PAF and US Weapons

[epinephrine]

How many Times russia attacked India ? Now compare it how many times USA is attacking pakistan.

Logic is simple that how much effective F16 is ?

the effectiveness of the f-16 has got nothing to do with US attacks on pak.we r quiet against US attacks because our leaders dont want to annoy their bosses in the US who are paying them millions to destabilize the country.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

The bottom line is that can we afford to fight a war with US or for that matter India? Detterence is one thing but actively seeking out a potential nuclear exchange is not an option in my book.

The time has come to converge economic interests and use these common interests to overide the usual half a century old sticking points. Taiwan is China's Kashmir, has it stopped China from trading with US and vice versa? Mature nations keep a sharp eye on their strategic long term interests but do not let go of their today for the sake of probable future scenarios.

BTW US defence suppliers like LM would be itching to show off the prowess of US weapons against the Russo/Euro a/c of IAF. Would you think they would allow their "Best Sellers" to get defeated beacause of the "Codes?" Me think not! It is all about dollars!!!!

Furthermore, US like any other strategic power does not put all its eggs in one basket, India or no India -- US knows fully well that India is not Eager Beaver Pakistan. It has a credible strategic vision and it has been working on it deligently from the early 90's. It has its work cut out to place India against China in a rope a dope scenario and milk it for defence dollars to fuel its Defence R&D.

India knows this and will play along as long and as far as it suits its strategic interests. Part of its strategic interests lies north of the Himalayas. It will jockey for economic emancipation but it will not go into an open conflict with China unless it can win a clear tactical gain. Once again there are long standing Kashmir like issues of India with China, but they are forging ahead with greater economic dependencies. It is the US who is nudging India into a more anti China stance.

US on the other hand will keep a bogey alive on the side lines to coax India to "Do more. " That bogey is obvoiusly, the good old boys in the west!

BTW US exported oil for the first time after sixties! That is a small news item but huge reprecussions on the strategic game play. It seems Uncle Sam is moving fast on its strategic game plan to be off dependencies on Arabian Oil as its gives them greater flexibility when dealing with our Arab Bros.

 

[Developereo]

BTW US defence suppliers like LM would be itching to show off the prowess of US weapons against the Russo/Euro a/c of IAF. Would you think they would allow their "Best Sellers" to get defeated beacause of the "Codes?" Me think not! It is all about dollars!!!!

If dollars were all that mattered, the US would have opened their arsenal to China -- or Iran -- who will pay top dollar for US tech. The fact is that dollars take a distant back seat to national security. Pakistan is seen as an obstacle to long term US interests: both as China's ally and as an impediment to their proxy, India's, hegemony.

Like I wrote earlier, the US has all but admitted that Balkanization of Pakistan is a strategic US goal -- one can only hope Pakistan stops living in the past that Uncle Sam will save the day somehow. This is not the 1970s -- US interests have done a 180 and we had better get with the program.

Moreover, the codes may be supplied to India by Israel, irrespective of how they obtain them.

Furthermore, US like any other strategic power does not put all its eggs in one basket, India or no India -- US knows fully well that India is not Eager Beaver Pakistan. It has a credible strategic vision and it has been working on it deligently from the early 90's. It has its work cut out to place India against China in a rope a dope scenario and milk it for defence dollars to fuel its Defence R&D.

This contradicts your previous paragraph. How can the US milk India for R&D (presumably by supplying them with US weapons) and, at the same time, portray a Pakistan v/s India fight as a showcase of American v/s Russian-Euro tech?

US on the other hand will keep a bogey alive on the side lines to coax India to "Do more. " That bogey is obvoiusly, the good old boys in the west!

India is widening the quality gap with Pakistan. Earlier, it was Russian tech but, increasingly, they are using Israeli tech. As people know, much of Israeli tech is based on American tech so, indirectly, India is getting some of the best American tech.

Compared to that, the US is offering ancient technology to Pakistan, and even that, grudgingly, to stop Pakistan from running full speed into the Chinese camp. The only reason Pakistan has even the faintest hope of competing with India is because of access to Chinese (and some European) technology.

 

[SQ8]

If dollars were all that mattered, the US would have opened their arsenal to China -- or Iran -- who will pay top dollar for US tech. The fact is that dollars take a distant back seat to national security. Pakistan is seen as an obstacle to long term US interests: both as China's ally and as an impediment to their proxy, India's, hegemony.

Like I wrote earlier, the US has all but admitted that Balkanization of Pakistan is a strategic US goal -- one can only hope Pakistan stops living in the past that Uncle Sam will save the day somehow. This is not the 1970s -- US interests have done a 180 and we had better get with the program.

