Narrowing PAF Gap V IAF by 2015

[Bull]

Sir, i know a lot about economics, its my area of interest.

Mine too. Cheers

Loans increasing isn't that much of a problem, if it can be compensated with economic growth. But yeah if there is no or less economic growth, then we have problems.

Well i guess your growth has been affected right. hence these loans would be a problem.

And as for Musharaf era, the figures were not as glorified or cooked up as are said. People here on ground in Pakistan could literally see the development done in that era as well as the massive expansion of the job market. It has been the blunder of the current govt that we are in such a problem, not due to Musharaf. Musharaf provided a sound base to further take on the economic activity, but due to the decisions by this govt, all progress has been lost.

The most widely said word was that the figures quoted in % where higher because the base year was changed. How can the growth disappear when the regime changes, even in recession the tangible results stay.

As said previously many times, Pakistan has great potential and still huge space to generate hundred of billions of rupees extra revenue which can result us taking no loans rather we can pay back our loans, but it depends on the economic managers how they run the show.

Every country has there own fairy tales or excuses, for India its the 7 lakh crores hidden in Swiss banks, for your nation it might be something else. Unless you have it you cant say you will have it and cant benefit from it.

So its not Pakistan's fault, its the fault of the people who are running the show badly, Pakistan has everything.

I dont know how both are different ?

 

[STD]

Mark,


What is the major difference that makes you think,China is a future power(Which i agree) and India is not(Which i don't and many in the world don't agree with you,but you do)?

 

[Quwa]

Mark,


What is the major difference that makes you think,China is a future power(Which i agree) and India is not(Which i don't and many in the world don't agree with you,but you do)?

I didn't say China will be a superpower (at least not as soon as people seem to think). I said it will consolidate itself as the leading power in a few regions (namely Far East Asia, Central Asia (i.e. SCO) and maybe even Asian Pacific if it is a little daring). With India, it is not going to be crossing over China that soon is it, and it will be relegated 2nd to China in these regions. Realistically, what is there after China of heavy power and prestige? Also, G20 will allow China to sort out arrangements with the West with regards to Africa and the Middle East.

That said, India will also receive concessions that will allow it to improve, but to assume the role of superpower? Nope. The former G7 will never let it go that easily and that quickly, the G20 is simply their way to take advantage of India and China, or at most, numb them down. Same with WTO in a sense and unfortunately China, India, Brazil, Russia etc, all fell into the hole. If anything though, India MIGHT be able to end up like South Korea and Japan in the very-very long-term, i.e. be wealthy, be a strong economic power, have a powerful military...but have a decisive voice on global affairs? Not so much... That said, that is actually the dream of those who did start G20...to see the world's countries (including Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc) to become like the Asian Tigers in the sense of looking nice (so the people live well), looking fierce (good military to satisfy egos) but be generally caged. Just think of it as middle class South Asian people in the U.S...they're there, they're quite wealthy and intelligent...but are they that influential and important in national decision making relative to their capacities? Nope.

Behind all their noise over competition and usurping the West, no one wants to destabilize the world to the point of total collapse. The Western states are tricky manipulators of global affairs, they will make sure to use G20 to their full advantage just as they have World Bank, IMF, their private banks, etc.

 

[INDIAISM]

Every country has there own fairy tales or excuses, for India its the 7 lakh crores hidden in Swiss banks, for your nation it might be something else. Unless you have it you cant say you will have it and cant benefit from it.

correction its 1.8 trillion dollars---82 lac crores.........and at present we r looking for 300 billion dollars to improve the basic infrastructure of our country.........

 

[aks18]

correction its 1.8 trillion dollars---82 lac crores.........and at present we r looking for 300 billion dollars to improve the basic infrastructure of our country.........

our politicans would have more then 300 billion dollars in swiss accounts

 

[DeathGod]

1.I am not here to prove my credibility to anyone, i am here to learn unlike Indian members here who try their utmost best to lecture us Pakistanis on how superior India is in every field. Just look at your post, its full of pure arrogance and bull sh**.

2.Go through this thread and read the responses of the Indian Members, you will understand my point.

3.PAC not having the capability to develop their own avionics, outdated JF17 Airframe and reliability issues with ROSE Upgraded Mirages. If this is not arrogance than what is it, its clear that you clearly didnt even bother to research but were bold enough to lecture us . Just go through Antibody and Mark's posts, they have already debunked all your claims in detail.

1. I never lectured anyone. Quite contrary it was you who aleedged me of thinking with my oh so Indian cap on.

2. Done that. Cant see your point.

3. I put forth what I beleive in and on the same grounds which I use to evaluate IAF. I think their is a difference in being arrogant and being straight-forward. I would have been arrogant if I would have said that IAF's Mig-21 Bison can take care of JF-17.I would have been arrogant if I said that Indian Mirages are much better than PAF's. I would have been arrogant if I would have said that Mig-29's are better than PAF F-16. I didnt say any of it because I dont beleive in the same. But I beleive that Su-30 is head over shoulders than anything that PAF has and that IAF isnt only numerically superior to PAF but also qualitatively. Again I would be arrogant if I disregard PAf's pilot being inferior to IAF's but I am certainly not doing that.

