OBL raid: US raid team member claims Chinook resupply helicopter evaded attack by PAF F-16

[MastanKhan]

People haven’t been told the truth yet, it’s got nothing to do with PAF capabilities etc.

I’ve heard different aspects of the same story thrice in truth, from three separate sources, including one who might well have been in the loop. And these stories all corroborate one another.

They were here courtesy of our military, you could almost call the ‘raid’ a joint operation. They were never meant to be intercepted. It was pre-planned and agreed by both sides.

Story changed at the eleventh hour due to unforeseen circumstances. Obama chose not to risk it and threw Kayani and Pak army (and the whole of Pakistan with them) under the bus.

This being the real story will get out sometime in the future.

Hi,

That is what I have been saying indirectly---.

Kiyani and Pasha would have made a coup de'tat---if they had understood whta america had in plan for pakistan---which was to sabotage the integrity of pakistan on the world forum---.

It was a moment to think on your feet and act right away---.

This act was next to impossible for Kiyani to do---because him being the quiet man was more of a thinker than a man of action---for reason better known to him---he stayed quiet as did Pasha---.

At least one of them had to have the character to speak up for pakistan---and they both failed miserably as did Qamar Suleiman---.

America had planned this action thru and thru---what would happen---how the US will act---how pakistan would act---then US would change direction suddenly---and pakistanis being pakistanis---would be totally at a loss what to say---.

And US will ultimately put the blame on pakistan for the OBL scenario---whereas it was the US all the time that was responsible for the OBL scenario---.

 

[TsAr]

With people like Pasha, Kiyani and Zardari sitting on top, I dont think Pakistan had the luxury to make any move of an 'unpredictable' nature. According to someone in the Air Defense branch, we ordered all radar sites to switch to high level or shut down mode so the crew may not even 'see' who's coming. It was all planned in advance.

Also, the downed US Chopper was also an American gimmick. They left a chopper to show the world that they did indeed come this far. They never intended to show OBL's body (because they had none), the next hard evidence is the aircraft itself inside Pakistan.

Again, in an event of any unpredictability by Pakistan, especially our F-16 chasing a Chinooks (lol), their F-18s were very close by and they would have violated our borders, engaged with our fighters and give these choppers time to escape.

Our chips were down that day. That's the truth.

This article isn't worth a salt. He is just trying to feel 'good' for being part of something he thinks was unprecedented.

The pilot is just trying to make some money, after this article I am sure he will be invited by some news channel to tell his part of the story and become a hero (remember Americans like heroes) or even write a book on the raid like the navy seal did.

 

[MastanKhan]

Man that was a serious question what I asked earlier. If you talk like that with your kids, that's great but respond a little more sensibly or by your age. Show me a link or something I could read. Not your emotions.

Hi,

Indeed the CIA will print out a letter to confirm that for you---waiting for their response and I will forward it to you.

The pilot is just trying to make some money, after this article I am sure he will be invited by some news channel to tell his part of the story and become a hero (remember Americans like heroes) or even write a book on the raid like the navy seal did.

Hi,

You cannot just make money like that---. The information will be screened & vetted by the news agency first---and then the person would be allowed to speak---.

It is not like being on a pakistani TV channel---.

 

[SQ8]

I see your point.

However, Pakistani F-16 pilots are not just average everyday trainees. They are seasoned pilots with lots of hours of training which includes close air support.

The problem is, while these choppers were sitting inside Abbottabad for 20-25 minutes, they could have been taken out by a variety of means. A strafing run by our single fighter would have rendered these helicopters useless.

None of this happened because Army knew whats happening and F-16s were'nt allowed to even engage. Whats the point of chasing a fleeing slow moving aircraft after it spends half an hour in your territory, and you're sitting in a fighter?

As for air combat basics, a couple of AIM-9L's was more than enough to pick up the Chinook's heat signature. 30 degrees or not, sidewinders pull in excess of 70g's so targetting can never be a challenge.

All i'm saying is, this hunt never took place, simply because Americans would never risk their choppers and men to go inside Pakistan WITHOUT air cover unless they have an understanding on the diplomatic level that there will be no military response..

EDIT: I have not yet touched the night capability of F-16s and other Pakistani assets. Your theory was true if we were in 60s or 70s with F-6s.

Let’s separate the debate of whether this happened or not from whether it’s possible or not.

Since the “Tom clancy” type stories have and will continue to come out about the incident.

As for our F-16’s and their pilots - you have your close sources as I have mine and we always focus on understating our capabilities and skillsets here.

That being said, I would disagree with whether that still pertains to effective application of those skill sets against a low flying helicopter in mountainous terrain at night. The key terms low altitudes, mountainous elevations and night aren’t good combination even with NVG’s and high boresight IR seekers.

