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Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.

It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.

Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.

As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.

Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.






This is simply not true.

Pakistan is probably getting the J-10CE for 40 million US dollar and on easy repayment options from China.

A single Rafale F4 would cost around 100 million US dollars and France may not even give out a loan to the heavily indebted Pakistanis for fear of default on the repayments.
China fielded a domestic 5th gen fighter before France could. So therefore according to your logic, in terms of technological superiority, China is indeed ahead of France.
 
China fielded a domestic 5th gen fighter before France could. So therefore according to your logic, in terms of technological superiority, China is indeed ahead of France.



Nope it is not as simple as that.

1. France brought out a look-down shoot-down radar in the 1980s.
It took China till the 2000s to do the same.

2. Rafale came out with a PESA in 1999 and the Chinese had to wait around 10 years later to do the same.


All those Chinese nationalists and some Pakistani fanboys forget that France does not have to make the T/R modules for the AESA as they have access to them off the shelf. France just does the integration of both the hardware and the software.

LMAO, tested where ? against nations like Mali, Libya etc where as Pakistanis have been using Chinese tech against some one like India. Yes Rafales are good but J10C are almost upto the mark as well.



So you agree with me then dude?

My original post said that the J-10C was roughly comparable to the Rafale.

While the J-10C may be slightly behind in electronics and missiles, it definitely would be better than Rafale in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. It is quite likely that the J-10C would have the edge in BVR duels with the Rafale.
 
Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.

It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.

Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.

As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.

Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.






This is simply not true.

Pakistan is probably getting the J-10CE for 40 million US dollar and on easy repayment options from China.

A single Rafale F4 would cost around 100 million US dollars and France may not even give out a loan to the heavily indebted Pakistanis for fear of default on the repayments.
Sending Rafale against Mali or Libya without any growler is a piece of cake. And it can be carry out by any major military countries. Nothing extraordinary.

Just like using machine gun to gun down some Zulu fighter. And u can think that as feat? Lol..
 
Nope it is not as simple as that.

1. France brought out a look-down shoot-down radar in the 1980s.
It took China till the 2000s to do the same.

2. Rafale came out with a PESA in 1999 and the Chinese had to wait around 10 years later to do the same.


All those Chinese nationalists and some Pakistani fanboys forget that France does not have to make the T/R modules for the AESA as they have access to them off the shelf. France just does the integration of both the hardware and the software.
So you’re basically saying since they fielded the tech earlier, they’re ahead? That’s literally what I posted on my previous comment. I’m using your logic bro = China fielded 5th gen ahead of France, therefore, China ahead of France.

You’re also saying China makes T/R modules and France doesn’t? Doesn’t that mean China is more technologically advanced than France since they can make it?
 
While the J-10C may be slightly behind in electronics and missiles, it definitely would be better than Rafale in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. It is quite likely that the J-10C would have the edge in BVR duels with the Rafale.
This has always been the point by nearly everyone here. But you sounded like Rafale is in some another league. The progress China is making in the last 10-15 years is uncomparable. This is what, triggering the west. Ban on Huwawei and Chinese tech companies etc.

After China, its Pakistani forces which are true testimonials to Chinese militarily tech and our trust is getting more and more on Chinese systems from land forces, to air and so as the Navy.

P.S. J10Cs won't end here. There will future upgrades/blocks as well just like with Rafales so who knows China tech may surpass Europe in the next 8-10 years in some domains.
 
So you’re basically saying since they fielded the tech earlier, they’re ahead? That’s literally what I posted on my previous comment. I’m using your logic bro = China fielded 5th gen ahead of France, therefore, China ahead of France.

You’re also saying China makes T/R modules and France doesn’t? Doesn’t that mean China is more technologically advanced than France since they can make it?



Not the same analogy dude.

There is no compelling evidence that the J-20 is better in any way than 4+ fighters apart from in the area of stealth. In fact China is yet to field 5th gen engines in J-20 and the engines in Western 4+ gen fighters are of a higher technological level.

China is getting there but it will take probably 1/2 more decades before it can become a world leader in military technology.
 
Not the same analogy dude.