Moreover, the codes may be supplied to India by Israel, irrespective of how they obtain them.



This contradicts your previous paragraph. How can the US milk India for R&D (presumably by supplying them with US weapons) and, at the same time, portray a Pakistan v/s India fight as a showcase of American v/s Russian-Euro tech?



India is widening the quality gap with Pakistan. Earlier, it was Russian tech but, increasingly, they are using Israeli tech. As people know, much of Israeli tech is based on American tech so, indirectly, India is getting some of the best American tech.

Compared to that, the US is offering ancient technology to Pakistan, and even that, grudgingly, to stop Pakistan from running full speed into the Chinese camp. The only reason Pakistan has even the faintest hope of competing with India is because of access to Chinese (and some European) technology.

Perception varies.. when a certain section of the population keeps that perception.. the US may want to keep encouraging it.

However, today's India is far from "US free"...
P-8I's, C-17's, AH-64's.. all sorts of weaponry and electronics.
I have to agree that while dollars are prominent players..
The US will not give nations like Pakistan or even egypt more than the second best to what they provide India and Israel.
Its simply handing the other guy a revolver against a machine gun knowing that the guy with the revolver will loose but assuring him anyway that its a Good revolver.

Our problem in competing with India is all based on cash.. Many a European suppliers are still open to providing us excellent electronic equipment but for our lack of funds.
China still has catching up to do.. and while they are generous in providing us whatever weapons we ask for on loans, these loans come with interest that in now unaffordable for us. We are stuck between a Rock and a Hard place when it comes to weapon procurement and maintenance thanks to our economic conditions.

 

[Waffen SS]

The problem with almost all defence forums is that we are too focused on a particular weapon system and its specs that we forget that:

WAR is not about the specs of a few weapons, its about the grand strategy, the tactics, the diplomacy and politics and finally the human and material resources.

---------------
How can the PAF take on the USAF and her allies with 60-65 F-16s? Even if there were Eurofighters instead of F-16s, PAF just can't defeat them.

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And by the way, NATIONS fight wars, not just AIRFORCES. Is Pakistan in a position to fight, sustain and win a war?

 

[epinephrine]

The problem with almost all defence forums is that we are too focused on a particular weapon system and its specs that we forget that:

WAR is not about the specs of a few weapons, its about the grand strategy, the tactics, the diplomacy and politics and finally the human and material resources.

---------------
How can the PAF take on the USAF and her allies with 60-65 F-16s? Even if there were Eurofighters instead of F-16s, PAF just can't defeat them.

----------------
And by the way, NATIONS fight wars, not just AIRFORCES. Is Pakistan in a position to fight, sustain and win a war?

u r right to some extent but does it mean that we should keep on getting humiliated again n again? we should draw some line and we shouldnt let any body to cross that line.iran shot down a US drone.has US attacked iran after that?u should meet the relatives of the 26 soldiers who were matyred in mohmand incident perhaps u will think abt changing the national strategy of "bayghairti"

 

[Waffen SS]

u r right to some extent but does it mean that we should keep on getting humiliated again n again? we should draw some line and we shouldnt let any body to cross that line.iran shot down a US drone.has US attacked iran after that?u should meet the relatives of the 26 soldiers who were matyred in mohmand incident perhaps u will think abt changing the national strategy of "bayghairti"

There is no such thing as "ghairat" or "baighairti". These things only work at personal level, not at state level. States operate on the basis of politics, economics and diplomacy. We just get too carried away with this EMOTIONAL BS uttered by some stupid non-practical right-wing pseudo-intellectuals.

What do you want? Pakistan should statrt WW III over the Salala Incident. My dear, the real world doesn't work that way. Atleast not nowadays.

 

[Ark-Angel]

The basic question remains unanswered. Plus, no one is considering a war against US but war against US Allies is a possibility.

 

[Storm Force]

THE BIG QUESTION FOR PAKISTANIS SHOULD BE

IN THE NEXT INDO PAK WAR

will USA support india directly or indirectly

Or Pakistan...............

WHERE DO LONG TERM USA interests point too

who has all the diplomatic clout

 

[Strigon]

THE BIG QUESTION FOR PAKISTANIS SHOULD BE

IN THE NEXT INDO PAK WAR

will USA support india directly or indirectly

Or Pakistan...............

WHERE DO LONG TERM USA interests point too

who has all the diplomatic clout

Question to you is, since when did you start entertaining the idea of 'Next Indo Pak war'. In top military offices sit intelligent people unlike over eager war mongers we see here itching for a military conflict. Both being nuclear powers rules out the possibility of war unless world has decided to end itself by supporting one nuclear power over the other militarily. And I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen.