To effectively use a 9M( let alone the 9L) in May where the average ground temperature at night is still mid 20’s is difficult unless you have an excellent radar track of the target. If the chopper ducks down into the trees then next to impossible to detect with Radar unless you’re already flying over it.
Finally there is IR suppression and Jamming itself mounted on the MH-47’s used.
https://www.davis-eng.com/docs/Infrared Signature Supression for Aircraft.pdf

Which would further reduce the ability of a legacy sidewinder’s seeker to detect a chopper stopped mid air in terrain.

Sure, once it has picked up the signature and is off the rails within high PK parameters; even the 9L is a nightmare to evade for a machine chugging along at 80 knots. Although the MH-47 is helped a little by a plethora of IRCMs.

So I am not discounting our pilot’s ability or our assets but restating that a LOT of things were not in our favor that night which would have made getting a kill on these Chinooks difficult. Whether this mirch masala actually happened is another case.

However, the 160th SOAR(if it was the unit of these Chinooks) has some of the best helicopter pilots on earth.. period. Their equipment, training and pilot quality is second to none. These are guys who do practice evasion techniques in the desert, mountains and tree tops regularly against simulated Amraams and Aim- 9x - and are taught the best possible ways to defeat them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Let’s separate the debate of whether this happened or not from whether it’s possible or not.

Since the “Tom clancy” type stories have and will continue to come out about the incident.

As for our F-16’s and their pilots - you have your close sources as I have mine and we always focus on understating our capabilities and skillsets here.

That being said, I would disagree with whether that still pertains to effective application of those skill sets against a low flying helicopter in mountainous terrain at night. The key terms low altitudes, mountainous elevations and night aren’t good combination even with NVG’s and high boresight IR seekers.

To effectively use a 9M( let alone the 9L) in May where the average ground temperature at night is still mid 20’s is difficult unless you have an excellent radar track of the target. If the chopper ducks down into the trees then next to impossible to detect with Radar unless you’re already flying over it.
Finally there is IR suppression and Jamming itself mounted on the MH-47’s used.
https://www.davis-eng.com/docs/Infrared Signature Supression for Aircraft.pdf

Which would further reduce the ability of a legacy sidewinder’s seeker to detect a chopper stopped mid air in terrain.

Sure, once it has picked up the signature and is off the rails within high PK parameters; even the 9L is a nightmare to evade for a machine chugging along at 80 knots. Although the MH-47 is helped a little by a plethora of IRCMs.

So I am not discounting our pilot’s ability or our assets but restating that a LOT of things were not in our favor that night which would have made getting a kill on these Chinooks difficult. Whether this mirch masala actually happened is another case.

However, the 160th SOAR(if it was the unit of these Chinooks) has some of the best helicopter pilots on earth.. period. Their equipment, training and pilot quality is second to none. These are guys who do practice evasion techniques in the desert, mountains and tree tops regularly against simulated Amraams and Aim- 9x - and are taught the best possible ways to defeat them.

Hi,

Not all Tom Clancy type stories are fiction---.

When I first started reading Dale Brown---the modified F15's the B52 bombers the B1 bombers in his books were a work of fiction---but they were not---.

They were real---only that he was 20 years ahead of what was coming out---.

You know the biggest buyer of these works of fiction is---CHINA---.

Do you know what the largest source of information leakage is---these so called works of fiction---.

Even though all books by ex military or agency personal are vetted---but the PhD sitting on the other side at times needs only a piece of missing information to complete the package---.

Sometimes the truth is so crazy and outrageous that it becomes unbelievable---like in case of the "kill switches" on air craft---.

 

[SQ8]

But the PAF has many assets other than F-16s if it really wanted to get the job done. Once the chopper is located, a formation or multiple formations flying overhead can simply saturate the area with gun fire. There is a lot of empty space between Abbottabad and Afghanistan. Even with radar jamming, the Mirages are NV capable and could use IR signatures to locate them.

If they were well prepared to meet this incursion.. yes. But Pakistan was compromised in many more ways than just our airspace that day.

Hi,

Not all Tom Clancy type stories are fiction---.

When I first started reading Dale Brown---the modified F15's the B52 bombers the B1 bombers in his books were a work of fiction---but they were not---.

They were real---only that he was 20 years ahead of what was coming out---.

You know the biggest buyer of these works of fiction is---CHINA---.

Do you know what the largest source of information leakage is---these so called works of fiction---.

Even though all books by ex military or agency personal are vetted---but the PhD sitting on the other side at times needs only a piece of missing information to complete the package---.

