways that too on a local JV platform. Simultaneous induction of JF-17 Block 3 and J-10CP could further pave the way for our F-16s to get to the V standard. Be focused, realistic and honest to your cause.

That was useless proposition of you indeed


Exactly. What a sh!+load of mental.....

I agree . Any leakage of j10c potential would harm our interests. Like tha episode of a Christian pilot of Iraq defecting to Israel with mig 21 in 60s. It led to complete annihilation of Egyptian air force.
Falcons, anyway, come with a lot of handicaps and strings .

 

[Engima Chaudhry]

Now PAF can do combat excercise by flying J10cp against F16?

Inside Pakistan, of course. Paf has own f16s . Outside the country or with foreign air forces , i doubt that. No air force shares its secrets, I suppose.

I think there must be a security protocol signed or mutual understanding regarding J10cp. I don’t even think USA will allow PAF F16 fighters doing excercise with J10cp although they are both your inventory now.

If I remember correctly, us had a 10 year restriction on f16 block 52 participation. That period is over. So I don't think there should be a problem in j10 and f16 of paf going toe to toe.

 

[That Guy]

Hi Bilal
when PAF pitched J10c against F16 in their own exercises
is it possible for USA to get radar signatures of J10c or other features which China & pakiStan do not want to reveal openly
if it’s possible for you to comment on my post
thank you

No.

 

[The Terminator]

I think you misunderstood RTAF intention. Thailand knows they have no chance to get F-35. The US congress will never approved given Thai connection to PLA. Once US congress reject. It will paved way for RTAF to go for other arms. Btw, PLAAF dont export J-10C unrestricted. Only few selected partner will be approved for J-10C export. The only plane China keen to export widely is JF-17 Blk III.

During the Singapore Airshow recently, J-10C export are no where to be seen at AVIC booth. AVIC is only actively promoting JF-17 export.

Which means more $$$$$ for Pakistan on Thunder's sales. Nice!

 

[Engima Chaudhry]

May be J-10CP induction could prove to be a gateway of strong persuasions for the F-16V Block70 upgrades to come here in Pakistan. You know what I mean!







*As JF-17 Thunder proved to be enabler of more modern F-16s to follow and join PAF. US every now and then needs that kind of persuasions.

That would be an ideal situation.
But , if I remeber correctly, the iff of all f16 are biased and are programmed to not lock on to us and Israeli air force. ( the Turkish f 16s could not lock on to Israeli f16s, and the turks then demanded their own iff software).
J10cp can and will lock on to usaf fighters.
In my view that's a big plus.

Which means more $$$$$ for Pakistan on Thunder's sales. Nice!

It is the same way f5 was meant to be exported to allies , and f16 was not supposed to be given to any non nato country. Jf 17 is meant for export and j10cp restricted to only close allies.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

People don't understand / comprehend the capabilities of the US. The US has assets that analyze opponents equipment---and there is hardly ever an assessment that misses the mark.

The J 10 C is an extremely capable aircraft---but it is not the aircraft alone---it is the total air combat package that is fighting a war.

Secondly---it is both with the understanding and nod from the chinese that the aircrafts---the JF17's and J10's would be competing against the other air forces---because if they don't compete---how would we know the shortcomings.

bless you man.
I was just going to write that last bit.
how would PAF verify J10 capability and its integration in its doctrine without putting it against airforce other than China?

 

[araz]

May be J-10CP induction could prove to be a gateway of strong persuasions for the F-16V Block70 upgrades to come here in Pakistan. You know what I mean!







*As JF-17 Thunder proved to be enabler of more modern F-16s to follow and join PAF. US every now and then needs that kind of persuasions.

Lately PAF has tried to establish a 2 tier system with Western platforms and Chinese ones so we dont get hamstrung in case hostilities break out. This maybe a part of the same plan. Secondly it seems we need to replace platcorms which have used up their shelflives so we bought a newer platcorm to replace them. Lastly newer capabilities have been acquired along with the newer platform. All in all PAF has come out stronger with this induction.
On the subject of training with F16s within PAF, I do not know hpw/this can be avpided. Intersquadron combat exercises get organized regularly and F16s have gone up against JFT. They will go up against J10s as well.

F16 if offered ( big if) will still be bought if funds allow due to their utility within the PAF setup.
A

 

[FuturePAF]

Weapons of the J-10

 

[siegecrossbow]

How?

