PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[Blueskiez 2001]

Many people often not understand what it takes to buy and induct a new weapon system or equipment.

One can in no way compare it to buying like a car. The reason I give this example is that when reading post, I get that impression that people think that buying a fighter (or a new fighter system) is like buying a car. They forget that you cannot send the equipment to the garage if it breaks down or need service. It is more like buying both the car AND the garage for service (with the tools, manpower and so on). And on top of that you also need to make sure that you buy everything that is needed for the car to keep it functional. And on top of that you need to make sure that your driver is able not only driving the car, but also be able to handle if anything goes wrong.

So when J-10C lands in Pakistan this month / early March then there has been a training of staff from the fighter pilot to the technician and probably also the logistic guy.... So yes PAF has been cooking this dish for many years and was able to keep it relatively secret...

 

[tphuang]

btw, for those who might be concerned that J-10C's electronics isn't good enough, you might want to read this comment from USAF about China's current radar and EW technology
Dominating the Spectrum - Air Force Magazine

“That was a time of de-emphasis of electronic warfare, electronic attack, electronic defense, maneuvering in the electromagnetic spectrum,” Hinote said. “They studied us. … They studied many of you and your work, and they did their best to come up with ways of countering what you were doing in the electromagnetic spectrum.”
Today, as a result, China can send pulses from their radars “that are different every time,” Hinote said. “Yes—that’s happening right now.”
The Chinese became so good at electromagnetic spectrum warfare in the interim that today “they absolutely believe that [EMS] superiority is a prerequisite for victory,” Hinote said, suggesting that denying China use of the spectrum could be enough to deter it from fighting. “Maybe it’s enough that we deny the use of the electromagnetic spectrum to China,” he said, by filling “the airwaves with electromagnetic energy to the point where you could walk on it. … To make it so difficult to operate in the electromagnetic spectrum that it’s mutually denied space.”

I'd assume most of this is from Japan/Taiwan's experience against J-16s, but J-10C would have a similar generation of avionics.
I don't think J-10C will be at a disadvantage in its radar/EW suite against Rafale.

 

[siegecrossbow]

btw, for those who might be concerned that J-10C's electronics isn't good enough, you might want to read this comment from USAF about China's current radar and EW technology
Dominating the Spectrum - Air Force Magazine

I'd assume most of this is from Japan/Taiwan's experience against J-16s, but J-10C would have a similar generation of avionics.
I don't think J-10C will be at a disadvantage in its radar/EW suite against Rafale.

Not necessarily J-16D, which only started operating in the Taiwan Straits early this year. It could be talking about Y-8 EW too. The latter was responsible for the mass F-15 scramble of 2016.

 

[tphuang]

Not necessarily J-16D, which only started operating in the Taiwan Straits early this year. It could be talking about Y-8 EW too. The latter was responsible for the mass F-15 scramble of 2016.

I was mostly referring to regular J-16s. Since the article highlighted F-15/F-35 EW suites, I'm thinking they are mostly referring to fighter jet radar technology that PLAAF currently employs. I'm sure Y-8 special missions aircraft would have radar technology at similar levels too.

What they described in there sounds like what you would expect in a radar with really low probability of intercept. I'm assuming Japan/Taiwan in these cases are just not able to consistently pick up J-16 radar emissions.

 

[MastanKhan]

I would like to bring up something @The Eagle said, about pilot and equipment training

When we received the f-16s contract was signed in 1981

First f-16 landed in 1983 January

History of the Pakistan Air Force

The history of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) began when it was established in 1947 following the independence of Pakistan. In 1933, the British colonial government established the first Air Force station in the Indian subcontinent near Drigh Road, now called PAF Base Faisal in Karachi. In 1934...

military-history.fandom.com

So by that logic the j-10cp agreement must have been signed in 2018-19 and pilots and maintenance crews must have been training in china for the last 1-2 years.

The question I have for my friends with way more knowledge than I, were PAF pilots flying and training on j-10cps in Shaheen 2020 and 2021. 60 aircraft were sent to China for training which is about 15-18% of the PAF. And the birds that came to Pakistan were they maintained and flown by PAF , were there one or two of Pakistani j-10cp in the training for the last few years


K

Hi,

No---the deal would have been done some 8 years ago.

Picked the aircraft---the engine---the ew package---finalized the ew package and the engine---went into production---flight traing---integration of weapons system etc etc etc---then pilot training.

So---when I stated the deal was done somewhere around 2014---that is the time period that it falls under.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Hi,

No---the deal would have been done some 8 years ago.

Picked the aircraft---the engine---the ew package---finalized the ew package and the engine---went into production---flight traing---integration of weapons system etc etc etc---then pilot training.

So---when I stated the deal was done somewhere around 2014---that is the time period that it falls under.

so you are saying we penned something in 2014 awesome news. Did it it take us 8 years to induct j-10c and only 1-2 years to induct the f-16 in the 1980s?

Why such a discrepancy? Please share some more details.

K

 

[Gripen9]

so you are saying we penned something in 2014 awesome news. Did it it take us 8 years to induct j-10c and only 1-2 years to induct the f-16 in the 1980s?

Why such a discrepancy? Please share some more details.

K

We had no say in what weapon system or customization to be done to the F-16.

Only say we had was to reject lower power F-16/J-79.