I somehow find it hard as to how much a few of us like to live in complete ignorance. Do you seriously beleive that those 80's era Mirages are any good and dont have any reliability problem? From what I know about aircrafts I cant see them being very potent esp. the ageing airframes.
JF-17 is based on F-16 that you or I cant change. Both of us know that how F-16 is not the best air superiority fighter in the world esp with advent of Flanker series .

If you really come here to learn then present facts. Name calling should not be a forte for you.

You want to learn then read the following posts by Shebazi2001

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/13878-bvr-capabilities-paf-2.html

 

[INDIAISM]

our politicans would have more then 300 billion dollars in swiss accounts

till year 2007
Top five
India—- $1,456 billion
Russia —$ 470 billion
UK ——-$390 billion
Ukraine - $100 billion
China —–$ 96 billion
aaaaaaaa i realy hate this figure..........we r at the top were we should b at the bottom..............

 

[SQ8]

1. I never lectured anyone. Quite contrary it was you who aleedged me of thinking with my oh so Indian cap on.

2. Done that. Cant see your point.

3. I put forth what I beleive in and on the same grounds which I use to evaluate IAF. I think their is a difference in being arrogant and being straight-forward. I would have been arrogant if I would have said that IAF's Mig-21 Bison can take care of JF-17.I would have been arrogant if I said that Indian Mirages are much better than PAF's. I would have been arrogant if I would have said that Mig-29's are better than PAF F-16. I didnt say any of it because I dont beleive in the same. But I beleive that Su-30 is head over shoulders than anything that PAF has and that IAF isnt only numerically superior to PAF but also qualitatively. Again I would be arrogant if I disregard PAf's pilot being inferior to IAF's but I am certainly not doing that.

I somehow find it hard as to how much a few of us like to live in complete ignorance. Do you seriously beleive that those 80's era Mirages are any good and dont have any reliability problem? From what I know about aircrafts I cant see them being very potent esp. the ageing airframes.
JF-17 is based on F-16 that you or I cant change. Both of us know that how F-16 is not the best air superiority fighter in the world esp with advent of Flanker series .

If you really come here to learn then present facts. Name calling should not be a forte for you.

You want to learn then read the following posts by Shebazi2001

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/13878-bvr-capabilities-paf-2.html

I found Mr Shebazi's assessments completely off the mark about the status of BVR in PAF back in 2008.
While he was quick to stress the importance of BVR combat, he would have done well with a bit more probing into the PAF.
Not only does a BVR capability exist, its operational on the least suspected of fighters as well.

 

[Manticore]

I found Mr Shebazi's assessments completely off the mark about the status of BVR in PAF back in 2008.
While he was quick to stress the importance of BVR combat, he would have done well with a bit more probing into the PAF.
Not only does a BVR capability exist, its operational on the least suspected of fighters as well.

i read a couple of years back,on this forum, regarding the detailed paf anti bvr measures polished by paf boys exercising with tuaf--- can some serious member throw some light on it-- thanking you guys


[hahaha serious -- actually wanted to type senior!]


secondly , does underpowered f c k 1 have dsi?
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...ou-guys-think-about-f-2-1-a-2.html#post431247

 

[aks18]

till year 2007
Top five
India—- $1,456 billion
Russia —$ 470 billion
UK ——-$390 billion
Ukraine - $100 billion
China —–$ 96 billion
aaaaaaaa i realy hate this figure..........we r at the top were we should b at the bottom..............

i dnt agree with this above rating of black money in swiss accounts coz sum sources claims pakistanis have more then 200 billion dollars in swiss accounts

 

[SQ8]

BVR tactics we introduced in syllabus properly after Kargil.. then improved upon via interaction with friendly forces. TuAF is an example.

 

[rockstarIN]

I didn't say China will be a superpower (at least not as soon as people seem to think). I said it will consolidate itself as the leading power in a few regions (namely Far East Asia, Central Asia (i.e. SCO) and maybe even Asian Pacific if it is a little daring). With India, it is not going to be crossing over China that soon is it, and it will be relegated 2nd to China in these regions. Realistically, what is there after China of heavy power and prestige? Also, G20 will allow China to sort out arrangements with the West with regards to Africa and the Middle East.

