OBL raid: US raid team member claims Chinook resupply helicopter evaded attack by PAF F-16

[airomerix]

I would go back to the basics of air combat and find something called situational awareness.

First - I seriously doubt any pilot worth his salt wants to go down to tree top level at low speed at night.. even if it is to engage a lumbering Chinook.

Then he has to find the said chopper among ground clutter, which even the very effective APG-68 has trouble with.
Considering this was the mountainous terrain on our west; there was plenty of clutter available.

Then, comes as aspect of other threats nearby along with a degrading electronic environment which was faced that day.

So unless we want a CFIT like a few days ago - pilots tend to want to engage choppers with missile systems from altitude and not try to gun it. When they do, its mostly positioned slash and dash dives in the hope that the chopper has not seen them. If it does see them, even the vulnerable Chinook can turn 30 degrees per second to get out of the way.

What matters at the end is the combination of all these things and the pilots; and while we Pakistanis tend to have some of the Indian tendencies to think our pilots are invincible.. those SoF pilots are among the best helicopter pilots in the world and routinely play tag with A-10 pilots in exercises.

I would repeat what I said before - Pakistan was outclassed by a MUCh stronger force with many more and advanced resources. Not to mention the Leadership factor which sealed the fate of any face saving.

I see your point.

However, Pakistani F-16 pilots are not just average everyday trainees. They are seasoned pilots with lots of hours of training which includes close air support.

The problem is, while these choppers were sitting inside Abbottabad for 20-25 minutes, they could have been taken out by a variety of means. A strafing run by our single fighter would have rendered these helicopters useless.

None of this happened because Army knew whats happening and F-16s were'nt allowed to even engage. Whats the point of chasing a fleeing slow moving aircraft after it spends half an hour in your territory, and you're sitting in a fighter?

As for air combat basics, a couple of AIM-9L's was more than enough to pick up the Chinook's heat signature. 30 degrees or not, sidewinders pull in excess of 70g's so targetting can never be a challenge.

All i'm saying is, this hunt never took place, simply because Americans would never risk their choppers and men to go inside Pakistan WITHOUT air cover unless they have an understanding on the diplomatic level that there will be no military response..

EDIT: I have not yet touched the night capability of F-16s and other Pakistani assets. Your theory was true if we were in 60s or 70s with F-6s.

 

[CriticalThought]

I see your point.

However, Pakistani F-16 pilots are not just average everyday trainees. They are seasoned pilots with lots of hours of training which includes close air support.

The problem is, while these choppers were sitting inside Abbottabad for 20-25 minutes, they could have been taken out by a variety of means. A strafing run by our single fighter would have rendered these helicopters useless.

None of this happened because Army knew whats happening and F-16s were'nt allowed to even engage. Whats the point of chasing a fleeing slow moving aircraft after it spends half an hour in your territory, and you're sitting in a fighter?

As for air combat basics, a couple of AIM-9L's was more than enough to pick up the Chinook's heat signature. 30 degrees or not, sidewinders pull in excess of 70g's so targetting can never be a challenge.

All i'm saying is, this hunt never took place, simply because Americans would never risk their choppers and men to go inside Pakistan WITHOUT air cover unless they have an understanding on the diplomatic level that there will be no military response..

They wouldn't risk their personnel based on diplomatic or military guarantees. The Pakistani defence establishment is too unpredictable and when national security is at stake, spur of the moment decisions can always be taken. My guess is that there was air support available, if not directly overhead then somewhere close to the border. The top leadership would have been apprised of the consequences of engagement. I mean Obama himself was in the situation room. Even then, they lost one chopper and we only have their explanations about what went wrong. I keep an open mind about what might have happened.

 

[airomerix]

They wouldn't risk their personnel based on diplomatic or military guarantees. The Pakistani defence establishment is too unpredictable and when national security is at stake, spur of the moment decisions can always be taken. My guess is that there was air support available, if not directly overhead then somewhere close to the border. The top leadership would have been apprised of the consequences of engagement. I mean Obama himself was in the situation room. Even then, they lost one chopper and we only have their explanations about what went wrong. I keep an open mind about what might have happened.

With people like Pasha, Kiyani and Zardari sitting on top, I dont think Pakistan had the luxury to make any move of an 'unpredictable' nature. According to someone in the Air Defense branch, we ordered all radar sites to switch to high level or shut down mode so the crew may not even 'see' who's coming. It was all planned in advance.

Also, the downed US Chopper was also an American gimmick. They left a chopper to show the world that they did indeed come this far. They never intended to show OBL's body (because they had none), the next hard evidence is the aircraft itself inside Pakistan.