Thailand cuts defence budget again

Thailand plans to cut its defence budget for 2022 in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. It will be the third reduction in military expenditure in consecutive years if...

www.janes.com

Maybe F-35 was just an excuse? We’ll see.

 

[Xone]

All the tactical advantage that the Paf had is gone---.

listening to this does not bring any difference. No one knows beforehand that PAF has such an advantage over IAF going to the real theatre. At least knowing the lack of an edge over rivals will ask for more endeavors to do better in training and acquisitions of the latest tech weapons.
to perform better is not similar to knowing what is better. the entire world knows what is the stealth fighter but only a few have them.
PAF got J-10C to restore the lost advantage once again. Is not it so?
having western and Chinese systems at the same time brings forth versatility to the PAF.

 

[The Terminator]

J-10C isn't really defined as frontline fighter for PLAAF. Frontline fighter being the top fighters and force multiplier types which would certainly be J-20 and J-16 as frontline. J-10C are support fighters and number fillers. With air combat for air superiority, it is frontline fighters performing major mission of denying airspace and contesting it while taking out strategic assets and pushing ahead to take out launching platforms.

Rest assured that J-16 and J-20 technologies are ahead of J-10C in terms of electronics, sensors, and communication equipment that are fitted simply because these fighters hold those harder and more important mission profiles.

BUT in this case PLAAF uses almost the same (but not the same) J-10C with PAF now. And despite not being frontline, it is important enough for opsec to ban any types of exercises with any western nation unless China has some say in how the platform is used in those exercises. China exercising with Thailand with J-10B/C and Gripen C is more to benefit of China's side since it gets to evaluate Gipren C's performance (although in the hands of Thai airforce) and Thai airforce are far closer politically to China than to the US and won't be telling them much if anything about J-10's performance while China gets first hand direct experience flying with the Gripens. There are a lot of public information about Gripens exercising against F-16, F-22, F-15, Eurofighter Typhoon etc.



It depends how it is used. Russian airforce fighters have for decades become lagged in electronic warfare domain - EA, ECM, ECCM and so on. Even in sensors their first generation AESA for Mig-35 was not used. Their second generation is on Himalaya system for Su-57 and only in service in recent years but Su-57 produced in barely single digit numbers rate per year perhaps due to cost compared to Su-35 and overall capability improvement over Su-35 not being worth those extra price? No idea why they don't produce Su-57 in huge numbers. Russian reports indicate they would have been producing Su-57 in double digit numbers per year and before that suggested it is unnecessary. It could be production engineering side being more difficult and extremely costly. Manufacturing is in many ways the harder challenge compared to design believe it or not.



J-11A beat Gripen C in dogfighting by HUGE margins it was like 15 to 1 or something similar to that ratio. J-11A lost to Gripen C by huge margins in first exercises back in like 2015 or something. Indian and western reporting only focused on J-11A losing in BVR but of course it would lose since J-11A is from the 1980s level of eletronic and computing tech with 1990s missiles at best (in fact actually 1970s missiles level due to only having oldest R-77 and old R-27). Anyway this was like comparing F-16A with Gripen C in BVR. Of course Gripen C will beat F-16A in BVR.

It was very surprising that J-11A beat Gripen in dogfighting though. Showing PLAAF training in WVR for J-11A may have been emphasis and I bet PLAAF uses J-11A as missile platform that is simply networked. But it's missiles are too old to be long range and I guess they also use the whole platform as a sneak platform operating in mountainous areas only where the radar is switched off, feed data through awacs to approach targets slowing through mountain valleys and then networked to take 50km range shots with their very old BVR missiles and then sneak in for WVR and then dogfight.

J-10B destroyed Gripen C in both WVR and BVR. J-10C against Gripen C was again another breeze. Gripen C is also getting old. No surprise the much more modern J-10C had easy time in BVR. I doubt Chinese side would use too much electronic abilities against Gripen C. There is not much point since Gripen C lacks phased array and any good electronic abilities because Swedes may not sell Thailand their secret electronic stuff. No one sells the top secret electronic stuff to the point I even doubt China would sell Pakistan China's frontline electronic weapons. J-20's surely would be out of the question. J-16's and J-10's are similar tech level I guess but J-16's would probably have more space and available power.