We got vanilla blk 15 F-16 armed with AIm-9L, AGM-65 and Iron Bombs. So our initial batch of engineers & pilots were fully trained and operational in 8 months I believe.
PAF afterwards paid Thomson-CSF to integrate ATLIS Laser Designation pod to our F-16 s which US allowed. This made them deliver Paveway LGBs.

In J-10s case, we had a lot of say in EW and weapons integration. Majority of the requirements were still in development when PAF most probably agreed in principle. PAF also did not want to pull the trigger until India had finalized its MRCA selection. They waited until Rafales were ordered and their final config was known.

 

[Beast]

btw, for those who might be concerned that J-10C's electronics isn't good enough, you might want to read this comment from USAF about China's current radar and EW technology
Dominating the Spectrum - Air Force Magazine

I'd assume most of this is from Japan/Taiwan's experience against J-16s, but J-10C would have a similar generation of avionics.
I don't think J-10C will be at a disadvantage in its radar/EW suite against Rafale.

@UKBengali

You need this kind of info to update you. Stop living in old Europe times.

 

[siegecrossbow]

We had no say in what weapon system or customization to be done to the F-16.

Only say we had was to reject lower power F-16/J-79.

We got vanilla blk 15 F-16 armed with AIm-9L, AGM-65 and Iron Bombs. So our initial batch of engineers & pilots were fully trained and operational in 8 months I believe.
PAF afterwards paid Thomson-CSF to integrate ATLIS Laser Designation pod to our F-16 s which US allowed. This made them deliver Paveway LGBs.

In J-10s case, we had a lot of say in EW and weapons integration. Majority of the requirements were still in development when PAF most probably agreed in principle. PAF also did not want to pull the trigger until India had finalized its MRCA selection. They waited until Rafales were ordered and their final config was known.

I think MastanKhan covered it in a previous post — learning to fight with AESA radar is a difficult process. A lot of tactics used in the slotted array era are harmful and must be unlearned.

 

[Raja Porus]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496651050257993732

 

[Gripen9]

I think MastanKhan covered it in a previous post — learning to fight with AESA radar is a difficult process. A lot of tactics used in the slotted array era are harmful and must be unlearned.

That too...
But usually you gain that knowledge in service. We will develop AESA based tactics as we use it. However in this case it took a while for the platform to mature and be at a level that PAF is more than confident we can take on the Indian Rafales. 1000+ t/r AESA / PL15, 145KN of thrust.... lets go!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496651050257993732

Why?

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496651050257993732

Not sure how reliable this site is ... seems he still rates those J-10CP images as faked and otherwise this account looks more than "fishy"!

 

[serenity]

On AESA... read and learn. This is old PLAAF and Chinese technology capability from mid 2010 era.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/dominating-the-spectrum/

Above shows the level of Chinese electromagnetic capabilities. US considering EM neutrality just because China is so far ahead. This is why PLA trains and place high emphasis on triple redundancy down to unguided rockets practice.

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/usaf-three-priorities-china-china-china/

To compare Chinese AESA with French ones is doing Chinese ones such a disservice. We are not talking about a $100 Chinese module vs $10000 French one. In this field, China >>> France. India's Uttam? Aliexpress module level. The lowest priced one too not even something decent. Still these guys haven't worked Uttam out and struggling to manufacture them in numbers that can service Tejas.

There is a huge difference between Chinese levels. We have the lowest and the mid and the highest. When it comes to military, and government products, it is all highest only. India does not know how to land a 10kg piece of lander on the moon, China landed much more advanced lander half a decade before India. India still at zero because it has no ability to. It's no 99% success it is an example of being really at 0 not at >0.

Just one example of "quality" and technological capability.

Again China's own PLAAF use AESAs may not be what is sold for fear of revealing information and leaking secrets which could help others counter them slightly more. Even that edge is a risk. So what Pakistan receives is unknown but unlikely to be worse than what Pakistan can buy from Europe since orders are open. Pakistan also tests them extensively and has traditionally picked the best available one or slightly inferior but with other aspects that put it ahead overall.

 

[UKBengali]

@UKBengali

You need this kind of info to update you. Stop living in old Europe times.

Electronics does not just include the AESA radar.

It is the full EW suite and there is no way that China has matched the French yet in this respect - they are probably close but not yet up there.

Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.

As a real example of how capable the French fighter electronics are, the Rafale went into Libya without any growler escorts as it could "blind' the Libyan air-defence systems. I know they are not the most advanced in the world but neither the UK or the USA dared send in their fighters without dedicated EW escort aircraft as well.

Think there is just a bit too much nationalism and not enough realism here.

Again China's own PLAAF use AESAs may not be what is sold for fear of revealing information and leaking secrets which could help others counter them slightly more. Even that edge is a risk. So what Pakistan receives is unknown but unlikely to be worse than what Pakistan can buy from Europe since orders are open. Pakistan also tests them extensively and has traditionally picked the best available one or slightly inferior but with other aspects that put it ahead overall.

This is simply not true.

Pakistan is probably getting the J-10CE for 40 million US dollar and on easy repayment options from China.

A single Rafale F4 would cost around 100 million US dollars and France may not even give out a loan to the heavily indebted Pakistanis for fear of default on the repayments.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Also remember that the French have tested their systems in conflicts around the world and so have that extra vital real-world experience that China lacks.

LMAO, tested where ? against nations like Mali, Libya etc where as Pakistanis have been using Chinese tech against some one like India for a long time. Yes Rafales are good but J10C are almost upto the mark as well.