Answer to 2nd part of your statement is, US has proved it time and again that it will support whoever is proving to be in their interest at any given time which is what all countries do be it the right or wrong thing to do.

As far as weapon sales goes, whats wrong in selling a person a lower tech item for a high price when you and your allys have the very best world has to offer is the thought process behind all this. They know how to maintain a balance.

 

[epinephrine]

Question to you is, since when did you start entertaining the idea of 'Next Indo Pak war'. In top military offices sit intelligent people unlike over eager war mongers we see here itching for a military conflict. Both being nuclear powers rules out the possibility of war unless world has decided to end itself by supporting one nuclear power over the other militarily. And I'm pretty sure that isn't going to happen.

Answer to 2nd part of your statement is, US has proved it time and again that it will support whoever is proving to be in their interest at any given time which is what all countries do be it the right or wrong thing to do.

As far as weapon sales goes, whats wrong in selling a person a lower tech item for a high price when you and your allys have the very best world has to offer is the thought process behind all this. They know how to maintain a balance.

keeping in view the stratgies which our leaders followed in past wars i really doubt their intelligence

 

[Strigon]

keeping in view the stratgies which our leaders followed in past wars i really doubt their intelligence

There are always some blunders in every country's history and there is always a person A who thinks he would have done a better job and behind A there is a person B thinking he could have done even better.

In some cases difficult decisions have to be made since those were the only choices available at the time. It would be a good idea to give an example of what you think was done wrong.

 

[epinephrine]

There is no such thing as "ghairat" or "baighairti". These things only work at personal level, not at state level. States operate on the basis of politics, economics and diplomacy. We just get too carried away with this EMOTIONAL BS uttered by some stupid non-practical right-wing pseudo-intellectuals.

What do you want? Pakistan should statrt WW III over the Salala Incident. My dear, the real world doesn't work that way. Atleast not nowadays.

typical pakistani thinking.i dont want war against any country but soverignty of pak is at my top priority.the reason why we cant do anything is dat our leaders have made us so much dependent on US aid that they think they cant live without that.it is the money which has blinded them.u know wat iqbal said that nature can forgive the mistakes of a person but never forgives a nation.thousands have pakistanis have died in drone attacks,in suicide blasts,in political activites in karachi n we dont even speak a word against it.we will never rise with this thinking that "u die so that i can live".
pride of any nation always exists.thier is always a state called"ghairat".the moment ur pride is gone u r gone too.read history of iran,afghanistan n subcontinent n u ll see the difference.it is the pride of the afghans n iranis that is driving them to accpet the challenges n on the other hand subcontinent had always been a slave to super powers in every era n we r having the same genes of slavery.
if US simply asks pak to hand over the nukes or get ready for bombardment.wat ll u do then?u ll give them wat they want without putting up any fight,as ur post suggests, or u ll prefer to die with honour?wat i m saying that we should try to be peaceful but dont let anybody to cross the boundaries.

 

[MastanKhan]

Perhaps I read the OP differently than most others.

The OP is not talking about fighting the US -- the concept is so ridiculous that it is a non-starter. The point, rather, seems to be what some people already commented: will the US weapons work against US allies?

The regional geopolitics has done a 180, but we still haven't caught on. US plans for the region favor India unquestionably over Pakistan, to the point that the US has all but abandoned the previous pretense of maintaining parity in the region. India gets offered almost all the latest toys, while Pakistan has to make do with decades old technology.

Factor in the wikileaks about Russia/Israel exchanging access codes for weapons systems and, regardless of whether you believe the leaks, the fact remains that there is a very real possibility our weapons systems may be compromised even against India. This is why nobody believes that all the fancy American toys in the Arab arsenals will as much as hurt a mosquito in Israel.

So, does the possibility exist that India will be able to compromise Pakistan's weapons systems by obtaining information through Israel or even directly from the Pentagon?

I believe we can't rule out this possibility.

Hi,
Sir, they won't be neutralized against india----all american weapons used by pakistan would be able and capable against india----where do you people come with these things---.

That is the only oppurtunity to see american weapons in actual contest against the russian systems----why would american defence industry do that----. Will never happen.

 

[Donatello]

THE BIG QUESTION FOR PAKISTANIS SHOULD BE

IN THE NEXT INDO PAK WAR

will USA support india directly or indirectly

Or Pakistan...............

WHERE DO LONG TERM USA interests point too

who has all the diplomatic clout

You're one lucky person to be still around PDF, despite trolling in every single thread.