That said, India will also receive concessions that will allow it to improve, but to assume the role of superpower? Nope. The former G7 will never let it go that easily and that quickly, the G20 is simply their way to take advantage of India and China, or at most, numb them down. Same with WTO in a sense and unfortunately China, India, Brazil, Russia etc, all fell into the hole. If anything though, India MIGHT be able to end up like South Korea and Japan in the very-very long-term, i.e. be wealthy, be a strong economic power, have a powerful military...but have a decisive voice on global affairs? Not so much... That said, that is actually the dream of those who did start G20...to see the world's countries (including Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc) to become like the Asian Tigers in the sense of looking nice (so the people live well), looking fierce (good military to satisfy egos) but be generally caged. Just think of it as middle class South Asian people in the U.S...they're there, they're quite wealthy and intelligent...but are they that influential and important in national decision making relative to their capacities? Nope.

Behind all their noise over competition and usurping the West, no one wants to destabilize the world to the point of total collapse. The Western states are tricky manipulators of global affairs, they will make sure to use G20 to their full advantage just as they have World Bank, IMF, their private banks, etc.

Im not debating that India or China will be superpowers or not, just to write down some factors:-

If anything though, India MIGHT be able to end up like South Korea and Japan in the very-very long-term, i.e. be wealthy, be a strong economic power, have a powerful military...but have a decisive voice on global affairs? Not so much


Becoming a major power is not one day or few years phenomenon. It will take its sweet time. The difference between India and Japan/South Korea is that the latter is under US security umbrella, but India and China is not. Japan & S. Korea is under treat from China & N.Korea all the time and they are dependable on USA. India never falls such trap even US trying to pull India by saying China is a treat to them. One more point is that India & China is nuclear powers.

Who has got voices in global affairs now? only US, Russia and China now. Remember the Iran issue, US has to take the latter into confidence.

 

[rockstarIN]

Asians now think that they all are at par with westerners, there is no more admiration which Vasco-Da-Gama got once upon a time.

 

[deckingraj]

Umm, if USA or NATO invades or tries to invade North Korea or Iran, they may not face the repercussions themselves but their allies might.

North Korea can attack and destroy Seoul in the South, out, in a matter of minutes.

Are you sure about it??? And you are calling me naive??

World Military Strength Ranking

Iran not having good relations with Mid-East countries, can attack or retaliate against them.

And how different was this threat from that of Iraq??? Wasn't it the invasion of Quwait which triggered the war with Iraq in the first place....Comon whom are your trying to fool here???

I am not saying something alien...All i am saying is that Military strength doesn't mean you will go to war at drop of hat....I even gave you example of China and India(so that your ego don't get a beating)...China is not attacking us even though they don't have border dispute with us, not because we are militarily at the same level but because of the cost of war vs the benfits involved....

In case of Afghanistan....the only trouble was the refugees in Pakistan and destabilizing neighbors......which we clearly see today in Pakistan. Now you don't want entire Mid-East destabilized because [/b]you would have created more problems than solutions.[/b]

Anyway, your lack of depth shows how much you really know about wars.

I don't know what shall i do apart from smiling at your comprehensive skills....You just said what i have been trying to say from post one....Irrespective of Military Strength you don't go to war at drop of Hat....You see the pros and cons....Similarly India not going to war with Pak at mumbai should not be taken as lack of military capability....can you with great knowledge about wars and everything else enlighten me what you disagree with here????

3 Mirage 2000 and 2 Su-30?

Can't back it with proof, so as per forum rule you can discard my information, however if you can, trust me on that....

Maybe you should search forum because members in the PAF have clarified the planes that were intercepted and locked on...but because of Rules of Engagement you can't engage them, go figure.

And you were calling me the one who lack information ....Yes please figure out the rules of engagement....I know about IAF very well and can tell you about that in Layman's term....If you violate my air-space either you will have to surender(so that i can inspect if it was genuine mistake or some mischief) or you will be shot down if you refuse to comply with first option....Same argument and procedure was used for Atlantique which was unarmed....Here we are talking about Armed much capable fighters of the likes of MKI's....Here is an interesting report for u..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/iaf-scrambles-migs-after-pak-violates-nofly-zone/10939/

May be time to update rules of engagement information...We have this no-fly zone and both Air-forces scrambles their Jets the moment they find any intrusion of no-fly-zone(10 KM within your own border)...Once you in my Air-space i have the mandate to shoot you down if you don't comply with my rules i.e. Surrender!!!

Now please save us all from beating the dead horse will ya??? The reason PAF did not engage IAF was because this would have meant full-fledge war....In short there orders were(should have been) keep maximum restraint.....I do not see their behaviour as sign of weakness...My only question why you treating Indian response as sign of weakness????

and about joining the ranks of people who are delusional, well, you are free to go....no one is forcing you here....i hope so.

Yeah you are right...However personal attacks were started by you....Now i can also say the same ...no one is forcing you to reply back, no???

 

[Donatello]

Referring to your very first point, in your reply, read this about what i meant...


South Korea vs. North Korea: What Another Korean War Would Look Like


With thousands of artillery across the border, the overall military strength doesn't matter. South needs to be ready 24/7. This is unlike India observing Pakistan troop movements hours before or days before.


rest i am sure you can help yourself by doing a more thorough research.