PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[graphican]

I think those old ZDK-03s may will be upgraded with new KLC-7 AESE radar to cooperate with those J-10C.The radar is the same one that on KJ-600 carrier-borne AWACS or a simular thing.View attachment 816193
View attachment 816187

Someone "informed" at this forum had hinted the next good news is even bigger than the J-10s. So may be the person was saying it plainly and these are next gen AWACS that can steer PL-15 to max ranges. Not just that, as of my memory, I learned Pakistani AWACS are already in China for upgrade and may be new ones + existing ones are being upgraded to new standard.

WaAllah o Aalim o Khaibir.

 

[Indos]

And, since everyone is on the discussion of Pakistan's financial health, people must realise that since 18 September 2018, the incumbent Government has passed 4 federal budgets totalling $188.63 billion. So relax.

From that number, how much is funded by debt and how percentage of budget spend on paying the previous debt ???

 

[Princeps Senatus]

It is true US permission is needed for exporting KF21, but you can try first

Chinese until now is not ready to sell their Stealth to other country, while SK is already offering their jet as we speak ( even one European country is interested and also I believe Philippine and Malaysia)

If India is serious in building their AMCA and Tejas Mark 2, better dont buy anything that can make India respond back with another acquisition like more Rafale.

But I do hope better lasting peace between Pakistan and India can happen, so Pakistan can concentrate on the economy, while India will only face China

If we acquire Fifth gen and they respond by buying more Rafale, then that's ideal for us.

 

[Mr.Cringeworth]

Combat experience is one aspect - that platform is known in and out including every aspect of experience. I already wrote this elsewhere that the J-10s that land today will take 5 years to be fully integrated into the combat doctrine and 10 to have complete expertise of the system. Flying and taking it up into the air to fight is one thing but understanding availability rates, avionics and maintenance knowledge along with “nuances” takes a while.
Doesn’t mean they aren’t combat ready but it will only be the pilots from 15sq. A brand new block-72 landing in Pakistan can be taken up into the air by either 5sq, 9 or 11 sq pilots with relatively little training.

Why do you keep bringing the bloc 72's randomly in your conversation are you foreshadowing.

Now I'm really curious

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

From that number, how much is funded by debt and how percentage of budget spend on paying the previous debt ???

Aug 2018 to Dec 2021: PTI govt procures $42.748bn foreign loans; $32.7bn repaid

 

[Princeps Senatus]

there are other machines that could have saved our *** without fingering it for 40 years, but you won't understand

like what?

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I doubt the J-10 is as good as the Rafale but in the hands of the Indians...I don't know. Still it's a great addition to the Pakistani Air Force. Well done guys.

Lets put things in perspective.

Rafale, made by France.

J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak.

Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.

 

[tphuang]

A few things here. Getting an EW aircraft into PAF is more important than getting another fighter jet type. Good special missions platform are force multipliers. China is not going to export J-16Ds to PAF. It's not going to export any flanker types for obvious reasons. There is not point debating it. J-10 is too small. So, PAF should seek for Y-9 EW and ELINT type of aircraft. They are not sexy, but the former is critical in suppressing air defense and such. The latter is critical in collecting intelligence. Y-9s are not survivable as J-16Ds, but they are sufficient against an opponent like India. They would help PAF more than additional JF-17s/F-16s/J-10s would. Never underestimate the power of special missions platform. Very few countries have them and very few countries sell them. Aside from China, America and Australia, who really have dedicated EW fighter aircraft? Even aside from that, who has large EW aircraft?

I'm also not understanding this continued obsession over F-16. I understand this is an aircraft that has served PAF very well, but we are getting past the point when they really make sense for PAF. AESA radars are not created equal. In F-16s case, it's airframe has already been pushed to the limit. The internal layout for Block 50 or F-16V were not originally designed for AESA radar. Due to space constraints, heat management and such, there is limit on what kind of AESA radar could be installed in there. Keep in mind that J-10C has more than just AESA radar. J-10's entire internal layout and avionics architecture was updated from J-10A to J-10B in order to support the AESA radar, IRST, EW suite, MAWs and the rest of new generation of avionics. As such, J-10B/C was built with AESA radar and new avionics architecture in mind. Just as you won't get the same performance sticking an AESA radar into J-10A, you also won't get the same performance improvement sticking an AESA radar into block 50 F-16s.

There are reasons that PAF picked J-10C. I think they would've gotten it sooner if China had started using WS-10B on J-10s sooner. They do think it's a worthy foe to Rafale. And there are still future upgrades available that J-10s could support. I'm not sure how much further upgrade the F-16 platform can handle given the limitations I mentioned above.

 

[Bilal.]

Lets put things in perspective.

Rafale, made by France.

J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak.

Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.

And an 18trillion economy. So lots of funds to sink into RnD.

 

[siegecrossbow]

A few things here. Getting an EW aircraft into PAF is more important than getting another fighter jet type. Good special missions platform are force multipliers. China is not going to export J-16Ds to PAF. It's not going to export any flanker types for obvious reasons. There is not point debating it. J-10 is too small. So, PAF should seek for Y-9 EW and ELINT type of aircraft. They are not sexy, but the former is critical in suppressing air defense and such. The latter is critical in collecting intelligence. Y-9s are not survivable as J-16Ds, but they are sufficient against an opponent like India. They would help PAF more than additional JF-17s/F-16s/J-10s would. Never underestimate the power of special missions platform. Very few countries have them and very few countries sell them. Aside from China, America and Australia, who really have dedicated EW fighter aircraft? Even aside from that, who has large EW aircraft?