Sometimes the truth is so crazy and outrageous that it becomes unbelievable---like in case of the "kill switches" on air craft---.

While the capabilities of what is flying out of Groom Lake or in the hands of Nellis test squadrons is not discounted.. the Tom Clancy type stories are those involving extremely unlikely scenarios or wins. As Abbotabad showed, the Commanche design derived UH-60 still went down and it required regular MH-47G’s to set up a FARP inside our territory.

What is being discounted is not theoretical or actual plasma reflection panels on drones flying right over our nuclear sites undetected , but whether regular MH-47 Chinooks can or cannot evade a F-16 in difficult terrain at night.

 

[MastanKhan]

If they were well prepared to meet this incursion.. yes. But Pakistan was compromised in many more ways than just our airspace that day.


While the capabilities of what is flying out of Groom Lake or in the hands of Nellis test squadrons is not discounted.. the Tom Clancy type stories are those involving extremely unlikely scenarios or wins. As Abbotabad showed, the Commanche design derived UH-60 still went down and it required regular MH-47G’s to set up a FARP inside our territory.

What is being discounted is not theoretical or actual plasma reflection panels on drones flying right over our nuclear sites undetected , but whether regular MH-47 Chinooks can or cannot evade a F-16 in difficult terrain at night.

Hi,

The chopper going down at Abbotabad was similar to what happened to the choppers in iran for the rescue mission after the US hostages were taken---.

The thing is that many take it as a setback for the americans---but the americans make it a learning experience---trying not to make it happen again---.

But then just like the Tomahawk cruise missile gift---other gifts have to arrive either from one source---the drones---the tail rotors and skin of the helicopter---the un-exploded spice bomb---these are gifts that pakistan receives from these unwanted ventures.

This I call is part of " Manifest Destiny " for pakistan---.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

Indeed the CIA will print out a letter to confirm that for you---waiting for their response and I will forward it to you.



Hi,

You cannot just make money like that---. The information will be screened & vetted by the news agency first---and then the person would be allowed to speak---.

It is not like being on a pakistani TV channel---.

Cheeky and tyrannical. I meant any link to posts you've written in the past.

 

[MastanKhan]

Cheeky and tyrannical. I meant any link to posts you've written in the past.

They are here on the forum my man---.

 

[crankthatskunk]

You will be surprised to learn about (and be in shock) what kind of shit they have pulled through in different theaters. Do not jump to premature conclusions. WE are not talking about Indians here.

Let me tell you this; this was a mere trailer. They had numerous ways to attack and destroy that compound from a distance and WE wouldn't have known a damn thing. However, many proposals were shot down during deliberations in favor of least costly approach. They weren't trying to level the entire Abbottabad block in the process.

Certain aspects of American military capabilities approach Sci-Fi levels of SHOCK and AWE for real.

If you say so. I am sure you have superior knowledge. And I have wasted all my life in the West, never learning a thing. Do you know how many technical and professional qualifications I have!!
When they pull something other than what they did, i will comment on that. As much as this incident is concerned, there had been literally hundreds of loopholes which impossible to plug for the Yanks.

Nobody ever said that Chinook were "stealth". They landed in Kaala Dacca and stayed there anything close to 1 hour. All the local seen them, but Pakistani army was incapable to see them!!

Ok, the attack helicopters were stealth, we can understand on the way, coming in they evaded radar, detection whatever you wanna say. But what happened after operation started. Even Pakistani journalists were aware within mins.
45 mins in operation, plus another 1 hour to flight back to Afghanistan, PAF and army was sleeping!!

And then there is massive smoking gun, the "destroyed" helicopter. Have you seen the wreckage in the compound!!
Any one can came out of such accident!! Even if they did, how did they boarded the remaining one helicopter with a dead body, which takes space of 3 people!!

Yes, i know nothing. But you certainly know all the art and crafts of the Americans. I stand corrected, thank you.

 

[LeGenD]

If you say so. I am sure you have superior knowledge. And I have wasted all my life in the West, never learning a thing. Do you know how many technical and professional qualifications I have!!
When they pull something other than what they did, i will comment on that. As much as this incident is concerned, there had been literally hundreds of loopholes which impossible to plug for the Yanks.

Nobody ever said that Chinook were "stealth". They landed in Kaala Dacca and stayed there anything close to 1 hour. All the local seen them, but Pakistani army was incapable to see them!!

Ok, the attack helicopters were stealth, we can understand on the way, coming in they evaded radar, detection whatever you wanna say. But what happened after operation started. Even Pakistani journalists were aware within mins.
45 mins in operation, plus another 1 hour to flight back to Afghanistan, PAF and army was sleeping!!