There is no compelling evidence that the J-20 is better in any way than 4+ fighters apart from in the area of stealth. In fact China is yet to field 5th gen engines in J-20 and the engines in Western 4+ gen fighters are of a higher technological level.

China is getting there but it will take probably 1/2 more decades before it can become a world leader in military technology.
It is literally the same analogy, stop avoiding the argument.

Now you’re going off a tangent by saying “It doesn’t count because J-20 isn’t really a 5th gen” How would you even know the specs of the aircraft that you can confidently declare this and that? Did you get your information from National Interest?
 
This has always been the point by nearly everyone here. But you sounded like Rafale is in some another league. The progress China is making in the last 10-15 years is uncomparable. This is what, triggering the west. Ban on Huwawei and Chinese tech companies etc.

After China, its Pakistani forces which are true testimonials to Chinese militarily tech and our trust is getting more and more on Chinese systems from land forces, to air and so as the Navy.

P.S. J10Cs won't end here. There will future upgrades/blocks as well just like with Rafales so who knows China tech may surpass Europe in the next 8-10 years in some domains.



Nope, I made this point in my initial post but it triggered some Chinese as they were convinced that since China makes the T/R modules then the J-10C must be ahead of Rafale in the electronics area.

8-10 years for China to catch the French and the UK in military aviation electronics is pretty realistic.

Anyway the IAF will be very worried as they stupidly chose the wrong fighter and they probably should have gone for EFT which would have had an advantage over J-10C in high-altitude aerodynamic performance.

Indians buying Rafale is the good fortune that will allow PAF to stay comparable to IAF for the next 1-2 decades at least.

It is literally the same analogy, stop avoiding the argument.

Now you’re going off a tangent by saying “It doesn’t count because J-20 isn’t really a 5th gen” How would you even know the specs of the aircraft that you can confidently declare this and that? Did you get your information from National Interest?



Dude, improve the quality of your conversation if you want me to keep engaging with you.
 
Nope, I made this point in my initial post but it triggered some Chinese as they were convinced that since China makes the T/R modules then the J-10C must be ahead of Rafale in the electronics area.

8-10 years for China to catch the French and the UK in military aviation electronics is pretty realistic.

Anyway the IAF will be very worried as they stupidly chose the wrong fighter and they probably should have gone for EFT which would have had an advantage over J-10C in high-altitude aerodynamic performance.

Indians buying Rafale is the good fortune that will allow PAF to stay comparable to IAF for the next 1-2 decades at least.





Dude, improve the quality of your conversation if you want me to keep engaging with you.
another EFT fan boy :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
another EFT fan boy :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


14 Meteors and 2 IRIS-Ts in "Beast Mode" - 180kN of thrust from the 2 EJ-2000 engines. J-10C would not want to fight something like this. Kid, think it is time for you not to get involved in adult conversation here.

1645696781900.png
 
Dude, improve the quality of your conversation if you want me to keep engaging with you.

I’m saying using declaratives that France/ UK is ahead of China or any country in X thing because they did said X thing first, and without any substantial proof of how other than that, is just bias - especially since anyone can use simplistic counter arguments against it.
 
I’m saying using declaratives that France/ UK is ahead of China or any country in X thing because they did said X thing first, and without any substantial proof of how other than that, is just bias - especially since anyone can use simplistic counter arguments against it.



Do you seriously think that Rafale is not a good aircraft?

Both India and Indonesia have brough it and nearly 300 have been sold abroad. It is not just Arabs that have brought the plane.

With Western nations you forget that they share technology and so a lot of US technology does make it's way into the hands of other Western nations.

With China they pretty much are on their own and so harder for them.
 
Indians buying Rafale is the good fortune that will allow PAF to stay comparable to IAF for the next 1-2 decades at least.
Perfect time for Chinese tech to mature, it'll match western levels at the very least, likely be ahead in some aspects.
 
Nope it is not as simple as that.

1. France brought out a look-down shoot-down radar in the 1980s.
It took China till the 2000s to do the same.

2. Rafale came out with a PESA in 1999 and the Chinese had to wait around 10 years later to do the same.


All those Chinese nationalists and some Pakistani fanboys forget that France does not have to make the T/R modules for the AESA as they have access to them off the shelf. France just does the integration of both the hardware and the software.