I'm also not understanding this continued obsession over F-16. I understand this is an aircraft that has served PAF very well, but we are getting past the point when they really make sense for PAF. AESA radars are not created equal. In F-16s case, it's airframe has already been pushed to the limit. The internal layout for Block 50 or F-16V were not originally designed for AESA radar. Due to space constraints, heat management and such, there is limit on what kind of AESA radar could be installed in there. Keep in mind that J-10C has more than just AESA radar. J-10's entire internal layout and avionics architecture was updated from J-10A to J-10B in order to support the AESA radar, IRST, EW suite, MAWs and the rest of new generation of avionics. As such, J-10B/C was built with AESA radar and new avionics architecture in mind. Just as you won't get the same performance sticking an AESA radar into J-10A, you also won't get the same performance improvement sticking an AESA radar into block 50 F-16s.

There are reasons that PAF picked J-10C. I think they would've gotten it sooner if China had started using WS-10B on J-10s sooner. They do think it's a worthy foe to Rafale. And there are still future upgrades available that J-10s could support. I'm not sure how much further upgrade the F-16 platform can handle given the limitations I mentioned above.

I wonder if the rumored J-10D is EW focused on top of having superior weapon load and additional RCS reduction measures. China does not need another dedicated EW bird since it has J-16D or the air force and J-15D for the navy, but Pakistan would benefit from tremendously from an EW variant of J-10. That said, they need to boost engine performance by quite a bit to power EW suite, which is easier said than done for a medium weight aircraft.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

OK. I checked, they havent arrived yet.

 

[SQ8]

I will always remember some of lousy mouths shooting it all publicly way before time, if something being told by a good friend; providing an opportunity to saffron grieving souls in D.C to prepare for counter lobbying in advance. I wish, such people and their so-called good friends/uncle/brother/father/ leaking anything could be dealt and done for the sake of National Interest.

Its the same with anything - I told no one and landed in Pakistan and by the time I went back from the visit half of the 300+ people extended family knew even after we asked to tell no one.

 

[Foinikas]

Lets put things in perspective.

Rafale, made by France.

J10 , made by China. The world factory, industrial juggernaut, semi conductor power house, army of top engineers and scientists, the only nation on the planet operating its own space station as we speak.

Not being biased or anything, but if I have to bet, I know where my money would be.

I'd still bet on the Rafale if it was used by a good Air Force.

 

[MH.Yang]

This would be an interesting sale but China has 24 Su-35 not 28!

Those 24 were also relatively forced due to friendly state of affairs and warming relations between Russia and China back in around 2015 times when China did try to pull out of the Su-35 deal which was considered and informally agreed between the two around 2010.

Su-35 being the hedge bet against J-11D program and J-20. J-20 became more successful than anticipated and the only one to take over the top tier in PLAAF out of the three paths - J-11D, Su-35, J-20.

J-16 was multirole and while it is better than both Su-35 and J-11D (even if the program finished as it was able) the J-16 is not air superiority focused as J-11D program is.

It was too diplomatically difficult around 2015 for China to renege on the Su-35 agreement with Russia and both discussed a compromise, a very small batch purchase as a gesture. Something Chinese agreed to happily because even though it spends money, at least those Su-35 are useful as even some small means of giving more work to adversary mission planning and strategic planning, it also offered China an insight into the best Russia could offer for 4.5 gen fighter. It is far superior in electronics and performance to Su-30MKI of India's and still working on the same basis of both radar, electronics, weapons, and kinematic performance, only far better in all those domains than the Su-30MKI. For example, their TVC performance and basis is very similar but with Su-35 being slightly better.

So lessons learned, aircraft and its abilities totally evaluated, mission planning distractions for Japanese and others used, it really is not that useful anymore. I think most Chinese military observers and decision making groups would love to sell them to Pakistan if such a sale has a path.

These fighters are not cheap, they are also very expensive to maintain and keep operational. Pakistan would have to go to Russia for parts and services since the engine is 117S and TVC is prone to needing more maintenance. Is it worth it for Pakistan? I'm sure China would be very happy to offload Su-35 but will Pakistan want to pay a fair price for them? I do not think it is in Pakistan's interest to have a small fleet of 24 Su-35 which are going to be extremely complicated for maintenance to keep operationally ready. Pakistan will have to negotiate with Russia and while Russia will not really care if they are sold to Pakistan, will they not care when India pressures them and buys their favor to keep parts delivery and service as slow as possible?

Yes. In fact, PAF has always had the option to obtain flankers, even those with AESA.
PLA has 95 su30s, and in 2018, PLA obtained another 24 su35s. The PLA's sale of these flankers does not violate the agreement with Russia.

The final question remains: does Pakistan really want to get flanks?

 

[Riz]

Its the same with anything - I told no one and landed in Pakistan and by the time I went back from the visit half of the 300+ people extended family knew even after we asked to tell no one.

Never pass any secret to zarvan again