Russians placed lots of conditions on how Indians can use their Su-30 and this is Su-30 with really not that much to give away. Their electronic techs - radar and comms that were limited are not that capable or sensitive but still it is opsec issue and opsec issue even for low tier stuff is still sensitive given the entire RuAF depends on Su-30 and even lesser fighters back in those days and to some degree still does.

Yes J-10 is not PLAAF frontline fighter or top level fighter BUT Americans do still want to find out anything they can.

America has bought and stolen lots of adversary technologies from low low level boring stuff like anti tank missiles to low tech (to be honest) air defence like Pantsir (they stole many in Libya and Syria wars) and bought many more on the blackmarket... all of this stuff isn't necessarily just to copy but first to study and find how it works, what it is strong in and weak in so that they are better able to defeat or counter them. The Americans got their hands on many Kh-31 and even developed their own version (you can call it copied or whatever) just so they can practice intercepting Kh-31. They even improved the Kh-31 but for the purpose of simulating more accurately for intercepting it, they kept most of it as it is.

J-10 may not be as sensitive for China but China has around 500 + J-10s and if the adversary learns a lot of details about it, it is definitely still a thing that is sensitive. This is not just about one particular missile or smaller weapon.



I agree mostly with what you've said.

But it should be understood that as less capable as J-10 is compared to J-16 and J-20 in not just performance but also how it is used (not frontline), this is still an opsec issue and hence still going to be kept away from Americans and exercises or only used in exercises with lots of conditions of what cannot be used and switched on.

Americans would still be keen to learn whatever just to gather precious intel. Just like China would also be keen to even get some NLAWs to study. It isn't to copy unless there are good ideas to use and copy but it is to learn about their level, what their thinking is in development, their manufacturing and industrial level, their cost associated and how much they spend on making it, the capabiltiy and weaknesses and strengths of this thing, and so on.

There are many many things to tell from even a small thing because you can combine it with other knowledge. I think many members in this forum miss stuff like this. Their thinking is too 1 dimensional - getting hands on an actual piece of weapon = to copy.

All these sides would love to even find out about each other's earliest 4th generation aircraft.

It is all technical stuff to assess technical level at a certain time and their industrial level and how much importance and resources the other devoted to this and how important the other seemingly places on this particular equipment.

So much to tell from something simple. If USA can get hands on a piece of 1960s Chinese thermonuclear weapon design, the Americans would love it! Does it mean they want to copy it? Of course not there is nothing for them to copy and actually adopt instead of modern own designs. Same with vice versa. Nothing to adopt anymore and copy but lots and lots to reveal perhaps even the entire configuration although it is said the American Teller Ulam configuration design is known quite widely and used by many nations. China using Yu Min configuration design is unique in the world and intelligence have long been after this design type if nothing more than to learn about it if not adopt and copy.

All things opsec are secretive and sensitive to some degree. J-10C is used as most modern J-10 version in PLAAF. This is not some modernized J-7 which if all revealed and they know about China's 1990s and early 2000s mods for J-7 which is highly limited platform to mod on for 2000s level technology, then fine whatever.

If you have some then plz share pictures here with J-10 carrying full weapons package especially the guided ones.

And also range of different guided bombs/missiles used on J-10 in ground attack role.

 

[serenity]

If you have some then plz share pictures here with J-10 carrying full weapons package especially the guided ones.

And also range of different guided bombs/missiles used on J-10 in ground attack role.

I remember seeing YJ-91 carried on the inner pylons too not just guided bombs. Someone else may have a photo. But basically those pylons can carry ordinance and not just fuel tanks.

It is a matter of switching the pylons from those that can pump and deliver fuel to engines to weapons pylon connected to weapons suite and sensors for comms and guidance etc. Explained by leakers as "different wiring" required for ground crew.

Normally most missions will require fuel tanks. Especially peacetime photos. J-10 nearly always carrying fuel tanks in those two pylons or pylons empty.

 

[White privilege]

Cobras = Saff Shikan

So Tail Choppers and Saf Shikkan (previously Cobras) assets would relocate to Rafiqui, opening up two squadron slots at Minhas.That means both J-10 squadrons would be based at Kamra.About right??

 

[Zibago]

Maybe F-35 was just an excuse? We’ll see.

F-35 is a very expensive platform I am not sure they can field it in large enough numbers
The only western platform they can afford in their budget is the Gripen