So you agree with me then dude?

My original post said that the J-10C was roughly comparable to the Rafale.

While the J-10C may be slightly behind in electronics and missiles, it definitely would be better than Rafale in high-altitude aerodynamic performance. It is quite likely that the J-10C would have the edge in BVR duels with the Rafale.

I think J-10's electronics are not China's best. We don't put that much good stuff into the J-10. It is meant as inexpensive fighter. Pakistan's purchased J-10CE version as J-10CP as we call it is reported to be around $50M per unit without support packages price accounted.

Rafale should be better than J-10 in both aerodynamic performance and BVR.

However China has better equipment available not just for J-16 and J-20 and other future Flanker types but also Dark Sword UCAV. These are all more high tier and expensive aircraft.

China's electronic industry is far superior to Frances.

We brought out AESA before France. We have more than 20 types of AESA in service platforms.

France's first look down shoot down radar from 1980s may be before China's while China was much lesser in development but that's like saying Japan was first to bring out fighter AESA with J/APG-1 but that doesn't mean Japan now has the best.

China was the first to bring out a cannon gun but that doesn't mean 100 years later it was the best. Same for rocket.

Anyway on J-10 vs Rafale. You have it backwards. Rafale is probably slightly better. It is high tier fighter and gets the best of France and USA can give it. J-10 is China's budget fighter. However you also got the technology backwards. China's technology level truly is far higher than France's. It is simply not that apparent yet. In military aviation we're talking about of course. France's civilian aviation with Airbus is ahead of China with C919 program for example. Far ahead.

France's experience in Libya is not war and not relevant. It doesn't prove anything. No going in combat without EW aircraft doesn't mean much when it is going in against the lowest grades of Soviet era air defence and short range too. I can tell you JF-17 block 2 with some pods could achieve the same against the same.

JF-17 went into range of Indian air defences and early warning radars where IAF scrambled many types of fighters but none pulled a single shot on a JF-17 or JF-17 escorted Mirage performing air to ground.

J-10C makes JF-17 block 2 look primitive. And J-10C is China's budget and lowest tier fighter being made now.

Chinese AESA technology has taken leap after leap without anyone speaking English (outside US intelligence) really noticing. We are beyond third generations of fighter AESA now. France has yet to develop something that can match Type 346A even which is now second tier for China and has been for over 7 years.

Anyway already with China it is beyond AESA again and now the high secrecy level of active sensor field is photonic radar which while Russia talks about a lot, China developed before Russia, before USA, before France. Most of hints given in Chinese literature and even some publicly shown does indicate that not only this stuff is ready, been ready for a while for at least ground, sea and space based. Only matter of time to get it into fighters. There is some reason the statements saying J-20S is the most incredible piece of electronic machinery assembled. It makes J-20's computing and electronics look dated.

Let's remember that China pioneered photon based communications, first to develop quantum teleportation and breaking distance record after distance record until silence as projects became black. Same with quantum computing and satellite based quantum comms. For years even PLAN officer and General recounts of new technology involving lasers (photon based) for not only communication but detecting submarines and part of hypersonic weapon guidance.

Some distills into english written media but most doesn't.

I notice the in english the program is called guanlan which is light wave.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=guanlan+satellite

This stuff was first leaked by PLA General about 5 years ago.

https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/2106281220/

https://insidegnss.com/beidou-condu...s-ahead-of-u-s-could-improve-satnav-accuracy/

https://www.9news.com.au/technology...in-world/a3cf1e8a-40d0-4934-b146-e83b87a591dd

That is more a weapon rather than sensor technology or communications technology but let's just say AESA is dated already but of course modern ones are better and photonics based active sensors for fighters may not be ready just yet.

Here's what the US would admit about China's electromagnetic (radar and EW ECM ECCM etc) levels. Still think France is up there with these two?

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/dominating-the-spectrum/

France's AESA uses American modules and only the ones USA is willing to sell to France and they are not the latest or even GaN. At least two generations behind BUT of course still extremely capable being AESA in nature alone.
 

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