Again, in an event of any unpredictability by Pakistan, especially our F-16 chasing a Chinooks (lol), their F-18s were very close by and they would have violated our borders, engaged with our fighters and give these choppers time to escape.

Our chips were down that day. That's the truth.

This article isn't worth a salt. He is just trying to feel 'good' for being part of something he thinks was unprecedented.

 

[CriticalThought]

With people like Pasha, Kiyani and Zardari sitting on top, I dont think Pakistan had the luxury to make any move of an 'unpredictable' nature. According to someone in the Air Defense branch, we ordered all radar sites to switch to high level or shut down mode so the crew may not even 'see' who's coming. It was all planned in advance.

Also, the downed US Chopper was also an American gimmick. They left a chopper to show the world that they did indeed come this far. They never intended to show OBL's body (because they had none), the next hard evidence is the aircraft itself inside Pakistan.

Again, in an event of any unpredictability by Pakistan, especially our F-16 chasing a Chinooks (lol), their F-18s were very close by and they would have violated our borders, engaged with our fighters and give these choppers time to escape.

Our chips were down that day. That's the truth.

This article isn't worth a salt. He is just trying to feel 'good' for being part of something he thinks was unprecedented.

Agreed. But I was implying unpredictability due to lower level operatives getting trigger happy.

There is another alternate explanation. The deal between Pakistan and US was OBL would be taken alive. It is hard to comprehend why the leadership would allow Abbottabad to become and Abattoir. There isn't any sense in it. The Americans broke their side of the deal and Pakistan extracted its pound of flesh. The entire area was teeming with military personnel. It would have been easy to put an RPG round on target. Remember, I am just presenting an alternation hypothetical explanation.

 

[k s ahmed]

so now helicopters have strted dodgin jets like f-16? haha
i mean it cant happen in any video game even . that heli pilot can f-off.. we know how these people have big mouths once they manage to escape

 

[LeGenD]

With USN F/A-18 Super Hornets lurking alongside the Afghan border, Rao Qamar Suleman barred the F-16s to engage with the choppers. Two F-16A's were on CAP at that time.

This fool thinks the F-16 couldn't engage his slow moving rotor aircraft. These matters were decided way above the pay grade of this idiot and he thinks he survived because he was. clever. Sounds like Minti Agerwal 1.0

However, Unfortunately, this will remain a leadership crisis of Asif Ali Zardari, which spurred down to the Rao Qamar Suleman (God knows how he climbed the ranks). Obama had to win and this had to be done.

If anyone thinks these Chinooks are capable enough to evade gun sights of fighters, then he or she needs to go back to the drawing board of learning basics about air combat.

While combat aircraft can shoot down helicopters, they are not designed to chase [evading-types] on a consistent basis given their sheer speed. Evading-types is the key term; these are not your everyday helicopters against whom target practicing would be a norm. These are designed to frustrate target acquisition on them with broad-range Electronic Warfare capabilities and signature-masking techniques (these will not give the impression of being a helicopter on radar screens in the first place; these will be like unidentified blips/anamolies), and they can also be armed with a potent Air-to-Air missile suite. Not to forget that these helicopters might be taking cues from additional airborne assets operating nearby (entire USAF is networked to the core). Only the relevant PAF pilot can tell what he was experiencing that day.

 

[Kompromat]

Its not even April's fool yet.

 

[LeGenD]

I would go back to the basics of air combat and find something called situational awareness.

First - I seriously doubt any pilot worth his salt wants to go down to tree top level at low speed at night.. even if it is to engage a lumbering Chinook.

Then he has to find the said chopper among ground clutter, which even the very effective APG-68 has trouble with.
Considering this was the mountainous terrain on our west; there was plenty of clutter available.

Then, comes as aspect of other threats nearby along with a degrading electronic environment which was faced that day.

So unless we want a CFIT like a few days ago - pilots tend to want to engage choppers with missile systems from altitude and not try to gun it. When they do, its mostly positioned slash and dash dives in the hope that the chopper has not seen them. If it does see them, even the vulnerable Chinook can turn 30 degrees per second to get out of the way.

What matters at the end is the combination of all these things and the pilots; and while we Pakistanis tend to have some of the Indian tendencies to think our pilots are invincible.. those SoF pilots are among the best helicopter pilots in the world and routinely play tag with A-10 pilots in exercises.

I would repeat what I said before - Pakistan was outclassed by a MUCh stronger force with many more and advanced resources. Not to mention the Leadership factor which sealed the fate of any face saving.

Brilliantly put, Sir.

A realistic take finally.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Its not even April's fool yet.

In Bharat everyday is 1st day of April,Govt and Bakths make a jackass out of general Bharti Public everyday when it comes to Pakistan.

