PAF AND IAF 4th gen Aircraft Losses, shocking comparison

[Myth_buster_1]

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

In 1990s PAF had NO spare parts support from US which resulted in higher crash rate, and compare PAF 3 crashes with IAF 30+ since 1990???

Wrong.
Su-30 airworthiness crossed 70% whereas IAF MiG 29 always had more than 75% airworthiness & even IN MiG 29K is at 68% since 2018.

Wrong, IAF Su-30 airworthiness before 2016 was less then 60% according to IAF sources so 70% airworthiness is only 15% of its service life.

It is actually PAF F-16 fleet which had quite low flight hours in the 90s due to US sanctions forcing PAF to reduce flying hours to save spares.

In 1990s it was low hours because of US sanctions but since 2005 our F-16s fly a lot more in comparison to any of IAF fighters.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Your US/Russian generalization doesn't work for the SU30 fleet which has suffered about 3 times lesser attrition than the F16 fleet. Neither does it work for the M2K fleet, which has the highest attrition rate among the 4 Gens, yet it's non-Russian/Chinese.

Actually attrition rate is measured in times of flying hours and per flying hours Su 30 accident rate is a bit higher than that of F-16 as only 600-700 Su30 built in comparison to 4500+ F16.

 

[Pak-Canuck]

Did you even bother to read the title, it is strictly regarding 4th gen jets only which is why I am only including 4th gen jets for both IAF & PAF. So figure for PAF is 197 4th gen jets and for India it is 470 4th gen jets.


Also PAF Mirage and F7 crashes have been pretty high since 2012 as 25 Mirages and F7s crashed causing deaths of 17 pilots in comparison IAF lost 22 Mig 21/23/27 since 2012 causing deaths of just 4 pilots.

I replied to him about the fact of 4th gen jets being quoted.

But if we are only comparing 3 gen planes then don't forget the 10 jaguars also lost since 2012, pushing the total to 32 not 22

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Wrong, IAF Su-30 airworthiness before 2016 was less then 60% according to IAF sources so 70% airworthiness is only 15% of its service life.
In 1990s it was low hours because of US sanctions but since 2005 our F-16s fly a lot more in comparison to any of IAF fighters

Still less than IAF Su30 & mig29 hours

But if we are only comparing 3 gen planes then don't forget the 10 jaguars also lost since 2012, pushing the total to 32 not 22

32 loss for IAF is still a lower rate than PAFs 25, since IAF (Mig 21/24/17 + Jaguar) fleet is much larger than PAF (Mirage + F7) fleet.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Still less than IAF Su30 & mig29 hours


32 loss for IAF is still a lower rate than PAFs 25, since IAF (Mig 21/24/17 + Jaguar) fleet is much larger than PAF (Mirage + F7) fleet.

PAF F-16s fly more then IAF SU-30 and Mig-29 which are grounded half of the time while PAF F-16s have been conducting air strikes since 2005. IAF is not even capable of flying more then 10 Su-30 at same time.

 

[Windjammer]

IAF SU-30.....MiG-29......Jaguars......Twin Engine Jets.
All PAF aircraft are single engine machines.
Besides, F-16s soon after being inducted into PAF went into combat against Soviet/Afghan aircraft for almost a decade and has been involved in WOT along with JF-17s for last several years,....meaning extra thousand of hours flying.... when was the last any IAF aircraft fired in anger.
PAF F-16 fleet has been awarded 100.000 incident flying hours by P&w .....something the IAF can never achieve.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Wrong.
Su-30 airworthiness crossed 70% whereas IAF MiG 29 always had more than 75% airworthiness & even IN MiG 29K is at 68% since 2018.

It is actually PAF F-16 fleet which had quite low flight hours in the 90s due to US sanctions forcing PAF to reduce flying hours to save spares.

Hold you horses. The bold part. Since 2018 is just a year ago, what was the airworthiness before going decades back?

 

[Pak-Canuck]

Still less than IAF Su30 & mig29 hours


32 loss for IAF is still a lower rate than PAFs 25, since IAF (Mig 21/24/17 + Jaguar) fleet is much larger than PAF (Mirage + F7) fleet.

IAF Mig-21/23/27 and Jaguar Fleet since 2012 = 325

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_military_aircraft

so with 32 planes lost rate is = 9.8%

PAF Mirage and F-7 fleet since 2012 = 260

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Pakistan_Air_Force_aircraft

with 25 planes lost (though if you can provide source I would appreciate it) rate is = 9.6%

so no, IAF gen 3 loss rate is not lower it is the same or in fact very marginally higher, that too if we take 2012 as the benchmark and not earlier.

 

[Wrath]

Aircraft attrition is a norm for all air forces. These can be attributed to accidents (eg bird hits), poor maintenance or enemy action. However the frequency of attrition is what distinguishes competency. We can go on into big detail about the 3rd generation fighter plane attrition but for now let's focus just on the 4th gen fighters such as the F-16, Mig-29, Mirage 2000's, SU-30's and JF-17's

FIRST, the PAF

Since induction PAF has lost 9 F-16's, according to the most up to date database:

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/PAF/

Interesting fact in which 8 of those losses happened in 1994 or earlier, and that SINCE 1994 there has only been one loss which was in 2009.