And then there is massive smoking gun, the "destroyed" helicopter. Have you seen the wreckage in the compound!!
Any one can came out of such accident!! Even if they did, how did they boarded the remaining one helicopter with a dead body, which takes space of 3 people!!

Yes, i know nothing. But you certainly know all the art and crafts of the Americans. I stand corrected, thank you.

Sir,

I am not questioning your personal credentials (or that of anybody). However, how many are privy to American Military Industrial Complex and classified American military projects? What WE understand at a personal level, will never be enough.

There are no loopholes in American accounts (Governmental + Military); ignoring journalist spins to it. Pakistan's own Abbottabad Commission Report have similar findings - consistent with American accounts (Governmental + Military) but it also digs much deeper into Pakistani context, issues, and limitations in relation.

Our own are unfortunately giving unusual spins to the event without even bothering to study what happened - many do not know which sources to consider in this. They are being misled by journalist accounts and word-of-mouth narratives. I can provide you links of content which should be studied.

Every helicopter they used in this operation was designed to evade radar detection (and more). If somebody saw one, how the hell he would know? Human senses do not function in the Electronic Warfare spectrum (just visual).

And I am sure that not many people are trotting out there in country terrain in midnight, so do not bother with these claims. There weren't many eye-witnesses to movements of American helicopters until two of them reached the suspect Abbottabad compound and American special forces commenced their activities (exchange of fire and explosions in the compound). The first one crashed in the compound due to:

"Many of the basics of the operation are well established at this point. Famously, two heavily modified stealthy Black Hawk helicopters were first to arrive at the compound and inserted the main raiding force. One of these helicopters subsequently crashed after experiencing a condition known as vortex ring state. Englen says the ambient temperature was hotter than expected, which can also impact a helicopter's available lift, and the stealth Black Hawk had more fuel and personnel on board than initially planned, all contributing to the accident." - JOSEPH TREVITHICK

Now, nobody is expecting a foreign military to be operating so deep inside Pakistan. Those who saw something would be thinking - Pakistan Army is up to something. At most, Police will show up due to sounds of explosions and such.

Military movements are contingent on what radar systems are telling them. If radar systems are not telling them much and they are alerted to unsual activity, they will dispatch a team to investigate the relevant hotspot. However, do you think that Americans were waiting for Pakistani responders to the scene and take selfies with them? They were supposed to do their job and get out ASAP. The massive explosion in the compound (people continue to allude to) was about 40 minutes into operation [Americans blew up the fallen helicopter] and boarded the remaining article to leave. It was this blast that drew far more attention but it will take some time for security forces to do something about it.

Two PAF jets were eventually scrambled to search for suspect helicopters (now 3 in total) and two of these reached Afghanistan without much difficulty. The account in question in this discourse is of the helicopter which had a close call with one of the PAF F-16s while attempting to reach Afghanistan. And the pilot have blurted out that EW is a thing and it makes difference.

Scores of members have issued juvenile responses in relation. This show how many are privy to the event in question (almost NIL), and I am surprised at a general lack of understanding of how military works. Only one member @Socra (very intelligent guy) was willing to look at things through scientific lens. I am surprised, and I am not even in the army (just tech-savvy to a limited extent via my own IT literacy). Mujhay samaj aa gai baat leikin mujh sey ziada samajdaar logg kuyun nahin samaj pai.

So this thread in itself show HOW much the nation understand this matter, and WHY we were unable to stop Americans deep inside. WE are like helicopter yeh helicopter woh - they suck. Sorry brother, expect many more surprises in the future with this kind of mentality (God forbid). I rest my case, brother.

EDIT: WE need to learn to look at things through scientific lens on a national level, and NOT through political lens like always which is an unfortunate habit of ours. I will expand on this part soon to the benefit of all. This is very important consideration.

 

[Windjammer]

Hi,

That is your expertise---so you talk about it---and I will listen---.

I have been talking about 'kill switch' issue for the last 15 years over here---so you guys did not get schooling from me---. Looks like you boys were busy watching girls and Porno---.

Hope you know that MODS also have a kill switch and if you repeatedly keep crossing the threshold of insanity, one of them might just put you out of your misery.

 

[truthfollower]

They are here on the forum my man---.

last year when i joined this forum my accounts were hacked and now this year again accounts were hacked.

 

[TsAr]

Question to all the posters here, for a moment lets assume that F-16 was able to detect and get a lock on the chopper, do you think eve then PAF would have shot down the American Chopper?

 

[SIPRA]

Question to all the posters here, for a moment lets assume that F-16 was able to detect and get a lock on the chopper, do you think eve then PAF would have shot down the American Chopper?

No.