 

[airomerix]

While combat aircraft can shoot down helicopters, they are not designed to chase [evading-types] on a consistent basis given their sheer speed. Evading-types is the key term; these are not your everyday helicopters against whom target practicing would be a norm. These are designed to frustrate target acquisition on them with broad-range Electronic Warfare capabilities and signature-masking techniques (these will not give the impression of being a helicopter on radar screens in the first place; these will be like unidentified blips/anamolies), and they can also be armed with a potent Air-to-Air missile suite. Not to forget that these helicopters might be taking cues from additional airborne assets operating nearby (entire USAF is networked to the core). Not wise to jump to conclusion over these matters.

The debate is not whether F-16s retain the capability to shoot down the Chinooks or not. It is, Whether did it happen or not.

Even if we agree that the chase took place, for a fighter to lock any slow mover depends on its range form the target. If the range is linearly appropriate, it is peanuts.

On the contrary, If the range is less, lets say 1-2 nm, dropping to a slow speed gets the target off the scale and it can get difficult.

But the theory of F-16s wanting to shoot down Chinooks and failure is BS. We would have got them if we wanted to. The question of capability arises way later.

 

[hacker J]

I would go back to the basics of air combat and find something called situational awareness.

First - I seriously doubt any pilot worth his salt wants to go down to tree top level at low speed at night.. even if it is to engage a lumbering Chinook.

Then he has to find the said chopper among ground clutter, which even the very effective APG-68 has trouble with.
Considering this was the mountainous terrain on our west; there was plenty of clutter available.

Then, comes as aspect of other threats nearby along with a degrading electronic environment which was faced that day.

So unless we want a CFIT like a few days ago - pilots tend to want to engage choppers with missile systems from altitude and not try to gun it. When they do, its mostly positioned slash and dash dives in the hope that the chopper has not seen them. If it does see them, even the vulnerable Chinook can turn 30 degrees per second to get out of the way.

What matters at the end is the combination of all these things and the pilots; and while we Pakistanis tend to have some of the Indian tendencies to think our pilots are invincible.. those SoF pilots are among the best helicopter pilots in the world and routinely play tag with A-10 pilots in exercises.

I would repeat what I said before - Pakistan was outclassed by a MUCh stronger force with many more and advanced resources. Not to mention the Leadership factor which sealed the fate of any face saving.

Plus the US air defense network which would have been monitoring paf assets to direct a safe route out. And obviously these rotor crafts would have reduced radar signature and thermal signature to make detection impossible.

 

[LeGenD]

The debate is not whether F-16s retain the capability to shoot down the Chinooks or not. It is, Whether did it happen or not.

Even if we agree that the chase took place, for a fighter to lock any slow mover depends on its range form the target. If the range is linearly appropriate, it is peanuts.

On the contrary, If the range is less, lets say 1-2 nm, dropping to a slow speed gets the target off the scale and it can get difficult.

But the theory of F-16s wanting to shoot down Chinooks and failure is BS. We would have got them if we wanted to. The question of capability arises way later.

Well, my brother, the relevant PAF pilot who was scrambled on that day can tell us something. Not sure if he would be willing to and/or muted.

 

[airomerix]

Well, my brother, the relevant PAF pilot who was scrambled on that day can tell us something. Not sure if he would be willing to and/or muted.

It would be interesting to know though.

To my understanding, the moment PAF fighters would be vectored towards US assets, all hell would break lose and all these Growlers, super hornets and Eagles would enter the fight to save these assets.

Pakistan is not walk in the park for US like Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[LeGenD]

It would be interesting to know though.

To my understanding, the moment PAF fighters would be vectored towards US assets, all hell would break lose and all these Growlers, super hornets and Eagles would enter the fight to save these assets.

Pakistan is not walk in the park for US like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Of-course, USAF was on standby on that day and numerous assets were in fact airborne. To my knowledge, they were prepared for any eventuality on a much bigger scale, should the punches be thrown. This was an exceedingly high-stakes mission, particularly in a country as militarized as Pakistan.

I understand the position of Pakistani top brass to not be willing to throw entire country into chaos over these events.

 

[dbc]

Of-course, USAF was on standby on that day and numerous assets were in fact airborne. To my knowledge, they were prepared for any eventuality on a much bigger scale, should the punches be thrown. This was an exceedingly high-stakes mission, particularly in a country as militarized as Pakistan.

I understand the position of Pakistani top brass to not be willing to throw entire country into chaos over these events.

The rumor I heard at the time is that the US contacted the pilot on guard frequency and told him to RTB - US assets were in country on General Kayani approved business. By the time he contacted HQ for instructions and received them - we were gone.

Surely can't be true? Can it? Probably, I don't think any PAF pilot wants the infamy of starting a war with the US.