And to my knowledge there have been 2 JF-17's lost (someone correct me if I am wrong), meaning a total of 11 4th generation planes lost since induction, and ONLY 3 SINCE 1994. A pretty decent record.

NOW, the IAF

Since induction, the IAF has lost an admitted 42 4th generation planes, this is according to their own database:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/Accidents/

These include:
12 Mirage 2000's
19 Mig-29's (including the one that went down couple of days ago in Goa)
11 Su-30's (NOT INCLUDING the possible Feb 27th one, in which case it would be 12 and therefore 43 lost in total )

and SINCE 1994 COMPARED TO THE PAF 3, IAF lost 33 4th gen planes (8 Mirage 2000, 14 Mig-29's, and 11 Su-30's)


Pretty stark comparison

Proud .

 

[Windjammer]

He is a newbie, you should try to avoid debates with newbs as it does not lead to intelligent or meaningful discussions.

Yea the other day he was boasting that it's the first MiG-29K loss in air......according to him ground losses are different.

 

[TOPGUN]

Down in flames is indian armed forces everyday practice lolz lmao.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Two wrong data (In both Mirage 2000 incident of Oct 2004 & Su-30 incident of Apr 2012 the jets were fully repaired back into service).
So correct figure is 40.

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is only 8.5% of fleet strength.

Pakistan accquired around 85 F-16s & 112 JF-17 (total 197) so crash rate is 5.6% of fleet strength.
A very minor difference considering that US made planes have a much lower crash rate than Russian ones.

So the ratio is 1:2.4 b/w PAF and IAF among 4th gen. Interesting

 

[Nasr]

Now India accquired a total of 470 4th gen jets as of Nov 2019 ( 266 Su-30s, 125 MiG-29, 59 Mirage 200, 20 Tejas) which means the crash rate is 8.5%.

125 Fulcrums? As far as I know, Indian Air Force has 60 odd MiG-29s. How did you come up with the 125 figure? Even if you included the navy's MiG-29Ks, you would still not arrive at the 125 figure.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

PAF F-16s fly more then IAF SU-30 and Mig-29 which are grounded half of the time while PAF F-16s have been conducting air strikes since 2005. IAF is not even capable of flying more then 10 Su-30 at same time.

IAF practice missions are far more than PAF practixe +strike missions.
Also this IAF is in track to get 280,000 flying hours which is far far more than PAF

IAF Mig-21/23/27 and Jaguar Fleet since 2012 = 325

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_military_aircraft

so with 32 planes lost rate is = 9.8%

PAF Mirage and F-7 fleet since 2012 = 260

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Pakistan_Air_Force_aircraft

with 25 planes lost (though if you can provide source I would appreciate it) rate is = 9.6%

so no, IAF gen 3 loss rate is not lower it is the same or in fact very marginally higher, that too if we take 2012 as the benchmark and not earlier.

PAF has no more than 120 mirages (6 sqdns and a few in CCS)
Also in between 2012-19 PAF F7 fleet strength fell from 100 to 70.

 

[Yasser76]

Aircraft attrition is a norm for all air forces. These can be attributed to accidents (eg bird hits), poor maintenance or enemy action. However the frequency of attrition is what distinguishes competency. We can go on into big detail about the 3rd generation fighter plane attrition but for now let's focus just on the 4th gen fighters such as the F-16, Mig-29, Mirage 2000's, SU-30's and JF-17's

FIRST, the PAF

Since induction PAF has lost 9 F-16's, according to the most up to date database:

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/PAF/

Interesting fact in which 8 of those losses happened in 1994 or earlier, and that SINCE 1994 there has only been one loss which was in 2009.

And to my knowledge there have been 2 JF-17's lost (someone correct me if I am wrong), meaning a total of 11 4th generation planes lost since induction, and ONLY 3 SINCE 1994. A pretty decent record.

NOW, the IAF

Since induction, the IAF has lost an admitted 42 4th generation planes, this is according to their own database:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/Accidents/

These include:
12 Mirage 2000's
19 Mig-29's (including the one that went down couple of days ago in Goa)
11 Su-30's (NOT INCLUDING the possible Feb 27th one, in which case it would be 12 and therefore 43 lost in total )

and SINCE 1994 COMPARED TO THE PAF 3, IAF lost 33 4th gen planes (8 Mirage 2000, 14 Mig-29's, and 11 Su-30's)


Pretty stark comparison

As you said, does not include recent MIG-29 crash or the Dhruv crash that injured GOC Northern Command, so that brings the tally up to 15 this year. That is shocking, even for an air arm there size. Basically every 3 weeks they will lose a plane. 56 Jaguars lost out of a total fleet of 135 ordered, that is around 40%!